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  • squads

    NO one who belongs to this guild and is prepared should be begging in post for a squad to have access to content. Yet if we committ to squads these people need a way to rotate into groups. I of course am of course committed myself to not making comments----oops.

    Please consider ways that geared players feel welcome without having to create 50 squads. Highly respected guilds on this server are running 2 squads only concerned that new squads have less chance of consistent sucess with less players experience in karazan.

    I know the response to this is guys in a squad are in the squad to assure a place--understand that too.

    I am no agendy in expressing this cordially because I am on less and less with RL crowding into VR---I am concerned that people who join now might quickly decide they can be excluded from access-----something that the guilds are actually supposeed to provide.

    June

  • #2
    Re: squads

    Squads have succeeded where we saw a need to succeed and failed where some of us have expected failure.

    What we have here, is a failure to communicate...

    We have succeeded, partly, in opening up lines of communications that go beyond the back pocket cliches. Groups that maybe talked to only 3-4 other people and worked independently have been integrated into groups that are now 14-15 players strong. These successes are great, but, by their very nature, quiet because it was rare you'd see them ever participate outside their group so you never knew they were there. You STILL won't see them participate outside their group, but their group is larger and that chalks up as a success.

    On the flip side people who were very open and guild positive have also been integrated into these 14-15 man teams so their exposure has been cut down somewhat. Naturally their focus gets inflated into a failure of squads about as much as the small group integration is ignored as a success. Because they 'used' to be very visible and active with the rest of the guild the sudden quiet makes things seem worse than it really is. This paints the picture of 'failure' that seems to overpower the real successes.

    The real problem with squads is people don't want to talk...
    ...to anyone...
    ...ever.

    I'm not talking about the people in the squads either, but people outside of the squads. Crebis went on a huge "ARE YOU INTERESTED IN JOINING A SQUAD? INQUIRE HERE!" campaign that ended with maybe lukewarm success. People interested in a squad posted and got into a squad (welcome Special Forces and Cocidius!) people who don't read the forums obviously didn't post and were looked over by their own actions.

    I laughed until my sides hurt when Kailes posted the bit about locked channels and no one ever talking to anyone else. I laughed because it was false in just about every aspect except one (and I'll keep poking fun at Crebis and Gaviin for Defiant's channel, which is the only locked channel, just because its fun and true). The squads may get preoccupied when they are running an instance, but then again so does everyone else. When squads are not in an instance we are still part of the guild and still interact and talk with everyone else. Hell its even possible to see when those squad people are going to be busy by their posted schedules (again sans defiant, but they have their reasons and I still laugh at them and make fun of them because of that too ;) ) so you know "These people are going to be busy at this time".

    In my honest opinion thats FAR superior to getting blind sided with "Sorry, my friends and I are only grouping together today" since now you know when and how long people are going to be preoccupied. Squads are bringing some of those small isolated cliche groups into the light so we can organize things better.

    Use ALL your tools at your disposal to get in contact with someone and you will get a number of responses back.

    People generally talk in guild chat. DO THAT! Even people in instances glance over at guild chat to add in their 2 cents because its always there and always visible to people online (unless you turn it off, at which point you're shooting yourself in the foot)

    People also talk in teamspeak. DO NOT EXPECT PEOPLE TO LEAVE INSTANCE TS GROUPS TO CHAT WITH YOU! I've heard about that recently and I just shake my head in wonderment. You want someone in a karazhan group to leave their TS channel to talk with you, but you would probably not consider doing it if you were in a mech group TS channel.

    READ THE <explitive deleted> FORUMS! Tacticalgamer provides us with a GREAT way to get in touch and just chew cud with these forums. Of course if you're reading this then you probably do keep up with things, but if you don't then why not? There is a very active and interesting community in TG-WoW and a far bigger and exponentially greater community in the rest of TG. Joining TG isn't just a "I'm in a raiding guild now" sort of thing, its a "I'm now part of something much larger" action that I'm saddened to say few people take advantage of. Yes, that last part of the spiel was brought about by Luna's advert in guild chat a few days ago. :D If you have a low post count then that obviously means you aren't posting. If you aren't posting you aren't being heard from the people on the forums. If you aren't being heard then don't expect people to start reading your mind and divining what you think.


    I should probably drag myself back on topic, but I was chuckling over the "why I left" post that had a lot of feeling in it expressed by someone with 8 posts who I could not recall if I've ever talked to over guild chat before.


