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  • Warrior issues

    Ok, after a few tanking runs I wanted to throw up my experience with the current state of the Warrior class. Call me a whiner, call me a baby or tell me to L3RN2PLY. This is just my opinion.

    Rage generation isn't bad, it's downright awful. It's bad in Battle and Berzerker stance but it's completely fubar in Defensive stance. I'm finding that leveling up my Alliance warrior is about as much fun as a colonoscopy. In cases where 3 sunders would hold a mob pre BC I'm finding that it takes a least 5 and a couple of Revenges to lock something on to you. If someone get's crit happy and pulls that mob off of you it's literally double the work to get it back. I also noticed last night that a taunt and a sunder is no longer sufficient to pull a mob off of someone for any period of time even with dmg off. They stick for about 5 seconds then go straight for the healer. The lack of predictable aggro is making me emo, I just don't enjoy spending the better part of a BF run spamming sunders in a frantic effort to maintain control.

    Ok, with that said I can deal with the new challenges of aggro management but there's simply one thing that's making me nuts. As difficult as it is to establish solid aggro, it's mind numbingly painful to have to wait helplessly while your rage bar replenishes. If I've got 3 mobs hitting me I should have more rage than I can spend. It's not like I'm Mortal Striking them or spamming 30 rage talents, Sunder's 10 stinking rage! I used the think that it was the fact that I had most of my Might gear and a bunch of Wrath and it was the reduced incoming damage that was causing the problem. All I know is that I'm praying that Blizzard fixes this soon cause they've sucked all the fun out of the class for me.

    If you're wondering why your tanks aren't leveling at the same pace or don't have the same fire in their bellies you need look no farther that the latest patch.

    Then again, maybe I'm just a whiner and a crappy warrior.
    “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

  • #2
    Re: Warrior issues

    Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
    Then again, maybe I'm just a whiner and a crappy warrior.
    Admitting your problem is the first step to recovery :)

    I can't say enough good things about Hitch's tanking ability or UglyDuck's ability to always stay at the top of the DPS meters on 5 man runs. They seem to never have problems with rage. Maybe you should inquire to them about their leetness :)
    Lub it on!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Warrior issues

      Originally posted by Yotion
      Admitting your problem is the first step to recovery

      I can't say enough good things about Hitch's tanking ability or UglyDuck's ability to always stay at the top of the DPS meters on 5 man runs. They seem to never have problems with rage. Maybe you should inquire to them about their leetness
      GG, Yot... now put your dress back on and heal!!!

      Originally posted by Bear
      Ok, after a few tanking runs I wanted to throw up my experience with the current state of the Warrior class. Call me a whiner, call me a baby or tell me to L3RN2PLY. This is just my opinion.
      ... seriously, enough already. If you have this much issue with playing your warrior.. STOP.

      If you wish to continue, out of some hope that it will get better playing the same way you always have, expecting the same results out of a Taunt-Sunder.. DON'T.

      Things have changed, I will admit, but it is nothing we can't handle. Your playstyle has to adjust to the dynamics of the game, as does everyone elses.

      I understand your frustration, and your need to express it. I don't however like hearing a fellow guildmate bitch and moan about every problem encountered. I have seen it from you in guild chat, warrior chat, and on these forums. I get to hear it on TS. You have complained about the lack of gear upgrades, not holding aggro, not generating enough rage.

      Find a solution to your problems.
      -can't hold aggro? make the group wait before attacking, I have a hot key that marks the FF target for the group ( helps me keep the adds on me ), I also give instructions to the group.. "wait for 4 sunders", "wait until I mark the boss to attack" etc...
      -can't generate rage? buy rage pots, respec 41pts in Arms

      Realize a few things
      You cannont hold aggro when a DPSer opens up full tilt. You cannot hold aggro on multiple mobs when they are all being hit, or your healer heals too early. You are not the only one in a group responsible for aggro.

      Anecdotal reference:
      I have MT'd BF twice now. My first time was horrible, many wipes, many deaths. Amalie saved the day on the last boss. That run brought up many of the same questions you are having. I was always out of rage, I couldn't keep aggro. The rogues made that run more difficult than it should have been.

