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  • Raiding, the last few weeks.

    This will be long, but hopefully worth it.

    I joined TG about 2 Months ago now. The first month, I was playing frequently, on almost every raid. And I was loving it. This last month, while i have been raiding less frequently, due to schedule changes at work, I've not been having nearly as much fun as I did initially. Things have been changing. We're having issues filling BWL, and tried the random 40mans system. We've been having raid leaders changed around a bit. We've been doing almost no scheduled 20mans lately (though this is changing this week, finally). And we'd heard mention that there was talk about our dkp system, and prioritization system. We've also had some issues with some players disappearing, as well as new players, such as chair's warrior, Tonk, stepping in.

    While it's good to be trying to make things better....I feel left in the dark. I see changes happening, and no explanation being handed down. I wonder why something that seemed to be working just fine, is now changed, and, IMO, for the worse. It seems that the officers are all reading what we say here..and i'm sure it's being taken into account...but why aren't we hearing back? even if it's tentative, uncertain things..just what's currently under debate, and what the officer's see as issues. Why do we not know why changes are being made, or what changes are under consideration?

    The random 40 mans...I know that was a test thing...and it seems, by this weeks schedules, that it's not going to be continuing...but it still seems like it was jumped into without enough explanation or communication. And we dont' know what sort of feedback the officers got from it yet, and I know that I personally, would like to be kept up to date. What sort of information has been gleaned? did it improve, or worsen raid signups and performance?

    The changes in raid leaders lately...Arkamis has not been leading any raids, and has stepped down from an officer position. The details of this has not been made clear, or discussed with the guild. Frankly, Arkamis was my favorite raid leader, and IMO, a major reason we were progressing in BWL the way we were. He was a bit tougher than other leaders, true, but when we wiped, we actually discussed what went wrong and how to fix it...something that seems to not happen so much anymore. And I'm quite sure i'm not the only one who feels this way...So why was these changes not discussed with the guild in more detail, the people who are being lead? should we not have a say in who leads us? I mean..this is nothing agaisnt any of our other leaders, and I certainly understand the need for nights with a more relaxed feel to them. But if we ever expect to see progress we need some leaders who are more critical, expect more of our individual and group performance, and gives us more of a push to succeed. Criticizm can be constructive, and too much lately, i've seen nothing but "rebuff and try it again", without any discussion of what went wrong or how to improve.

    And 20 man raids...It seems this problem is being solved, but still worth discussion. Between November 8th, and 22nd, we had absolutely 0 scheduled twenty mans. Now, I know we need to also be focusing on progressing in BWL and upgrading lesser equipped people from MC, but the 20 mans are a lot easier to get started, and contain many equivalent pieces (especially AQ20, which also has the skill books, and who's rep rewards are MC equivalent). And the 20 mans provide a nice casual environment, while still having that guild raid feel. I know that personally, I tend to have a better time there, myself.

    I'm just concerned, because things are changing, and the repercussions have not all seemed positive. I'd like to see more communication coming our way, more reasons "why" and the officers' opinions on the effects these changes are having. This guild is large, and encompasses a wide variety of players. We each have different needs, and it's obvious that the guild will have to prioritize some things, and sometimes some hard decisions will have to be made. But it's easier to accept a change you dislike when i'ts presented with careful, thought-out reasoning and feedback.

  • #2
    Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

    Deleo, I'm going to try to answer some of your questions as best i can, not so much as an officer, but more as a fellow guildie.

    For starters, the reasons for the random 40 man raids WERE explained, in guild, on comms, and Crebis made a post about it being a test as well. numerous people in the guild suggested it as a way of boosting our numbers so we'd be able to attempt BWL (And to put more of a focus on the raid... as opposed to focusing on where we were raiding. it was an excersize in flexibility. The benefits of the random 40 (and it's downfalls) were... shall we say, discussed... to the extreme, in the forums by the guild (at least, by people who felt strongly enough to comment) and, now that the test is over, the Raid committee will be gathering to discuss the outcome of that test shortly. As a member of the raid committee, I promise that as soon as we've reached our verdict, i will personally post it. I'm all about letting the guild know what's going on.

