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  • Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

    Originally posted by beep View Post
    I'm sorry if you felt ignored.

    For a new player, finding peers to venture and level with is much more of a challenge in that environment. We simply don't have enough beginners or low-level alts to make that easy.
    This was mostly my point -- not at all pointing fingers. This is just a fact.

    Originally posted by beep
    My personal experience on half a dozen characters is that most leveling is, in fact, a solo experience. Other's mileage may differ.
    I have to wholeheartedly disagree! Especially at lower levels, more people can take on more difficult challenges and with strong healers and good DPS level much more quickly than solo. And even if that's not always the case, the point of the guild itself is to be social, right, not just level-mongers. What's the point in being in a guild if you have to solo it all the time? And as the guildchat continues to consist of lingo meant for the 60+ while lowbie comments/questions/attempts at conversation, go completely unanswered... what is the point?

    Originally posted by beep
    We have brainstormed from time-to-time about starting another TG-based WoW guild solely for the purpose of providing lower level players a place to hang out. We have thus far not pursued that, believing that (a) we don't want to further segment our TG WoW players, and (b) our shift toward squad-based groups DOES create the possibility of more peer grouping, including lower level players (mains or alts).
    I don't think a second guild would segment the population at all! I think it would give the "newbies" the chance to form their own connections WITHIN the group and feel more a part of everything once they are at a level where they can actually raid, etc. with the vets.

    But if the guild is truly moving in a different direction, maybe I'll give it another try.. I love the TG community at-large and would hate to think ill of any of its "suburbs." :)
    I heart TG.
    xoxo

    ~Sugar~

    "Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline." ~I saw this in Zephy'rs sig and I love it.

  • #2
    Re: Bye TG

    Originally posted by beep View Post
    We have brainstormed from time-to-time about starting another TG-based WoW guild solely for the purpose of providing lower level players a place to hang out. We have thus far not pursued that, believing that (a) we don't want to further segment our TG WoW players, and (b) our shift toward squad-based groups DOES create the possibility of more peer grouping, including lower level players (mains or alts).
    Just to throw in my $0.02...

    This is eventually the direction we settled on in Eve. We tried to go it all in one corp for a while, but there are just differing playstyles, and in Eve, we didn't have adequate numbers to support PvP and PvE/industry in one corp. Some people don't like fighting, and to support that, we eventually settled on having a PVP oriented corp (mercenaries, actually) and an industry focused corp that handles the manufacturing side of things, as well as being a spot new players can (relatively, this is Eve after all) find their feet and discover the playstyle that suits them best.

    All in all, I'd say that if you have two different groups of players (in WoWs case, low levels and high levels), it's probably not a bad idea to use one guild as a feeder guild to the end game stuff. AS long as it's staffed with people who can give guidance to the newer players and help them reach the levels they need to get to to group up with the older characters on the endgame content.

    Not that I play WoW or anything, just sharing some struggles we went through in Eve.
    Do or do not, there is no try....
    -- Yoda, Dagobah

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    • #3
      Re: Bye TG

      Thank you for the insight, Gunjunkie!

      We have considered creating a second guild for leveling, and I fully support the creation of such a guild. If there are enough people interested in setting that up and running it, by all means, have at it. Start it up on Thunderhorn, and let's see what we can come up with. Having a feeder guild seems perfectly reasonable to me.

      To make that happen, we need volunteers to spearhead the effort. SugarNCamo, if you are truly interested in creating this, let's talk. Shoot me a PM when you have some time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bye TG

        I would be interested if a low level "squad" or "guild" whatever you want to call it is created. I read the WoW forums and I have leveled a Shaman to 28th level on the horde side but I have had to do it by myself and I am beginning to get bored. I have stayed away from TG's guild because everyone is so advanced and they don't have time for a newb to bother with dumb questions so I try to learn as much as I can by reading posts.

        Anytime you get a bunch of differing opinions on a game as vast as WoW there will always be conflicts and I am sure that the officers of the WoW guild here at TG are and doing the best they can do. People need to put themselves in their shoes for a while to truly understand just how hard it is to manage not only real life people put also the virtual ones as well.

        Please keep me informed if any such "squad/guild" is created. Thanks
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Re: Bye TG

          There is the minor difficulty that TG on Thunderhorn is on the Alliance side of course. Might be a bit difficult to work something out with your horde toon Drizzid. ;)

          The TG experience in TG-WoW is definately a lot different than what you would get in TG-BF2 or TG-BF2142 simply because of the different ways the games are put together. While the BF games are geared towards 'kick your teeth in' action the second you spawn in, WoW is focused more towards the usual "Waste time and have fun doing it" mind set of a MMORPG. That means I can create a character, spend 3 weeks leveling it up, 2 weeks getting gear, then finally announce "I'm ready for a group" only to be told "Sorry, need someone else to fill a different role". So you sit around and do other things until someone needs you. On the flip side I could spawn in BF2142 and the SL could say "we have too many support" and BAM! 10 seconds later I'm back in the game as a medic instead. There is a lot more downtime between doing things with guildies (to compare play on the TG BF2142 server and ONLY squad up with PUBies and you'll be grinding your teeth) but for some people the turn around is worth the dead time (I think I laughed until my sides split when Sajier was screaming "DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!" over TS on our first Curator drop).

