Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The e-peen meter and you

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The e-peen meter and you

    What's an e-peen meter? Its another name for the damagemeter since the meter serves no purpose other than an ego boost. The "I placed X in the raid" really has no relevance at all.

    There are currently two commonly used damage meters. SWstats and Damagemeter. Both work along similar principles, but were held in different regard by the people who used them.

    SWstats and Damagemeter both observe and record all damage seen by the person running it. That means within an aproximate 35-40 yard range you can see and review all damage done. This of course lends itself to a problem. If someone is standing outside your visible range you do not see their damage and thus do not get a recording to your damagemeter. Therefore, a way to syncronize the date needed to be found.

    The old SWstats syncronized itself with the CTRa channel. This means it automatically tapped itself into the streaming information channel that was shared by, practically, everyone in the raid. No real maintanance was needed since you just set it and forget it.

    The old Damagemeter syncronized itself with a personally created channel. This means someone had to create a channel and invite other people to join the channel for the sync to work. If the versions differed too much some damagemeters would throw out refusals to join the channel and you'd get different data.

    Both systems worked on the principle that a sync channel would send the data to all raid members at the same time and thus sync all the data regardless of your position. You just need someone managing it and making sure the meter was cleared before hand or you'd get contamination from old data. Then it was set it, forget it, and report it.


    That's all in the past since to reduce server lag they redid the channel system. CTRa and other mods no longer have private channels to sync data and make use of other features of the server to save bandwidth. I like to call this new system the 'majority contamination' system.

    Here's basically how I observe the system working. Each instance of SWstats or Damagemeter is a stand alone counter. That means that within the limitation of your damage veiwing you will record the damage and your damagemeter will update accordingly. However since you can't really get accurate information due to range and the mod isn't that smart they placed a safeguard to prevent contamination from private data that was not cleared. Every once in a while during combat your damagemeter would 'pulse' and send out a query for information to nearby damagemeters of the same type. This would, in turn, return with the information recorded by the damagemeters questioned. Your damagemeter would then check the information it recieved against its own and either accept or veto the information based on the number of people who reported similar information.

    Example: 3 rogues, 2 warriors, and a hunter are running damagemeters that are synced during the Luci fight. All 3 rogues and both the hunters are in melee range with Luci so when their meters pulse they all get similar information. This 'hub' would then share missing information and make the damage viewing radius bigger (maybe 1 warrior on the front of Luci missed 3 priests that were recorded by the 2 rogues backstabing him). However, the hunter is out of range of the sync pulses so is unable to compare information with the others. The fight then ends and everyone gathers close to the corpse to get loot. When the next sync pulse goes off the warriors and rogues will have significantly different numbers than the hunter. This will create a comparison vote of 5 vs 1. So if the rogues and warriors saw 10000 damage done by the hunter when the hunter records themselves at around 60000 the damagemeter will determine that the 50000 damage is private data from another source and will roll back the hunter's data. All 6 will then sync showing the hunter doing only 10000 damage.

    Now why do I call it a majority contamination system? Well lets add a mage to the mix. The mage is running in and out to try and avoid the curse so they bounce between being in and out of range of the hunter and melee hub. When getting close to the melee hub the pulse will go out and show a 5:1 difference in data so the melee hub will overwrite the mage's information to its highest point. If the mage runs out and into range with the hunter the pulse will show a 1:1 difference in information so both share the highest amount of damage recorded and update the information to reflect that. The mage then runs back into range of the melee hub and again shows a 5:1 difference, so the mage's information is overwritten with the increased total while the hunter information is thrown out due to majority difference. Back out again and the mage syncs with the hunter at 1:1 so both update to highest figures. Back in again and the mage gets overruled on serval figures at 5:1 majority, but gets updated by the melee hub once more. Combat ends and both the mage and hunter enter the melee hub's range. There is now a 5:2 difference in data, but records show that several syncs went out with different data reflected each time. The melee hub will overwrite the highest data synced to bring the total damage recorded up to speed, will not roll or accept the lower data from the mage and hunter. This means the melee total will overwrite the mage and hunter total for the melee, but the mage and hunter will have no effect on the melee total for the mage and hunter.