    As for the 20 mans, I can't really say why more of those weren't posted. perhaps we were trying to avoid the burn out, perhaps there didn't seem to be enough interest. but just because a run isn't scheduled, doesn't mean we can't just fire one up on the fly.

    As for Arks raid leading, and in as much, MY raid leading... Well, i can't comment on that, as it sounds like me blasting my own horn. I'm not going to do that. If you want to know why Ark stepped down, Ask Ark. Believe me when i say this much though, the choice to have me step up and start leading (and co-leading even) was made after a large amount of input from officers and guildies alike. Again, i'm sorry if you don't like my style. When we wipe, i'm well aware of what actually causes it, and if it's a big thing, then i talk about it. if it's a small thing, i send a constructive whisper to the people i know are involved. It's how i do things. So believe me when i say that I'm actually dealing with the problems that we have when we have them. I'm not ignoring them.

    Anyways, those are the answers that i can give you. If you have any other questions you want answered, send me a PM, or a whisper in game, or make another post. :)
    _________________



    I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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    • #3
      Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

      In order to progress, when need to have as many people upgraded in Tier 1 gear from MC. I know some may or may not like MC, but it is necessary to gear everyone up, so we have the numbers when people need a night off. No one needs to get burnt out, the more people that are geared the more flexible we become as a guild.

      It takes time and there is plenty of guilds going through the same thing atm. This time of year is hard to get 40man together, so maybe 20man is more in line with what needs to be done.

      BC, is not going to be a cure-all like alot people think. There will still be a need for 40man, specially AQ40 and Naxx. It will be much easier to get 25 people together without question. Alot of people will be starting the grind towards 70, so raiding will occur even less, least for while.

      I understand where your coming from Deleo. I am new myself and seen somethings happen that left me scratching my head, wondering what is going on. I think that is with every guild though, officers have alot on their plate.

      I would say if we plan on doing BWL, specify that we will do the first two bosses. Once they are truly on farm status and more people are geared, start working towards the 3rd boss.

      Stick in there and trust the people around you, if you have questions ask one of the officers or guildies, they may or may not have the answers.
      "As Above, So Below"

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      • #4
        Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

        This past weekend has been a holiday, which means we've been lacking the manpower, as nearly every other guild, to put together a 40 man raid. The weekend before, we were highly successful in putting together numerous BWL raids, even with the random 40 enacted, as well as completely clear out MC. We struggled on Vael, which I honestly attribute to the fact that we haven't seen him with a consistent group for a couple of weeks and needed to get our bearings again. Had this weekend not been a holiday, I would have expected to see is downing him. Consistency is important to our progress.

        I have many other things to say, but need to log in to get into tonight's raid- I hope to see you guys there!

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        • #5
          Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

          It's more the lack of communication than anything else that disturbs me. I see decisions made without posts on the forums accompanying them, explaining what's going on, why, and what the expected consequences are. I see questions unasked. I just want a more open line of communication between officers and members. I'm more than willing to try changing things around...assuming things are considering and expressed in a manner that allows others to see the reasoning behind it.

          Currently, over the last few weeks, it seems that the guild as a whole has been floundering a little, unsure of where we're going from here, especially with 2.0 WoW and BC coming up around the corner. We've seen a plethora of alts raiding, gearing up, while Mains stagnate. It's looking worrisome, and I think a more open communication between the guild leadership, and the guild members, would go a long way to seeing where we want to move on from here.

          I'd even suggest having an Officer position whose sole responbility is to act as a go between, working to make sure the concerns of the members are being fully understood, and that the members with these concerns are assured that the officers understand, making sure that there are detailed, indepth posts concerning every issue the guild is working on, and what the current concerns and positions on those issues are.