    The eventual issue with new recruits/levled toons and the constant formation of squads has been expressed (by me BTW) to Crebis...oh...about 4 weeks ago I think. I was informed that my concern was noted and the officers would disscuss it to see about finding a resolution to nip it in the bud. Then they probably went into the officer forums and smoked Apo's secret stash. BUT they did say they were talking about it so a solution will be found...I guess.

    On a related note the two exploratory squads (Defiant and Illidan) are making GREAT strides through Karazhan. Eventually (just like in MC and the issue with alts) the amount of loot the current squad rosters can take will saturate itself and we will, most probably, see people added to those squads as veteran members lend their services, gear, and experienced to less experienced squads/groups in order to help them progress faster through the same content. In a way, similar to MC, people who come later will probably benefit the most as they are grandfathered through broken ground. This will get more people their loot faster and allow the guild to tackle the next step of probably cross squad raids into the 25 man content.

    Of course for that to happen people need to give things time to grow and mature. It took several months of running MC weekly before we had started to see saturation and alts being 'back in' the raids. With a smaller raid group and more loot per person dropping that time will probably shortened to WEEKS after the first clear.

    If you want to speed things up then BE PREPARED (yea Illidan squad motto). Read up on strategies and try and keep track of the AARs posted in each squad because they usually detail the nitty gritty. SIGN UP FOR MIU WEEKS to get some experience under your belt. 1 week of running Karazhan out of 4 will only be a good thing AND you will get some great loot because you will be escorted to (and usually through) content that the squaded members that are (or at least should be) peppering the raid to ensure success have seen and conqured many times before.

    Wow...I have a 104 degree fever. I think I better lie down now -.-
    My sanity is not in question...
    It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


    Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: squads

      When I first joined TG, I was a complete NOOB (never played a game like this before) as opposed to a partial NOOB now lol. But i was leveling for the first time and i felt that with the exception of a rare few that the Guild had no interest in lower level toons. I remember my first guild meeting, I whispered Luna saying why do i need to be here it has no bearing on me at all? But she assured me that it did and will be even more so as time goes on.

      She also told me that it was imperative to get involved, start with just saying hi in guild chat. Ask questions, join discussions even when they arent game related, TG I have found isnt all about game play it's making friends and enjoying time online together. Any person who feels left out needs to inspect their own actions. Have you allowed anyone to get to know you?? If you dont make yourself known to others it is easy to get left out. Until I did that i didnt know but a handful of individuals in the guild.

      Anyone who thinks that squads dont play with others need to take a look at "Special Forces". ( I dont know about the other squads so can only speak for our own) We help whenever we can regardless of level, squad, blah blah... We like to get things done and help other do the same with the most fun we can possibly get out of it.

      Another positive to squad play is that some people ( like me) get nervous playing with people you dont know. The fear of making a mistake, someone gets upset with you, etc can be almost debilitating. When you play with a squad you can almost predict what they will do in certain situations. The more you play together the better you work together as a team therefore accomplishing more.

      Just my 2 cents lol
      "Go Bear!!!!! It's The Best!!!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: squads

        By allowing guild members to decide to create their own squads, and not put a cap on how many squads can be made, we are in turn encouraging the guild to GET INVOLVED and take some personal responsibility for their play time. Having just 2 squads would severely limit the ability of players to get into KZ, because the sheer number of guild members in TG far outpaces the 20 spots 2 squads would provide. The squad solution means that new folks can come in, say they're interested in a squad, and get pulled into the new content by the newer squads. All of us don't need to be dragged through KZ- we all need to learn the skills in there by doing it without our hands being held. It's not so much the gear, it's the skills we develop in there. You'll learn nothing by having the "exploratory" squads take in a new guy and yank them through the instance. MUI week is to show those in newer squads or the squadless the content they will soon see and master- everyone has a chance to play.

        If we were to "rotate" new folks into the more established squads, the squads will see slower progress (which is already pretty slow, at times) and we will be that much further from being successful as a guild in the bigger instances to come (aka Gruul's Lair). We will all likely join up again to be successful in there, but we need all of you to be responsible for yourselves so we can get to that point.

        We have great things on the horizon together. Don't go losing sight of the goal here, guys!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: squads

          Originally posted by luna View Post
          If we were to "rotate" new folks into the more established squads, the squads will see slower progress (which is already pretty slow, at times) and we will be that much further from being successful as a guild in the bigger instances to come (aka Gruul's Lair). We will all likely join up again to be successful in there, but we need all of you to be responsible for yourselves so we can get to that point.
          Ya missed the mark there Luna. ;)

          Let me compare Karazhan to Molten Core. At first we decided that we would put our best foot forward and give priorities to mains and people with good gear so we can learn and progess in the instance to get more loot. Then we downed Ragnaros (w00t!) and started to speed things up.