    This contamination of data would spread and cause a majority case if more people were running damagemeters at different points in the raid.


    In a nutshell: If no sync pulses are recorded in combat, any minority data will be rolled back to reflect what was recored by the majority. If sync pulses are recorded then totals go one way from the majority to the minority without any rollback occuring.

    Because fights like Luci, Magmadar, Gehennes, and Garr have hunters at max range and spread out they are typically in the minority against a large cluster of rogues and warriors. On fights like Geddon and Shaz where everyone is spread out and melee is also scattered the position is reversed and contamination goes from spot to spot instead of from a cluster to individuals. Golemagg sees another min/max range problem where a melee cluster could overwrite totals from outlying people. Sulfuron and Ragnaros is a nightmare due to vast differences in range and position for accurate recording.



    If you want to run a test to the accuracy of your damagemeter then I suggest you have both SWstats and damagemeter running. Turn off the sync option to damagemeter then clear it so it records only your data then compare the damage done shown by your SWstats and personal damagemeter at the end. I've seen difference of only 180000 damage to SWstats with 700000 recorded by my personal damagemeter. Then again, I'm a hunter who likes to sit at max range out of the way of nasty debuffs and spells.

    Also, as a rule, NEVER post damagemeters during a raid. They are for your own personal use if you have them and e-peen purposes after the raid. In fact, I suggest against even looking at the damagemeter while you are raiding. It is an e-peen meter and nothing more. If you look at it then you will subconciously try to compete with the other people shown on the meter in order to place higher. A raid is not the time or place for a 'mine is bigger' contest. We succeed by working together and taking down the objective, NOT by beating other people on damage done.
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.




  • #2
    Re: The e-peen meter and you

    In other words I think Tarenth is trying to say if you really want to do damage, then roll a warrior or rogue... oh wait maybe thats not the point he is trying to get across.

    BTW You have always done a very good job explaining everything.. thank you.
    QUOTE : "Icsist has a little shameless behavior in the past"
    Nice remark guys.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The e-peen meter and you

      Ok, Yes I have seen this problem to a HUGE extent in the previous versions of the damage meters pre-patch 2.0.1, though the difference never botherd me much I just kept the info to myself and used a whisper funtion if someone specificaly wanted the dmg meter results (or heal meter for our lovly healers).

      However, In this new patch and the brand new version of dmg meters I have found that it keeps sync no matter how far away from the others with damage meter you are! When I joined up in raid last night for example when I was in searing gorge and everyone else was already half way through MC, all the sudden my dmg meter was pinged clear, and synced to all other damage meters and brought up to date on thier total synced damage results. So right from the get go my meter was as accurate as could be. It recorded and synced from EXTREAMLY long distances without regaurd to being in range of anyone's damage meter / heal meter at all! Pretty danged nifty if ya ask me ;) I'm very happy with the change, though if your still having problems tanareth with your damage meter, might I segjust you get the most curent damage meter from Curse Gaming's web sight?

      Trust me i've done some comparitive damage meters in quite a few raids and even from being outside the instance entirly it was displaying the exact same amounts as everyone else with the damage meter. It seems that the new damage meter actualy uses the raid chat itself in order to sync with other damage meters running. By sending a ping based on who is currently in the raid itself, it seems to determine who has the damage meter and to then instantly request all damage meters comming in to clear, then be updated with the current damage already done inside the instance with the raid. It can even now go as far as to ping out and display everyone with the damage meter running! I love it!

      If you have any questions by all means send me a whisper in game or if you'd like to do a couple damage meter test or what not ;)


      PS. MY GOD you like to go into detail man o-o , though then again I have the same fault though I dont' think i'd ever have the gumption to display my thoughts like that in writtin unless I had to XD. HUGE props :P

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The e-peen meter and you

        I simply know I do a lot of damage when I pull agg off a tank in 5/9 Dreadnaught.

        Oops.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The e-peen meter and you

          I got a better idea, how about we stop worrying about them at all and focus on guild success :).

          If we down the bosses we aim at, then we succeeded, if we don't then we failed. Damage meters don't do anything to help us succeed, but they can help us fail if you are focusing on trying to be X position.