          Just adding, to help clarify: I know we need to still do MC, regardless of my personal dislike for it. I know there's still upgrades for a lot of people. But we're geared enough to be pushing farther into BWL then we are, if people show up for it, and give it a bit more. IT's not MC. it's not goign to be as easy. But we can do it.
          Last edited by ZariusZer0; 11-26-2006, 08:39 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

            first off... the past 2 weekends (last weekend and this weekend) were a holiday weekend... i personally was not here to attend a single raid on either weekend(save tonight).......along with a large amount of our better-geared frequent raiders..... THAT ASIDE


            this is a transitional growing pain for the guild... it happens to every guild(from what i have heard) when making the big(very big) leap from doing weekly-full-clear-mc to the struggle to lrn2BWL... it happens.. but we will be farming nef in no time....
            it has no effect on arkamis stepping down... the struggle happened BEFORE he stopped leading/stepped down.. for reasons unknown (connected? maybe.. but i wont answer that)... just know this... this SAME THING happened to us when we started MC..... rags? hard? hah.... just hold tight.... and have fun.. we will be killing stuff in BWL very VERY soon... so long as u bring your 'A' game... and dont complain
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            • #7
              Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

              Originally posted by ZariusZer0 View Post
              It's more the lack of communication than anything else that disturbs me. I see decisions made without posts on the forums accompanying them, explaining what's going on, why, and what the expected consequences are. I see questions unasked. I just want a more open line of communication between officers and members. I'm more than willing to try changing things around...assuming things are considering and expressed in a manner that allows others to see the reasoning behind it.

              Currently, over the last few weeks, it seems that the guild as a whole has been floundering a little, unsure of where we're going from here, especially with 2.0 WoW and BC coming up around the corner. We've seen a plethora of alts raiding, gearing up, while Mains stagnate. It's looking worrisome, and I think a more open communication between the guild leadership, and the guild members, would go a long way to seeing where we want to move on from here.

              I'd even suggest having an Officer position whose sole responbility is to act as a go between, working to make sure the concerns of the members are being fully understood, and that the members with these concerns are assured that the officers understand, making sure that there are detailed, indepth posts concerning every issue the guild is working on, and what the current concerns and positions on those issues are.

              Just adding, to help clarify: I know we need to still do MC, regardless of my personal dislike for it. I know there's still upgrades for a lot of people. But we're geared enough to be pushing farther into BWL then we are, if people show up for it, and give it a bit more. IT's not MC. it's not goign to be as easy. But we can do it.
              could you tell me even one single event/decision that the officers made.. that has not been clearly stated in a post on the forums? or a single event not made public to the guild? i cant... and if u can.. please do tell me so
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              • #8
                Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

                Be aware, some of the info. is deep inside already existing threads. For the most part I believe the info. is available, it's just not always readily accesible unless ur active in the forums.

                This is an unfortunate result of there not being a very good posting OR emailing system in-game, which is something I think WoW is in DESPERATE need of.

                So, in reality, it's a fault of the game really... because u cant force everyone to read every thread, or be on when an officer is speaking on TS.

                Granted, it'd be nice to get a line-item breakdown in separate forum threads about what goes on in the annals of the officer lounge. But I'm sure not every little thing needs to be posted about.

                Lastly, Deleo is a mage like me... and we tend to be a bit "quiet"... we havent even had a real CL in quite a while. So any news from the top can be a bit hard to come by. As of now, I believe Crim is the new CL and Zedd still has officer ability... dunno who the alt is. Of course, the absolute best avenue is just to chat with ur CL; I really believe a part of ur thread is because of this.