      The second time was a joke, only one death.. to the LOLadin above who continually pulled aggro. He pulled aggro in the first boss fight, the one that mind controls... well he mindcontrolled Painnuker.. who WTFPWNed Yot with bigass fireball. It was overall a very good group. I had no issues with aggro, with the exception of a n00badin who lost his heal button. I controlled the pace through the instance and it worked very well.

      Bottom line:
      If you can't resolve your issues with your warrior, stop playing him. Play another character. You are a valued member of this community, find a role that makes you happy. :D
      Uglyduck - Spec varies - Currently Prot
      MMORPG = Many Men Online Role-Playing as Girls

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Warrior issues

        Duck,

        Thanks for your response, it's difficult to argue or find fault with your points. I guess the bottom line is that I'm not enjoying the class, it's not fun to play anymore, at least not for me. I'm really puzzled as to how the other warriors are able to enjoy this nightmare? I put the post up to see if I could get some constructive feedback as to why it seems so different for me now as opposed to a month ago. None of these things were issues for me prior to TBC. As much as I'd love to be a TG tank, I still need to have fun playing this game. I'm desperately searching for answers. I guess it is just me and I should STFU and go play something I enjoy.
        “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Warrior issues

          Bear, I feel your pain. I think all warriors do!

          At the heart of this issue is attitude. I'm working to maintain the attitude that we have the situation we are experiencing...and I have to deal with that.

          Warriors in the expansion have rage generation and aggro management issues. That seems to be a "permanent" change, at least until Blizz decides to do something about it. Their track record doesn't offer much encouragement, though. I deal with it by "accepting" that I can't "make" rage happen any better than I'm doing now. I know I'm a capable tank, but even so, I'm scrambling to respond to party situations. FWIW everyone in every party will have to learn to adjust to this new world...or accept that they will get aggro and have to deal with it.

          Duck's summary is right on the mark...party members have to learn to be a bit more patient in fights...to focus on targets...take them in turn...to not go all out nuking...AND be prepared to react if the tank loses aggro.

          I find in instances that I can hold aggro on mobs (2 or even 3) ONLY if no one else is hitting them. That's not new, btw...but the aggro lock is tenuous even then. If a hunter's pet has growl on...bye, bye warrior aggro. If a mage starts serious nuking, they will have to deal with tanking!!! Frankly, if someone has a consistent aggro-pulling problem, they will have to learn quickly to change behavior or die a lot. PUG's will be the worst situation with lack of comms and coordination being big issues. Guild parties should be better managed. While the temptation is for DPS classes to really use all their new gear-enhanced spells, etc., if they do, they WILL pull aggro. When they do, taunt/sunder/sunder/etc. will not pull it back instantly. That's our new "reality".

          In the meantime, I am focused on doing the best I can and on trying to play smart. I'm hoping that level 70 gear and talents will make some difference. I also believe that you...or anyone, for that matter...should play characters that they enjoy. If your warrior is not making you happy, then switch. This IS supposed to be recreational...right???:)

          I'm hoping you'll stick with it. I've played with you and know that you're a good, capable, smart player. Besides, you make me laugh and smile when I need some relief from the game's challenges!!
          Beep


          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Warrior issues

            Venting is very therapeutic!

            The truth is, I love the class too much to just quit it. I'm a knuckledragger at heart. I'm just going to have to find a way to suck it up and deal with it.
            “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Warrior issues

              Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
              Venting is very therapeutic!

              The truth is, I love the class too much to just quit it. I'm a knuckledragger at heart. I'm just going to have to find a way to suck it up and deal with it.
              LOL...I guess that was my point. AND, everyone else will have to be aware that aggro management in a group is not what it used to be. Tanking warriors/feral druids/tanking pallys are still the best at gaining, holding and surviving aggro...allowing the damage dealers to actually do the damage.

              IMO, this will actually get worse when we hit level 70. The damage mitigation from gear and from protection spec means that tanks will have a harder time generating rage that will allow them to do their tanking thing to build/hold aggro. It's possible that the incoming damage may be vastly greater than we have experienced thus far, but we don't know that yet. The big unanswered question is figuring out how damage mitigation from gear and talents will interact with rage/aggro creation.

              Like you, I love the class and want to tank my way through ALL the expansion content.

