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Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

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  • Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

    Just startin this thread like I said on TS to reflect on what went on and how we can improve all encounters in the evening, from Razor to Broodlord. For those that dont know what AAR means, it stands for After-Action Report. Basically a debriefing, but with more of a brainstorming flavor.

    So add your thoughts and suggestions as it pertains to a TACTICAL nature please. If you have personal gripes, whines, moans, etc. then be an adult and simply write them directly to the person this involves or like Manny said, to an officer. This thread is for tactical-raid improvement only.


    That being said... Razorgore fight IMO (from mage perspective):
    Went very well because of our malleability during the fight. It was an occassion where many times we would wipe but we didnt. On the Mage end we stationed a frost mage in the center to protect kiters and healers via Frost Novas and low-rank cones of cold. If agg was needed to be pulled off, then maximum insta flamestrike, etc. The RL smartly set up groups such that the dmg was still even in every corner even short 1 warlock, this includes rogues of course as Sajier described in-raid.
    During the raid we lost all of the hunters, but since we held our ground in the corners most nme mages were already dead. And having Gaze in the center bought us time to join the kite chain later then usual. Once the nme mages were dead all mages then joined the chain and focused on protecting the remaining tanks and healers that drew aggro.

    -The main issue I saw with this is the BEST way to save the tanks and limit healer aggro is Frost Nova. In our 1st wipe this worked in saving center healers directly, but the healers didnt know to run (Luna). If a Frost Nova is casted (and it should only be done if absolutely necessary) then said mage MUST inform the healer to run. A few droods in my corners may remember my screams on TS to run after you've drawn agg and I FN. Healers shouldnt look back or worry about being stunned; by the time the FN wears off regardless if ur stunned or not u should have no problem running and healing yourself. In this manner, NO healers should die during the raid. Low-rank Cones of Cold are GREAT for slowing down mobs w/o drawing aggro, but it really takes concentration to place it well enough to have max. impact. As well, it's not enough sometimes if the friendly has been stunned. Use your judgement on this I think. I generally use the CoCs when I'm coming from the center to keep Tanks alive, focusing the attack on the mobs at the tank.
    -As for tank protection, it's best just to run alongside with them and make them aware when ur pulling/slowing mobs that get too close. It's only really necessary during this phase if a tank gets stunned or mobs get to them from the sides.

    Vael fight:
    I believe this went super smooth once we didnt lose so many healers initially. We did have one wipe where it could be said we should've still succeeded, but I believe indirectly it still doomed the raid as much of our DPS is negated once that grps. healer dies. Unfortunately, if pickup heals are called then that means a tank might not be getting them. For this, I simply make it known on TS that our healer is dead and leave it to the healers and RL to sort it out. RLs MAY want to think about shifting healers into DPS-heavy grps if that grps healer goes down. If there's a priest in a hunter-group and the mage/lock grps healer is dead, then it makes sense to move the priest out of the hunter grp and into the caster grp. This buys us DMG over time and is the less of 2 evils IMO. Anyways, i have no idea how that end of the fight is done so maybe a RL or healer can chime in.
    -Supreme Power flasks: we MUST ween ourselves off of these. These things go for 60G apiece. The mats are super rare. We SHOULD have enough dmg regardless as long as enough casters show up for the raid and we dont lose our healing. Yes, it's all about healing... mages literally will swap gear dependant on how much and who we've got healing our grp. Example: My grp had a priest (Wintrow) and oomkin. We set our gear up for 110 FR and piled on the dmg. When Wintrow died, we were gimped severely because our FR wasnt enough for simple pickup heals. Good healing = more dmg. Dead/Bad healing = less dmg and wipe at 8%.