          Of course, then we hit a snag. We could clear Molten Core in only a few hours (2 hours to Garr, 2 hours to Majordomo if we pushed ourselves and were on our game), but people were getting tired of MC and started to see little reason to be there. As they became saturated with the amount of loot they could cart out of the instance they would step back and bring in alts or other characters to fill their spots. That "Mains ONLY!" rule slowly went out the window when people no longer needed to run MC with their mains.

          Eventually Illidan and Defiant will clear Karazhan and milk it for all its worth. By then the squad members will be so loaded up with purples that they'll resemble European royals by how much purple they wear. Once you hit exalted with Violet Eye (dirty humans already have) and have all the loot from Karazhan there really is no point to running the instance anymore. At which time it will not hurt the squad for someone to retire from Karazhan and act as squad support and first in line for new content as the squad brings up someone else to run Karazhan in their place. That person will quickly amass loot and experience (a lot faster and cheaper too since they're not on the 'learning' side of the curve) and when they're up to speed maybe another old hand will step back and let someone new in their place.

          You cannot 'slow down' progress if you have no where else to go. I know that once we hit a point where my main can no longer progress I'm going to try and wheedle my alt in (DPS for DPS/Healer isn't that big of a stretch) and others might do the same (Sajier -> Blastcap maybe Beep -> Beepster).

          The situation NOW will be different in the future. Sometimes all you can do is look towards the horizon and hope it comes faster.
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



          Comment


          • #6
            Re: squads

            Oh yes yes, Tarenth. I agree. I was responding to Junebugg's original post.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: squads

              Taking personal responsibility for my own playtime is fine, and I understand your point. However, one can only spend so much time looking for / running pugs before one begins to wonder why they're in a particular guild.

              Squads are fine for the people in them. For those that aren't in squads for various reasons (i.e. can't log on before 10:00 server time due to responsibilities at home), it can take upwards of 8 weeks to find a decent Black Morass pug simply so you can finish your key and have the outside possibility of seeing Karazhan.

              I'm not trying to knock squads, because they are very useful for the regulars who are in them. You're progressing through content at a pace the guild wouldn't otherwise be able to achieve. That said, the guild is nearly useless to those people scrounging to find groups to run *any* instance most nights.

              Sildus / Fred

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: squads

                Do you have any ideas on how we can better accomodate people in your situation, Sildus?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: squads

                  Silidus-
                  It is hard to get a group around that time of night in TG. Seems like we have a lot of east coast peeps. Hion, Alava, a few other owls, and myself are usually looking to run instances at that time of night. Send me a pst to see what we are up to. We can help you get your KZ key frag runs in. Shoot we can do it in one day if you want to dedicate a Saturday or Sunday to it:)

                  As for squads... I had an idea. Not sure if it would work but its a thought. The idea kinda gets away from squads and makes the KZ runs open sign ups.
                  It would be for more casual gamers who aren't in squads, dont play every night, or who can't dedicate a specific night to running KZ.

                  Lets call this group the TG Group just for explanation purposes. Basically there would be a TG Group KZ run on the raid site for every night of the week. The site administrators would set it up class specific like the old days of MC. Anyone is welcome to sign up on any night they are available. The start time would be set as a window. For example 6pm server to 10pm server. Anytime on the weekends. When players signed up they would indicate the time they would be available to play. If the TG group raid filled up they would run KZ. If not, they could try to fill the group with guildies or PUG the rest of the toons they need. (A good way to recruit btw).

                  I know people have alts that are keyed and probably willing to run KZ the nights their mains aren't running it. Some weeks I won't be able to make my squads KZ runs, so I would be interested in running with the TG group now and again.

                  In order to get semi organized the TG group would probably need a leader/officer.

                  Like I said, I'm not sure if this idea would work. This is just a thought to help make everyone feel like they have an opportunity at endgame material now.
                  "Uhhhh.... Try this HOT and let me know how it goes."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: squads

                    interesting idea. I think we would need more people in general in this guild. Definitely more casuals, but I could see it working if we put enough into it and people didn't get upset with "not" running due to nights with light signups.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: squads

                      Originally posted by Cerridwynn View Post
                      She also told me that it was imperative to get involved, start with just saying hi in guild chat. Ask questions, join discussions even when they arent game related, TG I have found isnt all about game play it's making friends and enjoying time online together. Any person who feels left out needs to inspect their own actions. Have you allowed anyone to get to know you?? If you dont make yourself known to others it is easy to get left out. Until I did that i didnt know but a handful of individuals in the guild.