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                • #9
                  Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

                  First off I'd like to start by saying the need to get 'geared up' is over stated too much. Personally, while I have 7/8 T1 and everything a hunter would critically need from MC, I still raid in blues while using [item]Jagged Arrow[/item]. In fact, until I start losing my top spot on the damage meters to other hunters I'll continue to wear blues. Why? Because that's the 'sweet spot' for me. I don't really need to wear all 7/8 GS while towing my Rhok and Lok around on raids. Actually, it would be more of a burden to do so because my DPS ability would FAR outstrip the tank's ability to hold aggro. Unlike rogues we don't have a cheap feint we can tap every few seconds to keep ourselves off the top aggro spots. We do have feign death and disengage, but they have a tendency to resist not to mention costing mana and disrupting a shot cycle pattern. Since my gear allows me to go from start to finish in a fight and maintain high DPS without catching too much aggro or running out of mana prematurely it serves me well enough. The fact that blues are cheaper to repair than purples is also something to consider.

                  Signups and attendance have been lack luster lately because of several reasons.
                  1) Its the end of November. Fall semester for college students ends in December and that means term papers and finals. People are dropping off to pay attention to their studies.
                  2) WoW 2.0 and BC are coming out just around the corner with drastic changes for everyone. Some people like scoping out the future of WoW and are trying to get ready for the transition to the new stuff. The faster they can make the transition and smoother they do it, the better off they will be when it comes around.
                  3) Its the holiday season. End of fall/winter is the BEST time for gamers to play the best the year has to offer. Its alright to stick with WoW when the pickings are slim and they're just tossing out crap to keep busy. Its something else entirely when games like Gears of War, Final Fantasy 12, and Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess are out. This year is especially good because the PS3 and Wii are finally out as well and people are taking their new systems for a spin.
                  4) Again...its the holiday season. People want to spend time with family and I know everyone has relatives or friends paying them a visit. We have to find some time to grind up that family and friends rep after all.
                  5) It amuses me to no end to say "I saw this coming a mile away". We're starting to reach that saturation point where people on their mains no longer need to hit the instances for gear they give. They then stop signing up because they don't need the gear and start to work on alts or something else fun. In fact, we've been seeing a rise in alt attendance simply because people are getting tired of going with their mains and getting no loot and less DKP in the process. Its seems its better to let an ungeared alt attend for the extra DKP we get by not DEing drops than to go with your main on the off chance that 1 item you need drops and the people ahead of you pass.

                  The only thing I can say in response to it is: It will pass in time. Once things settle down in life and in game we'll be able to continue with business as usual. Towards the beginning of January (after New Years) we'll see an increase in attendance as the holiday season winds down to a close. Of course, then we'll start to lose people once BC comes out end of January. I'd say towards march we'll get back to a steady program.


                  As for the officer-member gap in communication? Meh...that's always been there. Its actually a lot easier than Suilung makes it out for forum messages to be seen for important announcements. I mean, we do have a board for announcements and stickies for things that really need to be read. It would be nice if an officer comes out and explains some of their 'back room' discussions, but that's just extra work for them to handle. A lot of what the officers do is kept hush hush not because of the need to do so, but because of the lack of interest in what they are doing. We had a survey we all took, yet no one knows the results except the officers. We're going to rework the DKP system, but no one knows how or the real reasons why except the officers. Apparently they're also going to revise the alts/mains rule, but its been silent on that end too other than an off comment by Orion sometime ago that 'they're thinking about it'. Loot priority is also being looked over by someone, for some reason, to do something. Meh...who knows what they're doing. Actually the thought process for those changes don't really need to be released either. I mean, we have no say in what we get anyhow. When the changes are released and we can see the results of their work THEN we can start posting things we see and start pestering them for answers. If everyone had a say in the development then nothing would really get done because they'd be too busy trying to please everyone.
                  My sanity is not in question...
                  It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                  Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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                  • #10
                    Re: Raiding, the last few weeks.

                    Ok, I am going to put this as simply as I can.

                    If you have a question for an officer, ask. I have always said that I would give people straight answers to questions they ask me, you may not like the answer, but you will get one.

                    There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes in the officer corps, and from what I have seen in the short time I have been an officer, they want to make sure its right before they put it up for public display. That is a good thing, because it is talked through, discussed and organized before it ever goes out. I have been in guilds where rash decisions lead to massive problems.

                    So, simple answer again, If you want to know something, ask.
                    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

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