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  • Karazhan: Decisions to make

    Great work to all those who have been at Karazhan the last two weeks. We have made some solid progress and have learned a great deal about the fights (Attumen Down, Moroes to 45%, Maiden to 70%).

    Now we are faced with some decisions to make. We are now at 17 people Karazhan keyed; we have a good mix of classes and roles, and are able to field a solid group. The issue is do we want to focus on fielding 1 raid several nights a week, or multiple raids maybe 2 nights on the weekend?

    This is not a decision I want to make on my own, so I am asking for your opinions here.

    Here is the info on each option that I have thought of:

    2 Raids, Fewer Days
    We now are getting close to having enough for 2 raids in Karazhan. Going off just what I know, here are our current Keys:

    Tanks:
    Talara, Beep, Halten

    Primary Healers:
    Wintrow, Sajier, Kedera

    Backup Healers:
    Baylord, Manny, Pistos(Also DPS)

    Caster DPS:
    Deleo, Dewidkat, Valik, Jandreyn, Celltar

    Non-Caster DPS:
    Ricca, Gaviin, Tarenth

    That puts us at 17 keys. In order to run a second Karazhan run we require at least 1 more tank, 1 more Primary Healer, and another (DPS or off spec Warrior/Priest/Pali). We really could use a third mage for crowd control in certain areas, or a Hunter, but tactics can be adjusted based on the group.

    With 2 raid groups, people would basically be locked into 1 group for that week and if anyone was missing for when the group could raid, they would have a very difficult time getting the raid going.

    Furthermore, getting a 3rd group going will be even more difficult. We basically would need to fill all the primary roles (2 tanks, 2 primary healers, 1 Backup healer, 5 DPS with a mix of CC).

    Pros:
    • Everyone would get to be in Karazhan each week.
    • Would increase the loot drops in the guild, if both raids are successful


    Cons:
    • If any role imbalance exists, could create some issues.
    • Probably would only be able to do 1-2 raids a week due to availablity issues of a specific raids 10 people


    1 Raid, More often
    With this, we could try to run maybe 3-4 runs a week, rotating people in to try to ensure balance and give everyone a shot to play.

    Pros:
    • Allows more flexibility if someone can't be there on a specific night.
    • Puts more time into the Instance and Progress.


    Cons:
    • Decreases the number of 70s available to help others on more nights.
    • Requires more overhead to ensure a rotation can be maintained so everyone gets time in the instance.


    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Ok, these are my ideas, please let me know what you think. I need to know what you guys want to see, then I can try to plan around it.
    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

    | | |

  • #2
    Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

    I like the "1 Raid, more often" plan. I think it is a better fit for our guild at the moment.

    There is more than enough 5 man content, group quests, and general fun to be had to keep us occupied. I am still hunting down various crafted plans, and questable items for gear upgrades.
    Uglyduck - Spec varies - Currently Prot
    MMORPG = Many Men Online Role-Playing as Girls

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    • #3
      Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

      Adding a bit of context...which you already know...but I want to remind you...

      1. Karazhan is a serious raid instance.
      2. We are learning it...meaning you WILL die a lot...with repair bills/potion consumption/etc. to match.
      3. People will make mistakes and the group will wipe, or an unlucky series of crits on the tank/healer/CC person will cause the group to wipe.
      4. We will be challenged and stretched...so need to have patience, understanding and a positive attitude.
      5. Our raid leaders are doing a terrific job figuring out what works and doesn't, but they are learning, too. AND, they are human. Give them support and cut them some slack.

      For all that, the place is big, with lots of different setups, and it looks to be fun and rewarding for us. We will be running this for a LONG time!:)
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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      • #4
        Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

        I like the 2 raids option. Raids start too early for myself and many others, but is just fine for leadership atm. I'd prefer a raid group that runs 9pm-Midnight, and I think there's enough demand to fit that schedule. Asking people to sit out of raids just because they've been more than others lately stinks, so if we can field 2 raids, the number of ppl having to sit out would drop drastically. I have alot of friends in other guilds as do alot of people in TG, we can fill spots for a second raid. I should be getting my KZ key this week, so there's another tank in the mix...