              While the warrior play-style issues are real...and class-specific...everyone needs to know how to handle themselves with this "new" reality.
              Beep


              Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Warrior issues

                There is the fact that in some cases, if not most, the warrior will be in the middle or a lower level than a few of the other people in the group. This is a problem because everyone, warriors included, have been spoiled with the static level and gear we had pre-TBC.

                In the old world everyone was level 60 and everyone had decent or good gear. People who ran MC made sure warriors had MC gear, people who ran BWL made sure warriors had BWL gear, people who ran AQ40 made sure warriors had AQ40 gear, and people who ran Naxx sure as hell made sure warriors had Naxx gear. MC tanking gear held up with MC damage gear and surpassed ZG/AQ20 gear. BWL was better than MC and on and on upward up the chain. Warriors rarely, if ever, had to deal with a situation where they had to tank against someone with superior gear.

                In TBC this all changed. Warriors in full might are suddenly outgeared by damage dealers in all greens/blues. MC gear will, probably, take you the first few minutes into TBC before its replaced. BWL gear might last you as far as 64. AQ40 and Naxx gear will see upgrades in the 68ish range. They therefore go into an instance slightly undergeared then the people they are trying to tank against. This is NOT the tank's fault, but the DPSer pulling aggro. If you want to compare then try having a 60 warrior tank scholo in D1 gear while a mage in T2.5 nukes. The sight...isn't pretty.

                Are their solutions? Hell yeah!

                First off if you can't tank multiple mobs then find people who can take some of the heat off you. Off tanking is still a viable strategy and as long as it's hitting an off tank it's not chasing your healer. Feral Druids and Paladins both make good tanks and can easily step in to fill the job as off tank. Hunter pets can also tank if worked up properly with skills(my wolf at level 69 has 53% damage reduction due to armor and around 5500 hp unbuffed), but they require healer love to keep functioning. Warlock pets can also tank in a pinch as well since doomguards make excellent tank substitutes with the voidwalker running a close second. Warlock pets require a tad less love than hunter pets simply because the warlock could suppliment their healing with life drain and the heals come directly from the warlock's hp which will be healed by the healer.

                Now for a personal gripe. Healers...PLEASE toss some heals to the pets that are keeping themselves between you and a messy stain on the floor. I've heard people say they have removed pets from their UI and because of that they can't monitor them . You know what? You changed your UI so you can put those pets right back in there. A lot of the time a healer just watches health bars and not the action around them. They then get surprised when the pet, convienently keeping a mob occupied, goes down and dumps aggro on the healer. Consequently the first person they blame is the tank for not holding aggro when they themselves let the off tank died by not healing it. My heal hits the pet for 325 every second for 5 seconds, that's a 5 second channeled spell for 1625 hp. Casters in steamvaults melee me for 1200 hp and my pet for around 700 a hit. Simple math tells you that if a hunter is healing that pet isn't going to last more than a few seconds longer at best. Afterwards the warrior may try to save the healer but then they have to overcome the huge gap in aggro where the pet was keeping up with the mob and the warrior wasn't. Bad things happen afterwards.

                Another solution to getting sticky aggro is to add a level 70 hunter to the group. Hell, add two if you have the space. Misdirection is a wonderful spell even if it is on a 2 minute cooldown. I have noticed that if I push myself and use a full load out with it then aggro sticks quite nicely to the tank. I believe I told Chad, but its a nice saying that holds repeating.

                If I hit those mobs with a 2500-3000 aimed shot crit, a 1400-1700 multishot crit, and my latest Distracting Shot then it will take an act of god or a poor tank for them to lose aggro.

                Its now my favorite starter on Boss fights since I can unload right off the bat and get away with it. ^_^
                My sanity is not in question...
                It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Warrior issues

                  Nice post, Tarenth!

                  It's helpful to see an "outside" perspective, and your saying that other party members (yes, even hunters!!!:icon_eek: ) have an active role to play in party management is right on the mark.

                  I must also admit that it IS harder to deal with (both in results and in state of mind) for warriors who are accustomed to having instance-appropriate gear to be further down the gear food chain. We want/expect/try to be effective tanks, but we don't have the gear-augmented abilities that we had from before the expansion.