          KTM = helpful
          Damage Meters = not.
          Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

          | | |

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The e-peen meter and you

            Perhaps the hunters should stand closer together :D.

            I do agree that the meters are often over-valued by individuals. Bosses downed is the most important stat. That being said I do think they can be a important tool when used correctly. Using them to watch your stats in-comparison to others of the same class for example. If you're getting outdamaged/outhealed by a substantial amount then it could be that perhaps you need to change up part of your strategy. Perhaps a clue to chat with others in your class or your class leader about what they do. But the damage meters should never be an excuse to pull aggro - especially as a caster or hunter. Rogues shouldn't do it either, but at least the tank can grab it right back after the mob smashes the rogue into dust. When ranged damage pulls aggro all it does is draw fights out longer since you have all your melee damage chasing and not stabbing. And with the higher damage from our casters after the patch it seems like this is more of a problem.

            I don't disagree with any of the logic in your post Tarenth. But I have no idea how much fact there is in it either. Your example is a very simple one that doesn't take into account many different things. One simple counter is that all of the healers stay at max range, usually close to the hunters, and no where near the melee. That's generally quite a few pallys, druids, and priests. The ratio you use is assuming 1 solitary hunter and 5 melee. Yet in reality it would often be more people at max range than in that cluster. Sure you may not be standing right on top of all of them but there would be alot more people in range than your example indicates.
            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
            ...and other distractions of various levels.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The e-peen meter and you

              What good is DPS if there is no crowd control? If you start DPSing before main tank has enough arggo and some people die as result. What purpose did it serve? Only to slow the progress by rezzing the dead.
              "As Above, So Below"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The e-peen meter and you

                Personally I watch SWstats for the information on decursing, deaths, skill usage, and mana efficiency. Its nice information to know if your decursive is ignoring his job and you need to get some extra range or if you can count on them to keep you clean. How fast and far you can pull before needing a mana break before you start losing people due to too many deaths and durability. If I'm remembering to use all my skills, or am I gimping my self with forgeting some.

                (Dur...lets see. 2 molten giants can each be hit with serpent sting for 550 damage over 15 seconds. If reapplied that means for roughly 400 mana I'll get an extra 73.3 DPS in addition to my autoshots and skill usage. If a hunter is appointed as scorpid stinger the damage dealt to the group will drop by aproximately 5-10% throughout the raid in comparison to past raids. However always reapplying scorpid sting is important to keep the debuff on and is more mana intensive than just occasionally using Serpent sting. Therefore that job should be delegated to someone of either BM or Survival spec due to their decreased reliance on mana in comparison to MM hunters and barring that should be assigned to someone who either pulls aggro frequently or has a large mana pool and burns through it slowly so the decrease in damage stabilizes their aggro)

                Damagemeter without the sync on will tell me how much damage I'm doing (Hey look! I'm only 20k below Gaviin on his Swstats throughout the raid. Not bad for raiding in blues with 0 GS on) and how much I can trust the synced SWstats (eh...missing around 500000 damage guess Gaviin's meter is wrong). However I'm getting kinda tired of the post raid chest beating with people waving around blatently incorrect meters or asking for them during the raid.

                Accept that your damagemeter is incorrect and flawed...always.
                Do NOT post or request damage meters during the raid. Hell, avoid looking at it at all if that's possible.
                Accept the fact that even though you are 'synced' you are not truely syncronized. Data is still getting lost, you just won't notice it unless you have a control to compare it to.
                Stop with the chest beating, its annoying. Placing top on the damagemeter earns you nothing in the end so accept that fact.


                BTW, I never even look at KTM outside of the Vael fight. They're too inaccurate without someone keeping tabs on it which rarely happens. Practice and experience at aggro judgement FTW!
                My sanity is not in question...
                It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The e-peen meter and you

                  In the end, using a damage meter for the whole raid is really purposeless, and that becomes more apparant in Naxxramas.

                  We reset the meters before every boss attempt, because you CAN glean useful information from those meters on a per-class, per-fight basis. Rogue damage does not equal mage damage on the Noth fight, for example. During Noth, Mages have a high priority of decursing; as a result, they damage goes down so it means NOTHING for Rogue X to beat Mage Y.