    Suppression room:
    <sigh> This is where it gets sticky. Personally, my toon is built for BWL. He's a full arcane aoe caster-tank. If I wanted I could put nearly 1000 dmg per instant cast PER aoe target if I'm in an oomkin grp. I learned by the end of last night that I have to tone it down or else I die - repeatedly. The issue arises however, that in order to a) pull whelps away from dragons b) speed up our movements that healing MUST shift to mages/locks. It's a serious balancing act when we've got dragonkin nearby. Initially, arcane explosion mages HAVE to pull whelps away from the dragonkin because tanks engage the dragons usually with whelps following. This works great because the aoe wont agg the dragon. When we're in our alcoves either the tank always must pull the dragon away, the mage must pull the whelps away, OR we can just aoe them all dead quickly if heals go to casters. Again, it's all healer dependent and something I think we need to work on in our strat. How much pwnage do you want the casters to deal??
    -another note: When the RL calls for us to speed up, heals MUST go to mages or mages will die and then guess who dies next?? yup... healers. Tanks will never be on top the agg. list except if they're tanking a dragon (and they'll only be agging the dragon really). As such, I think they should just always be assigned healing and NEVER deviate. This way the rest of the healing can be more agile with the casters. When tanks CANT pull dragonkin away from the group (when we're suppressed) mages cant pull whelps away either because I BELIEVE blink wont work (right?). So, only way out is MASSIVE quick dmg or the raid will wipe. Massive quick dmg = more caster heals.
    FR: I think for ME I'll be wearing more FR for dealing with the dragonkin and to automatically lessen my dmg. Killin 2 birds with one stone.


    So, that's all I can think of on the mage end right now. None of this is gospel of course. Just want to gain the knowledge i need to be a killin machine. So those with ideas, viewpoints, corrections... shout it out. I know we like to have definitive STRATS, but I'm of the belief that unless we're spontaneous we will definitely wipe when we dont need to. Better to be prepared for every situation.

    This definitely aint MC...
    Last edited by Gambit7; 12-02-2006, 06:35 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

    /RL chime in.
    I know that you mages are powerful, but shifting a healer out of the hoontar group and into your group would screw up the fight just as much. hunters have crazy DPS, AND the ability to feign out if they get to high on the threat meter, so it's important to keep them up as well.

    Just my two cents.
    _________________



    I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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    • #3
      Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

      Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
      /RL chime in.
      I know that you mages are powerful, but shifting a healer out of the hoontar group and into your group would screw up the fight just as much. hunters have crazy DPS, AND the ability to feign out if they get to high on the threat meter, so it's important to keep them up as well.

      Just my two cents.
      uh oh!! do I sense a mage vs. hunter dmg. fight?? :)
      nah, we need everyone up I agree... I dont fully understand dmg. mechanics (although I tend to think many of the mages can outdamage most huntards... <cough> i mean hunters - with no pets) so I'm a newb in these regards. How the groups shift is completely the RL's call.

      I assume during Vael we're still doing the 2-RL routine where one can shift grps and one can monitor and give orders? I remember that one fight when u and Ark teamed up and Vael died because of it.

      As for feign vs. mage aggro... we can generally pile the dmg without agg. because of arcane spells and low-agg ice casts where a hunter's only solution is feign (which costs precious TIME). I've only seen 1 instance of an over-agged Mage and that was with Dewidkat after while bein in an oomkin grp. critted a million times while on the juice (oils and flasks) casting ice. I think Zeeg might've done it once also on Arcane Power. As for me, I'll be up in the top 5 in the beginning of the fight and then slowly drop out due to pure Arcane subtlety - so no worries.

      What would happen if we mixed hunters in with mages/locks?

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      • #4
        Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

        No Mage vs. h00ntar fight needed.
        it's not odd to see hoontars and mages fighting for the top spot on damage charts, so again, it's a Six to one half dozen arrangement.

        As for swapping groups, I was flying solo last night, jimmying the first two groups as tanks came and went, and there were a couple people who got moved into healer groups, but all in all, the group set up staid the same.