          The formation of a 'feeder' subguild would be interesting...but I think it would be a bust. A lot of the time people stay for the interaction with people in the guild and shunting them off to a feeder guild cut off from everyone else will just be counter productive to that. I would MUCH rather level while getting to know the people I'll want to play with than join a guild and level to play with people I've never seen before because that's the way the guild does things.

          A Lowbie 'squad' is also another interesting idea, but might also be one doomed to failure. Everyone levels and progresses at their own pace and the personel in a squad that will fluctuate so heavily would be a bit too unstable for my tastes. Take for example if you have someone who levels like Gaviin (level 70 in the second week) and someone who levels like Luna (level 70 in 2 months) well how long will Gaviin stay in the 'lowbie' squad as opposed to Luna if they created low characters? There is also a pretty narrow gap between levels before grouping up goes from beneficial to detrimental to your character's growth. Its a sad fact, but a lot of the old world/low level content was ment to be soloed with a absent minded nod towards group work.
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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          • #6
            Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

            As you can see, I split this portion of Arvid's post into a new thread, to discuss the suggestion of creating a lowbie "feeder" guild.

            Carry on!

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            • #7
              Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

              Thinking back to when this guild began and all of us were newbies, we had entirely different structure to support leveling, compared to now. We had an officer assigned to each level bracket, and it was that officer's responsibility to see to it that those in his/her bracket were getting the support they needed. We also had a recruiting officer that was actively pulling new people in to fill up the ranks and give people other quality friends to play with. I sometimes think that open recruitment is what we can thank for having such a successful guild, overall. We have our issues, sure, but everyone does. Anyhow, we found that having solid recruitment helped to balance out the guild, since some of the original TGers were leveling faster or slower than eachother. Then, the guy left behind would feel left out. (Think Karma, for you old hats out there)

              As an original guildie, I can tell you that when we were leveling initially, we did NOT level solo. We had a solid group of about 5 of us who would get online together every night and do our questing together. Then a second group of 5 formed up (Ricca, et al). I think a guild that is focused on that early group play might be beneficial to the folks who feel overwhelmed and lonely in the "big" TG guild. We could set up a channel for us all to be in while in game, so we can communicate like you would in guild chat, to keep everyone connected to eachother. When people in the new guild get upwards of 60-70 and are looking for end game, which most eventually will, we can support the formation of squads that will foster the relationships you have already established.

              Why not? It's sure something to seriously consider.

              Again, I would like a PM from any of you who are willing to spearhead this effort. It's a lost cause if no one is willing to step up and lead it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                Worthwhile discussion...:)

                Luna has pegged it...finding good leadership is probably the biggest single factor in "success" or lack thereof.

                I'm personally inclined toward the guild-within-a-guild idea (i.e. squad) so as to keep the sense of belonging and TG identity, but that reflects my experience and bias from coming up through one guild.

                We can probably make most anything work.
                Beep


                Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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                • #9
                  Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                  There is the minor difficulty that TG on Thunderhorn is on the Alliance side of course. Might be a bit difficult to work something out with your horde toon Drizzid.
                  I was just pointing out the fact that I have some experience in playing WoW and I also understand what goes into soloing. I would be willing to make a new character in Thunderhorn on the alliance side if this new squad were created.

                  The formation of a 'feeder' subguild would be interesting...but I think it would be a bust. A lot of the time people stay for the interaction with people in the guild and shunting them off to a feeder guild cut off from everyone else will just be counter productive to that. I would MUCH rather level while getting to know the people I'll want to play with than join a guild and level to play with people I've never seen before because that's the way the guild does things.
                  I don't think this new guild would have to be cut off from the experienced guild. As long as the most experienced guildies would allow the newbies to pick their brain for information and tips to better the newbies play I think there would be intereaction with both guildes. I also think that if the leaders in the current guild could help the newbies that TG might gain more raid leaders. I may be mistaken but isn't that something that is lacking currently in the TG guild? Only a select few people are effective leaders in the guild.

                  A Lowbie 'squad' is also another interesting idea, but might also be one doomed to failure. Everyone levels and progresses at their own pace and the personel in a squad that will fluctuate so heavily would be a bit too unstable for my tastes. Take for example if you have someone who levels like Gaviin (level 70 in the second week) and someone who levels like Luna (level 70 in 2 months) well how long will Gaviin stay in the 'lowbie' squad as opposed to Luna if they created low characters? There is also a pretty narrow gap between levels before grouping up goes from beneficial to detrimental to your character's growth. Its a sad fact, but a lot of the old world/low level content was ment to be soloed with a absent minded nod towards group work.
                  I think this is the best idea is creating a squad instead of calling it a subguild. I would equate it to the Irregulars that we have in BF2. The Irregulars are designed as a place that new people coming to TG can learn the TG way. Saijer is a part of the Irregulars and he might be able to shed some more light on how this concept might be introduced into WoW here at TG. Maybe if some of the original guildies might take a little time to help the Irregulars from time to time to teach the newbies it would be beneficial to everyone in the TG guild. As for the leveling there is never a perfect solution but I think that SOPs need to be written for this squad so that it's main focus is to help others attain their goals. If someone in this "Irreg" squad starts to pull away and gets to 60-70 then maybe they can apply to one of the already formed squads.

