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  • Tanking problems to come?

    If last night's ZG run is any indication, we're going to have some troubles with tanking in the immediate future. Chair can certainly speak to this a bit better, but we were having some serious issues with the MT holding aggro on bosses in ZG. We wiped four times on the spider boss (yes, the spider boss) before calling the raid. We just couldn't manage the transitions where she'd charge to the range/healer group. The off-tank would take a little longer than usual to grab her, allowing her to smack a few casters in the meantime; and then it was really tough for our MT to reestablish aggro from the off-tank, making damaging back in very touch and go.

    So yeah, we might have a bit of a learning period here, figuring out how to deal with the new tanking dynamics. Perhaps people's specs were just a little off. Who knows. Regardless, ZG sucked, and I hope our other raids this week/weekend don't mimic that. :row__639:
    Ninja

  • #2
    Re: Tanking problems to come?

    IMO, that fight will never be an accurate assessment of problems with tanking in general. I have been there many times with a decent group, and wiped. All it takes is a few resisted taunts, ppl out of position, ppl damaging too early, etc.. to cause a wipe.

    The most critical role, in that fight, is the "catcher". He/She is responsible for keeping the attention of the spider spawns and picking up the boss for a quick return to the MT. If a taunt is resisted or someone is still damaging during that transition, a few members will most likely go down. If that happens to be a main healer, it is usually a wipe.

    I don't know what happend last night with your group, but so far I have seen nothing to indicate that there any major problems with tanking.
    Uglyduck - Spec varies - Currently Prot
    MMORPG = Many Men Online Role-Playing as Girls

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    • #3
      Re: Tanking problems to come?

      Yeah I hear ya, Duck. The things that concerned me were the fact that we haven't wiped on that boss in a looong time (let alone four times in a row), as well as the fact that our tanks were expressing surprise and disappointment with their rage generation and aggro-holding abilities. I think everyone was doing their jobs as they had come to know them... but it just wasn't working, which is why I'm concerned. Again, maybe we'll just have to re-learn how to do these fights. Or who knows... maybe our group last night just wasn't gelling. Time will tell, I suppose.
      Ninja

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      • #4
        Re: Tanking problems to come?

        We just are going to have to adjust, give tanks more time to build up aggro and with the massive increase in damage that all classes seem to be demonstrating, everyone is going to have to be much more careful about their aggro status.

        With the rage normalization slowing down aggro abilities, and the massive increase in damage, it means that its a double edged sword, and we have to be a lot more careful.

        What I was thinking about doing at some point tonight was going into MC with 5 or 10 people and testing some things on the first 2 giants, and I would love any help I can get. I would need a couple tanks, and I am hoping to have 3-4 priests (want to test stacking renews to find the full effect we are going to have with that).

        If we can get some high DPS people (rogues/mages) it would be a good place to test some of these things.
        Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

        | | |

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        • #5
          Re: Tanking problems to come?

          One of the big post-patch themes in the Warrior Forums has been the difficulty in generating rage because of Blizz's "normalization " of rage generation...which although not the same as aggro is closely related. Less rage = less "spells"/special attacks=less damage=less aggro.

          All the new +rage high level talents still don't seem to get warriors back to where they were pre-patch.
          Beep


          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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          • #6
            Re: Tanking problems to come?

            I went up to Andorhal briefly last night to try out the new Arms tree and was devastated by my inability to generate rage.

            If the aggro issue isn't a bug it's yet another kick in the jewels to the warrior class by Blizzard. You'd think if they were going to nerf the bejesus out of the warriors of dps ability they'd at least buff the snot out of their tankage. Sadly it appears that neither has happened. :(
            “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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            • #7
              Re: Tanking problems to come?

              If that's indeed true, this is going to be a major pain in the ass due to the fact that most damage classes have, if anything, gotten more powerful (as Sajier pointed out). People will really have to watch themselves, which is obviously going to nerf our overall damage output a bit.
              Ninja

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              • #8
                Re: Tanking problems to come?

                Originally posted by Gaviin View Post
                If that's indeed true, this is going to be a major pain in the ass due to the fact that most damage classes have, if anything, gotten more powerful (as Sajier pointed out). People will really have to watch themselves, which is obviously going to nerf our overall damage output a bit.
                We'll have to be smarter and more observant about initiating damage from the main DPS classes... a LOT smarter and LOT more observant. It may actually require us to have slower damage up front before full, all-out damage late in the fight (shades of Broodlord!!!).

                With better overall raid specs, we'll just have to use all those uber-healing talents with longer fights...and hope that the scaling of warrior aggro at higher levels gets better.
                Beep


                Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                • #9
                  Re: Tanking problems to come?

                  It's just inconceivable to me that Blizzard would ask a Warrior to put 41 points into a tree to get a talent that's basically not much more effective, at twice the cost, of a regular sunder.

                  IMO, Devastate should be a freaking aggro lock. You put 5 sunders up on a mob, pop on a couple of Devastates and that mob should be yours till it dies or someone else chains 5 crits.

                  What I don't get is that it seemed to work that way in the TBC build that I tried.
                  “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                  • #10
                    Re: Tanking problems to come?