                  It will also be a while before the really hot end-game gear shows up, even after reaching level 70. (Patience, grasshopper!!)
                  Beep


                  Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Warrior issues

                    Bear,

                    Hope you dont give up on your warrior.. we need all the knuckle dragging that we can get.
                    I am however totally with Beep on the statement that if you dont like playing that char.. pick up one of your others.. that pretty much goes for all of us. I know of a couple of people that are toying with the idea of "swithching" since the patch... and it all goes along the lines of enjoyment. We play this game to have fun.. and when it becomes no fun anymore.. it really is time to move onto something else. I was at a point just before the expansion came out that I wasnt having fun anymore and so I went off to play 2142 where I was having fun.. and was a blast when I saw you.. and Sajier and the countless others there.. that is the beauty I believe of this community that we can go home at night after a long hard day at the office and escape for a few hours with friends.
                    I really hope that some of the other warriors can help you with some of the issues you are having. It seems like after every major patch it changes the way we all play. We continually complain about this was nerfed or that was nerfed and eventually we still figure out how to beat the issue and realize that we find something in the new toolset that we totally love.
                    Keep after it Bear.. "you can do it!!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Warrior issues

                      For the record, I'm not quitting, I'm not giving up and I'm never leaving again. I will get this toon to 70 if it kills me!
                      “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Warrior issues

                        I personally heal pets when I can -- but won't hesitate to let them die before I let a player die. Now if you go into battle knowing the pet is going to be OT-ing that's a completely different scenario than the pet just pulling aggro from the tank.

                        I've noticed that alot of times with multiple mobs they've made aggro almost uncontrollable. The orcs that stream out of the cages in BF are a great example. And what has worked for the groups I've been in has been intelligent crowd control during combat. The timely frost nova, sheeping, thunderclaps, pally stuns, kidney shots. All these things can be used to slow or stop mobs for a bit. Its not quite as easy as it use to be and its not the tank's fault. But when mobs are running around all willy-nilly almost every class can do something to slow them up. And when push comes to shove we've all seen some crazy gear upgrades including quite a bit for stamina. I've seen Gaviin OT. I've seen Max and Baylord OT. And obviously a hunter can take care of a mob or two between traps and their pet. Personally I've been grouping with Delg alot and if we're fighting a big pack of trash I'll purposely pull one out and can usually burn it down before it does anything to me.
                        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                        ...and other distractions of various levels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Warrior issues

                          Originally posted by Pistos View Post
                          I personally heal pets when I can -- but won't hesitate to let them die before I let a player die. Now if you go into battle knowing the pet is going to be OT-ing that's a completely different scenario than the pet just pulling aggro from the tank.

                          I've noticed that alot of times with multiple mobs they've made aggro almost uncontrollable. The orcs that stream out of the cages in BF are a great example. And what has worked for the groups I've been in has been intelligent crowd control during combat. The timely frost nova, sheeping, thunderclaps, pally stuns, kidney shots. All these things can be used to slow or stop mobs for a bit. Its not quite as easy as it use to be and its not the tank's fault. But when mobs are running around all willy-nilly almost every class can do something to slow them up. And when push comes to shove we've all seen some crazy gear upgrades including quite a bit for stamina. I've seen Gaviin OT. I've seen Max and Baylord OT. And obviously a hunter can take care of a mob or two between traps and their pet. Personally I've been grouping with Delg alot and if we're fighting a big pack of trash I'll purposely pull one out and can usually burn it down before it does anything to me.
                          ooo oooo dont forget the warlock pet... big blue did some off tanking in underbog for a group that was a little squishy last week and he did quite well!! (just throwing in a couple of pennies)

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                          • #14
                            Re: Warrior issues

                            Don't forget fears. A lot of the instances are not as crowded as the old world instances so the old axiom of "Fears are bad" no longer holds true. Even if you are cramped on space you could ask your tank to start hamstringing a few mobs before your priest or warlock let drop the fear bomb.

                            I'm starting to like the wingclip/fear beast combo myself. Not only do I get plenty of "WTF!?!Who feared?" responses from people but the mob then hobbles around slowly for 20-30 second while I pound on them.
                            My sanity is not in question...
                            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Warrior issues

                              Wow... again what fun we are seeing.. some good "tactical" problems and solutions for "Tactical Gamers"!

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