                  These are just my opinions.
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                    I strongly urge the guild not to form another "lowbie" guild. This would make it even harder for people not in a squad to get things going, as many would not be in guild chat to "hop onto" an appropriate level toon.

                    As for lowbie groups, I prefer to level my lowbies solo. If you are doing the level grind with others all the time, many of the dynamics of your class will go unused, as the mobs (designed to be soloed) will go down too fast to challange a player. Instances and elite quests are designed to test multiple players, and teach group dynamics. IMO, if you are grouping to "knock out quests quickly", you might as well find a 70 to drag you through everything as quickly as possible, so you can learn to play your toon on our time in a 70-level instance. Or... you could buy your toon on e-bay. With the direction things have gone in guild, you might even find my toon there (8 61+ toons should fetch a pretty penny).

                    I'm tempted to continue into a rant about how the squad concept killed the guild, taking away and segregating our leadership, and leaving the casual gamers to mill about aimlessly, but I'll stop here. This is at the core of why people, low and high, have trouble getting groups together.
                    Anahlahna and Friends

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                    • #11
                      Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                      Originally posted by Anah View Post
                      I strongly urge the guild not to form another "lowbie" guild. This would make it even harder for people not in a squad to get things going, as many would not be in guild chat to "hop onto" an appropriate level toon.

                      As for lowbie groups, I prefer to level my lowbies solo. If you are doing the level grind with others all the time, many of the dynamics of your class will go unused, as the mobs (designed to be soloed) will go down too fast to challange a player. Instances and elite quests are designed to test multiple players, and teach group dynamics. IMO, if you are grouping to "knock out quests quickly", you might as well find a 70 to drag you through everything as quickly as possible, so you can learn to play your toon on our time in a 70-level instance. Or... you could buy your toon on e-bay. With the direction things have gone in guild, you might even find my toon there (8 61+ toons should fetch a pretty penny).

                      I'm tempted to continue into a rant about how the squad concept killed the guild, taking away and segregating our leadership, and leaving the casual gamers to mill about aimlessly, but I'll stop here. This is at the core of why people, low and high, have trouble getting groups together.

                      Anah you are right there are things that need to be soloed so you can learn how to play your character. I don't think anyone is looking for a power level opportunity but what I am looking for is people who are going through the same things I am and enjoying those same accomplishments. The game is fun and vast but it can be frustrating and monotonous at the same time if you are constantly grinding by yourself as I am sure you know. I would also like to be a part of the TG guild but the current status is to advanced for me to be able to enjoy the guild experience and I think this new squad gives me that chance.
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                        I hardly think the guild is dead, Anah. If you see squadless guildies "milling about endlessly", there is nothing in the way of them forming up and starting a squad. If we didn't go the squad route, we would have seen the leadership of the guild going elsewhere to find fulfillment. Squads promote shared strategies and the encouragement for new leaders to emerge. They also encourage personal responsibility- if you are squadless, the guild will support you forming a squad of your own, and will do everything it can to help you be successful.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                          I've been grappling with this since I joined the guild a couple months ago. I haven't come up with an easy answer either. It is lonely in our guild when you're a lower level, but I also agree that leveling is mainly a solo venture. The problem with trying to group up with other TGers is that if you aren't within 5 levels of each other one of you is wasting your time. It's been much easier for me to grab a PUG when I need an instance, or an elite quest. Oh, that and Jame's guides ;)

                          That being said, we should have some kind of support for the lowbies. I don't think creating more structure that requires people to take on leadership responsibilities is the best option however. To make a new guild work you'd have to have hundreds of players in order to find a group your own level. Something simple like an easier way for new players to ask for help from older players might work. Either posting here in the forums, or a channel in guild chat. And of course make it known that older chars are willing to mentor the new folks when they need it.

                          Ultimately, it's up to the new player to jump up and ask if anyone has an alt they would like to log on, or be persistent in Guild chat with questions (I haven't had any problems getting quick answers). But, maybe we can make it a little easier for them through more open communication.
                          New to TG?

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                          • #14
                            Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                            FWIW, squads do NOT have to be based on Karazhan raiding like our three existing squads who are focused efforts there.
                            Beep


                            Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Split thread re: Lowbie Guild Discussion

                              i would like this 'Lowbie' guild, i have a lvl 7 (i think) lock and a lvl 2 or 3 pally, but im on the trial right now and might go out and get the full WoW soon
                              sigpic


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