        Mixing up the ranged casters wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be horribly beneficial either. if you'd like Siulung, I can show you the ropes in the Vael fight next time, and you'll be able to see what the RL's see and how we generally cope with it. (you stop seeing people, and instead see little spikes on the damage charts :P )
        _________________



        I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

          Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
          No Mage vs. h00ntar fight needed.
          it's not odd to see hoontars and mages fighting for the top spot on damage charts, so again, it's a Six to one half dozen arrangement.

          As for swapping groups, I was flying solo last night, jimmying the first two groups as tanks came and went, and there were a couple people who got moved into healer groups, but all in all, the group set up staid the same.

          Mixing up the ranged casters wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be horribly beneficial either. if you'd like Siulung, I can show you the ropes in the Vael fight next time, and you'll be able to see what the RL's see and how we generally cope with it. (you stop seeing people, and instead see little spikes on the damage charts :P )
          Can more then one person move people around?? Forgive my newbishness but I forget. If that's possible then maybe we could have someone taking care of the ranged people. Say, if the healer in caster grp "A" dies, then those people can be slowly shifted to caster grp "B" when a member there dies to make space, etc. This will minimize the pickup heals.
          Last edited by Gambit7; 12-02-2006, 08:21 PM. Reason: minimuze aint a word

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          • #6
            Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

            No, only the leader can move people.
            Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

            | | |

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            • #7
              Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

              Well in a way the assistants can as well, but it wouldn't be a pretty sight.

              /kick player 1
              /kick player 2
              /invite player 2 *takes player 1 spot*
              /invite player 1 *takes player 2 spot*

              Yeah...very very ugly.

              And Suilung? You are SO getting a misdirection shot right after Gaviin. I don't think your comment on hunter damage is even worth a rebuttal. :P
              My sanity is not in question...
              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

                just my two cents .... when i try to do damage... there isnt a mage that comes close.. the only thing htat can hold a candel to me is gaviin
                ( who.. as of late.. passes me)
                powered by Windows 7

                . . . .

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                • #9
                  Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

                  Originally posted by Chair View Post
                  just my two cents .... when i try to do damage... there isnt a mage that comes close.. the only thing htat can hold a candel to me is gaviin
                  ( who.. as of late.. passes me)
                  In a fire resisted fight pre-patch you might be right. Our best fire mages have something to say about that though in a non-resisted fight. :)
                  In a non-INTERRUPTED fight our best ice-casters are always in the top 5 if they're alive in the end.

                  As for post-patch... Vael will be on farm status as long as you can keep the dps casters and 5 warriors alive IMO; He will die very quickly as our dmg is largely gettin buffed (especially arcane tree). No more gettin Vael to 1&#37; and praying, those days are over. I'm saying goodbye to supreme power pots.

                  Anyways, this AAR wasnt about who dmgs the most really... just strat. I will tell you this definitively though; if you pile our best DPS casters in 1 grp with 1 good healer, that healer dies quickly, and nothing is done about it... Vael will likely not go down unless we're a caster rich raid. I've seen that happen over and over when even if the tanks are alive when they should be, SOMEHOW we just dont have the dmg. That is why. I guess you could say the same in the huntards group. :)

                  I tell ya' I dont envy the healers' job(s) in BWL... what a phreakin nightmare. If ever a healer wanted to say "all I do is spam-heal", BWL is NOT the place to say that.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

                    Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
                    Mixing up the ranged casters wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be horribly beneficial either. if you'd like Siulung, I can show you the ropes in the Vael fight next time, and you'll be able to see what the RL's see and how we generally cope with it. (you stop seeing people, and instead see little spikes on the damage charts :P )
                    Me? Heck no... I'm scared of that stuff...
                    Also, I cant help much in the Vael fight because I'm spamming too many buttons to begin with, maximizing dmg and staying alive.
                    No sense in havin to be all by your lonesome though in that fight. One person should be callin out BAs, one person shifting groups, and one overall RL monitoring the raid as a whole.
                    The caveat is, when 2 or 3 people are handling the raid they can become less effective depending what their job in the raid is. Obviously, if someone is shifting groups it's tough for them to heal tanks, etc. Whoever THAT person is should have the least button-mashing in the fight to do already. IMO that would be the best group-shifter. Pally or resto drood maybe?? Autoshooting hunter?? I dunno.