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        • #5
          Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

          I had a nice long post, then puter zapped, so in-a-nut shell. We all need to keep moving our gear, rep, ... forward as we explore Karazhan. Running the other new instances will help us learn the methods we need for new battles and to balance our group abilities. I would encourge each of us to vary the groups we are in to better understand the characteristics of others in groups. Once a week seems optimal for now. An instructional and insightful viewing of the movies of the Maiden fight can be recommended. If you find one in the point of view of your class, watch closely the dmg/healing....being done and compare to your own. If each of the players in the instance can say they are within 90% par with what is seen then a similar likelyhood of success is expected. In that case, we just need learn the dance.
          Dewidkat

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          • #6
            Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

            I don't believe we are quite at the stage where we can field 2 raids for fewer days and trying to do so will severly compromise our progress. If we were to try and attempt such a thing then we may see one raid move forward faster or both raids start to take steps back due to the problems of adding more inexperienced people to the raids. What we should do is focus on one raid and constantly rotate people into and out of the raid so that they may experience the content up to that point and have a feel for how the pulls and fights are conducted. Once we get to a certain point, I'd say halfway would be good, then we can split the raid into two and be confident that both raids would have enough people experienced in the content to get close to, if not to, the same point the single raid got. Splitting the raid right now when we've only managed to kill one boss out of all ten will just cause both raids to suffer more failure before the people in them can be brought back up to speed.
            My sanity is not in question...
            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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            • #7
              Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

              If we've only downed 1 boss, how can we suffer failure by splitting? You'd rather have 10 people sitting out so 10 people can progress? 20 people learning the fights seems better.

              Strange things are alrady happening to KZ raids, last night's raid was full 2 days before it happened, and there was no signup...raises interesting questions as to how people got a spot.

              TG used to run a later raid time, that was dropped long ago, and because most of our officers can make 7pm start time, they have no incentive to move it.

              Just maybe, what is best for the majority of the guild is not best for the few. I hope the few that make decisions for the majority look at that possibility.

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              • #8
                Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                Hitch.

                First off, I decided the 7pm raid time for these Karazhan runs, no one else. I have been organizing the runs, and I have been the one pushing for keys. No officer other than me decided the time. You want to blame someone, blame falls on me.

                How did the people get in the raid last night? They were there for the run on Friday so I offered the entire raid to hold another one on Sunday if people were available (and at the time we had 3 additional keys outside of the raid) with those people, I had 2 people drop so I filled those roles (Halten for Talara(Tank), Gaviin for Tarenth(DPS)). If you disagree with how I did it, thats fine, its your opinion. I made the best decision I could based on what I had to work with.

                We have since added 5 additional keys, thus this discussion.

                Please keep this discussion on topic.
                Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                | | |

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                • #9
                  Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                  If decisions about KZ are needing to be made, what is off-topic about raising potential issues? How many raids there are, how people get into raids, what time they are, what days of the week they are all part of planning.

                  Sajier, you may have decided this time that 7pm was the way to go, in the past it has been the other officers deciding it. I was hoping to give input now, rather than the raids continuing to be only 7pm forever. Just because I bring up touchy subjects doesn't mean I'm off topic.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                    Claiming there is some conspiracy that the officers are making raids at times they can make over others is off topic, as it is flat out untrue and meant to incite drama.

                    Problems with times, yeah those are valid, no problem with them as I looked at your first post and recognized the issue, but don't turn it into assumptions that have no basis.
                    Last edited by Sajier; 02-26-2007, 04:32 PM.
                    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                    | | |

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                    • #11
                      Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                      I actually just claimed that officers will choose raid times that they can make. Why choose a raid time that is inconvenient to yourself? I'm not trying to incite drama, but incite change.

                      We'll talk in-game so this thread can get back "on topic".

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                      • #12
                        Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                        .. Jeebus you two... get a room already

                        back to the topic.. IMO, Either way we go with start times we are going to alienate a certain popualtion of the guild. Therefore, we need to do both, have some raid times that start at 7pm and some that start at 8 or 9.

                        The real question is, Do run to seperate raids? or one? I beleive that currently we can only effectively support one raid.