                    *points at Beep and laughs* HAHAHAHAHAAHA Uber healing talents HAHAHAHAH thats funny! :)

                    Seeing as most priests haven't seen any real improvement on our healing, and in fact saw a big nerf with the down rank changes, I think you will find that healers are going to have a rough go of it now. We will be using far more mana and generate a great deal of wasted overheal due to the UI locks and changes that have been made.

                    This weekend is going to be a very difficult weekend, and people need to be patient as we re-learn how to play as a group. Tanks are going to have aggro issues, priests and healers are going to have to learn how to control their mana again, and DPS/Casters is going to have to be on their toes not to kill us with over agg.

                    I look forward to the challenge :)
                    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                    | | |

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tanking problems to come?

                      Strangely enough, Bear, I haven't had any issues with Rage generation on my fully specced arms warrior. In fact, i had TOO much rage for a little while.

                      In other news, My paladin is having fun as a prot spec. I don't have an accurate estimate of how well he can hold aggro in non undead instances, So i'd like to be given a chance to tank some mobs/bosses in MC to see how well i hold up. :D
                      _________________



                      I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tanking problems to come?

                        Originally posted by Manetheren View Post
                        Strangely enough, Bear, I haven't had any issues with Rage generation on my fully specced arms warrior. In fact, i had TOO much rage for a little while.

                        In other news, My paladin is having fun as a prot spec. I don't have an accurate estimate of how well he can hold aggro in non undead instances, So i'd like to be given a chance to tank some mobs/bosses in MC to see how well i hold up. :D
                        It could very well be that the "normalization" had a greater impact due to the disparity I had with the mobs I was killing. I think the skellies in Andorhal are only mid-50's. This issue wasn't as noticeable from the dmg side but rather the generation from the dmg taken side.
                        “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tanking problems to come?

                          Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
                          It could very well be that the "normalization" had a greater impact due to the disparity I had with the mobs I was killing. I think the skellies in Andorhal are only mid-50's. This issue wasn't as noticeable from the dmg side but rather the generation from the dmg taken side.
                          I don't think that the rage normalization affects rage generated from damage taken. It only normalizes the rage generated from damage dealt. From what I understand, you no longer generate rage from instant attacks, and the rage generated from auto-attack "white damage" has been adjusted to be a specific amount of rage per swing normalized to your weapon's swing speed.

                          For example, based on my understanding, [item]Corpsemaker[/item] generates the same amount of rage as [item]High Warlord's Greatsword[/item] per auto-attack swing with the rage normalization.... and this makes me sad :(
                          Uglyduck - Spec varies - Currently Prot
                          MMORPG = Many Men Online Role-Playing as Girls

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tanking problems to come?

                            Originally posted by duck View Post
                            I don't think that the rage normalization affects rage generated from damage taken. It only normalizes the rage generated from damage dealt. From what I understand, you no longer generate rage from instant attacks, and the rage generated from auto-attack "white damage" has been adjusted to be a specific amount of rage per swing normalized to your weapon's swing speed.

                            For example, based on my understanding, [item]Corpsemaker[/item] generates the same amount of rage as [item]High Warlord's Greatsword[/item] per auto-attack swing with the rage normalization.... and this makes me sad :(
                            Well that would explain some of the decreased rage now that I'm essentially spamming MS.
                            “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tanking problems to come?

                              Actually I believe the exact target of the normalization was the 'crit' factor for rage. If you deal more damage, you would get more rage therefore the best way to deal more damage and get more rage was to crit more. The normalization pulled things back towards what you'd get if you were decently geared with an acceptable crit rate. This was a targeted nerf against those PvP warriors with 40-50% crit rates, but it seems to have far reach affects.

                              Not that I've really played much with my warrior alts to have a much deeper understanding of it.

                              What it boils down to really is that warriors in MC/BWL or higher gear are 'overgeared' for level 60 and having their rage generation pull back slightly from crits and white damage because their damage is 'too high'. Once BC comes out and they get a few levels that will swing in the other direction as they become 'undergeared' level 64-65 characters.

                              Originally posted by Drysc
                              The normalization is based around an internal number of how much rage a warrior could be expected to normally generate at each given level per DPS. Although that number is steadily increasing with each level it isn’t a linear curve as it paces an average modified by gear progression. In general if you’re geared well and doing more normal white damage than that internal number then it’s going to pull the rage numbers back a bit towards the norm, and on the opposite end if you’re geared poorly you would actually be seeing a boost trying to catch you up. The amount of rage reduction and increase through normal attacks is in fact pretty small, but the reduction in crit based rage generation will probably be quite noticeable for those emphasizing (and thus focusing on) crit-based damage. Those in the beta right now matching their intended damage output are seeing an approximate 50% increase in rage generation from crits. That will of course fluctuate as damage goes above or below the “sweet spot”.

                              The warrior class is unique as the fundamental mechanic behind it is ‘damage begets damage’. More damage now causes more damage later, and because of that gear can have a profound effect on how a warrior performs. That is still staying true throughout this normalization, but the far and away extremes are being pulled back in a bit to what we intended to be achievable.
                              My sanity is not in question...
                              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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