                  However, if Mage Y *is* top damage and has a low decurse number, there's an issue that needs resolving.

                  Similarly, on Razuvious, paladins should be among the top healers, because they hold double healing duty, whereas two or three priests only have the opportunity to heal during 50% of the fight and have to save their mana for Mind Control, shielding themselves, and fading. Likewise, during this fight, there are breaks in ranged damaged, so hunters/locks/mages won't be in the top slot, but by design rogues SHOULD be.

                  Damage meters have their place if used properly. Running them throughout an entire raid serves really no purpose.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The e-peen meter and you

                    That's true, Ark. I'd say MC is the only 40-man where a raid-long damage meter could have any relevance at all. Most fights are straightforward tank and spank affairs, though there are a few (Shaz to name one) where melee does very little. But beyond MC, as Ark said, damage meters can really only be useful on a fight-by-fight basis.

                    I also agree with Pistos in that the meters can be useful to see how people compare to others of the same class. If there are consistently huuuge disparities, then something might have to be addressed.

                    And Tarenth, I'm not sure what sort of "post-raid chest-beating" you're talking about. Considering you mentioned "topping the damage charts", I can only assume you're referring to me. I've never bragged or "beat my chest" about the damage charts. I post them to guild chat (along with the healing meters) because I know that some people are interested in them. I never post them to the raid. So I don't know what you're talking about. If you think they're inaccurate, fine. But you don't have to accuse people of using them to boost their ego. That's just rude.
                    Ninja

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The e-peen meter and you

                      Thanks for the write up Tarenth.

                      I just use a personal damage meter to see what I'm doing for my own education. I like to see a breakdown of my normal/crit damage and my damage by type of skill used to give myself an idea of where I'm at and if there's something I'm missing. I never have trusted the posted meters because I have always seen noticable discrepancies between them and my personl one.

                      Sadly, since the patch I'm missing my old meter which hasn't been updated and am using one that's only showing overall damage atm. I guess I need to get one that does a full breakdown back in especially now that I have multiple gear sets I switch between depending on circumstances (curious to see what the output differences may be).
                      --
                      Life Sucks! Then You DIE!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The e-peen meter and you

                        Like I said Tarenth -- the important stat is bosses downed.

                        But before you get too huffy the original write-up was a "proof" based on an over-simplified example. I didn't argue that they were accurate just that you can't explain it away by saying "the hunters don't stand close enough therefore Gaviin's numbers are wrong".

                        As far as placing at the top I couldn't agree with you more. And sync'd meters, while certainly not 100% accurate, are much more accurate than your personal meters alone. And I'd hope everyone is trying to find that zone of maximum damage without pulling aggro off of tanks.

                        I can accept that the meters are wrong... always. But just because they aren't 100% right doesn't mean you can't get some useful information out of it. You said yourself you use it to see how decursing is going. If its completely flawed then how can you even say that information is of any value?

                        Lastly, it really doesn't seem like there's been a bunch of this epeen chest beating you refer to. And posting meters DURING raids was pretty much snuffed out a long time ago (thank god).
                        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                        ...and other distractions of various levels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The e-peen meter and you

                          Oh guys please don't get me wrong here. I don't use the meter to wage an ego war with other peeps! I souly use it for my own record to see what spell combos are working best for sustained damage and other above mentioned uses (mana, decursing, ect...)

                          Like I said before, if people want a report on healing or damage based on what I do have in the meter, then thats fine and I send a whisperd report only (though I have done a channel report on request by the mages ocasionaly :P we like to goof around like that XD)

                          I agree that the damage meter is not a good thing to work off of when it comes to the "elitist" fight (wanting to be the top of the meter). As I've found, SKILL by faaaaaaaaaaar out does pure damage. I'm so overly happy when I can see us plow through a boss like breathing air based on the quick witted skill of our players and listening to the raid leader, rather than blasting our brains out on the boss to see our name skyrocket through the damage meter (though when the boss gets to 5% or less then all's fair in war O-O! le rawr!).

                          Comment

                          Connect

                          Collapse

                          TeamSpeak 3 Server

                          Collapse

                          Advertisement

                          Collapse

                          Twitter Feed

                          Collapse

                          Working...
                          X