                        Proposed solution: Have set raid start times, ex: X:00pm for the weekend, X:00pm weekdays. Run 2 days on the weekend, 2 days during the week.

                        On a seperate note: Are we setting any minimal gear/experience requirements for ppl to go to Karazhan? IMO, having the key shouldn't mean that you are ready to go.
                        Uglyduck - Spec varies - Currently Prot
                        MMORPG = Many Men Online Role-Playing as Girls

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                        • #13
                          Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                          Duck, I had no plans to set gear requirements simply because I don't believe I am qualified to speak for what every class should be required to have as I am not an expert on every class.

                          The only "requirement" that I have been pushing is that Warrior Tanks have at least 490 defense. I have been putting my own gold into gems for the tanks that have been on these raids, and hope that at some point I will see some help on that, but we have gotten Talara set up, and then got Beep to 510DEF, Halten is my next project and then so on and so forth down the line as tanks get keyed.
                          Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                          | | |

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                            Ultimately, I think that the quickest path to success in this or any of these new "end-game" instances is consistency in group make-up. Every time we swap in a new player to fill a spot in the group, we take a step back as everyone needs to re-adjust to the group play style. For instance, I know that Gaviin understands his aggro inside and out and therefore rarely needs my healing attention. He also manages to eek out quite a bit of dps, keep mobs incapacitated when he can, etc. If we end up sub-ing Hypothetical Guild Rogue #2 (HGR2) in for Gaviin to get HGR2 some experience, not only do we have to re-educate them on how all of the pulls/boss fights go, but we also have to adjust our individual play styles. Do I have to focus more heals on HGR2 to keep him up because he can't manage aggro as well? Do other DPS classes need to up their damage to bring the mob down faster because HGR2 hasn't quite mastered maximizing a rogue's damage? Does this lead to other aggro/healing problems? The group has enough to worry about at this stage of our progression in learning the fights without having these kinds of surprises.

                            Though there certainly are cons to this, I think that we need Karazhan "teams" until the guild is geared enough and experienced enough to swap people in and out without missing a beat. To focus on the 1 raid approach at this stage is only going to lead to inconsistent progress and frustrations similar to those we had in BWL. So at this point, I seem to be advocating the 2 raid proposal. I think that we'll see, as the issue of "who's keyed?" becomes moot, that the trend will be for these "teams" to develop on their own anyway. People already frequently run 5-mans in roughly the same groups; it wouldn't be too tough to expand that out to a 10-man with minimal officer organization.

                            While having "teams" may come across as 'clique-y' in the beginning, I think that it can still benefit the whole guild in the long run. There are obviously those of us who take our time in WoW very seriously, have learned to maximize our classes abilities in most situations and nimbly react to new challenges. If 10-12 of those guildies team up and quickly learn the ins and outs of Karazhan because they are running it together week in and week out, that means there's 10-12 resources available to help other teams out who may be stuck on a boss. It also allows the guild to develop different strategies in the different teams instead of sticking to a single "guild-sponsored" strategy.
                            70 Priest

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                            • #15
                              Re: Karazhan: Decisions to make

                              I tend to agree with Wintrow here. As we, the officers, try to structure raids, we ineviteably leave someone out...who thus crys foul. We started early on with the "big tent" theory and it worked for awhile, but almost became our downfall awhile back. We need to learn to be more flexible, and less finger-pointy people.

                              Teams would be interesting. Have 2 core groups that regularly pull in people to fill spots that need filled when someone can't show. Cliguey?...yes...detrimental to the guild?...not exactly.

                              We complain about times of the raid. Why not have that time agreeable to 10-15 people instead of the 100+ accounts we have in guild?

                              We definitely need to learn to play within our groups, and playing with the same people leads to a familiarity or squad-type atmosphere.

                              If this came about, we could have once a month "mix-ups" where we scramble the groups on a whim...thus ensuring we see how others do it and interact more with the guild.

                              Ok...so I'm spitting off at the mouth, but I'm not complaining. Keep in mind that if only the officers are visibly trying to get people grouped (via tells, forum posts, and especially the raid site) and only officers are leading (so far Sajier and myself), then obviously we need to be in the groups or the groups never happen.

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