                    Ur more then capable of handlin it all Manny, but if u feel encumbered in the least bit I think you should employ some help there. Ur call man.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

                      I'm about to slap Suilung around for making assumptions about other classes and his own imaginary damage meters.

                      Its funny, but I see him spout figures and the 'mages roxor!' spiel and I get a nice little chuckle out of it.



                      If you're going to make sweeping incorrect generalizations then at least get them right.

                      Paladins and Druids have to rely on single target healing since they don't get very good group heals like priests. That means they are pressed harder than priests to keep heals up since they have to gague how each person is falling individually and step up or step back on their heals to compensate.

                      Hunters, with unlimited mana and aggro dropping abilities, are CONSTANTLY pushing buttons. Okay, I might get a 3 second break during aimed shot on the rotation, but most of our skills are instance casts. Aimed -> Multi -> Serpent -> Aimed -> Multi -> etc etc etc doesn't leave much time to pause and do something else. And in case you're wondering hunters get about 60&#37; of their damage output purely with timing similar to rogues. Rogues have to time their energy regeneration with skills, but since each skill causes an instant attack that works in addition to autoattack they only worry about the regeneration. Hunters have the 'fun' job of timing our shots between using our skills based on weapon speed, cast times, and cooldowns. Waiting too long before using a skill would push the cast time into your autoshot time resulting in the cooldown pushing back the next cast to push back the autoshot and onwards to drop your DPS significantly since we get all our DPS from pulling off shots concurrently with our skills. This makes things interesting because Aimed Shot has a 3 second cast time and if you start to delay your shots you will, ultimately do less damage. I can't really comment much on warriors since they have to do the reverse of rogues and gague their rage generation.

                      Now, on Vael warriors and rogues have it easier than hunters surprisingly. Their regen is pretty much constant at the level of "crapload" while hunters still deal with the juggling of cast times and autoshots.

                      If we're going to be making sweeping generalizations of who has it 'the easiest' we can probably stick with the arcane mage or holy nova priests as the laziest in a vael fight.

                      An arcane mage pretty much spams Arcane missiles and channels it over 5 seconds 6 times in a row before breaking the cycle with a fire ward every 30 seconds. Wow...1 button pressed every 5 with a 6th every 30. Yay.

                      Holy Nova priests just spam holy nova every second. That's just boring.

                      Then again, the number 1 person who has it the easiest is the first tank since they'll 100% of the time be spending nearly 2 minutes dead at Vael's feet.
                      My sanity is not in question...
                      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Aar: Bwl 12/1/06

                        Just a note... most of the Holy Nova priests are probably throwing in a PoH and flash healing people in other groups as well as the MT...

                        Not saying its as difficult as other classes but I don't think Siu was trying to make a "my job is harder than your job thread" as much as trying to discuss ways that our successful kill could go even better.

                        I love the AARs myself. Its fun for me to think about our strats and try and figure out tweaks to make them even smoother.

                        My two cents on the actual topic:

                        I wasn't there for Razor so I cannot be much help there. Though I like our strat in general and I think it works really well.

                        Vael:
                        Putting groups together on the fly seems to make sense if the RL can do it. The other aspects of "management" don't seem to take too much away. Gav has generally been calling out threat and it doesn't seem like his damage is affected. The healers do try and work in heals to others outside of their groups as other healers go down. Post patch, healing their own group and throwing around HoTs like they're throwing beads at a Mardi Gras parade seems like the way to go.

                        Suppresion Room:
                        Throwing shield to the mages to start off with can help. I try and pop shields on as many mages as I can. We've done it with success in ZG but maybe there would be some benefit here as well to the old assign a mage to a healer for shielding/healing.
                        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                        ...and other distractions of various levels.

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