                      This is a good point... sadly, it's preaching to the choir. Ever since I've joined, i've seen that the most outgoing people in game are the most likely to post. (my own personal example was Skeet, who'd only been in the guild for something like a couple of months before me. The forums were saturated with his banter, and his post count was ludicrous... which fit in quite nicely with how... um, open he was with his ideas.)
                      Mind you, there has been a bit of a shift in people since I joined TG (the first time). The first time i ever joined the /Tactical Gamer channel, I was inundated with a flood of text from extremely vocal people... Luna, Lunchbox... and... um... Damnit. Can't remember the guys name... Grump.. gramp.. something like that.
                      The guild was smaller back in those days. Not super tiny, but smaller. Some people in the guild nowadays don't notice just how big it is. There are alot of different people, there's alot of different attitudes, and alot of different variables that keep some people from being the out going and happy people that they generally are. I mean... do you know Everybody that you Work with? (Assuming you work in a large workplace...) I know maybe 40 people that i work with... there are over 1000 people in my building. If i reach out to the people outside of the 40 I know, i can easily get to know more of the 1000, but hey, I'm human, I've only got so much time to devote to socializing... and lets not forget :P this is work.

                      Ever since I joined, I've made it a point to get to know people as they come in. I do my best to answer peoples questions in guild chat, and always offer a friendly whisper If i run across a guildie in a zone. There were times, back in the day, that i felt like i was one of the most popular people in the guild. (then i got stupid and left.)
                      We've taken strides to do our best to only invite the best kind of people into our guild. Sometimes we've missed... as our ranks have included pathological liars, drunks, people with... questionable teamspeak etiquette, and just all around Jerk offs. But they don't really fit with us, So they leave pretty quickly, or we boot them. My point here is that it's easy to make friends with these people.

                      Luna and I have alot in common... That's why she's my best friend these days...
                      Creboriolara and i don't have LOTS in common, but we have the same thoughts on a lot of things, we're both generally nice people, and it's generally safe to say that if he's thinking of a way to better the guild, I'm probably thinking it as well, (and Vise Versa)... That's why I've never had a problem talking to him as a friend. Which brings me to my next point...


                      Originally posted by Sildus
                      I'm not trying to knock squads, because they are very useful for the regulars who are in them. You're progressing through content at a pace the guild wouldn't otherwise be able to achieve. That said, the guild is nearly useless to those people scrounging to find groups to run *any* instance most nights.
                      You're entirely right. the guild IS worthless for questing these days. It didn't use to be, but now that we've grown so large, we HAVE turned into cliques. For the most part though, the cliques aren't set in stone. I have NO idea how i got into Gaviin's good books... I rejoined TG after my Reverent stint, and somehow made friends with them.. basically falling into a group of people who are good players, good people, and usually willing to help me if i whine enough.

                      My point here? Reach out.. Even if your group of friends doesn't have ALL of the stuff that you need to do a run, it's not hard to pick up one extra... as opposed to four.
                      (just a helpful hint, Alava is a flaming noob... If you need a tank, whisper him... about 20 times.) that usually gets his attention... and believe it or not, he's actually pretty good at tanking... Probably because you can fall asleep while auto attacking. <3 you Alava.)



                      I know that alot of people imagine that joining a guild equals no more searching for Pug BM groups, and lots of free loot, and hot girls, and that can be the case... but YOU'Ve gotta work on it... YOU have to make friends with guild mates, YOU have to do the footwork... you can't just join the guild and say 'LFG BM!' because people don't know you yet... help them get to know you. (Sildus, this isn't aimed at you, this is a general comment.) If you're a shy person that doesn't like whispering somebody you don't know, Talk to an officer, (we're all nice people.) tell them 'hey, i'm new here and don't really know anybody... would you be able to help me find some people to get me through Black Morass?' As long as the officer in question isn't super busy or AFK, I garauntee you that they'll try to help you out. They might not be super successful, but we'll try.

                      People have been saying that the guild isn't helpful anymore, and that everybody is focused solely on raiding. That isn't entirely true.. you can still find people who like to help, (myself being one of them.) As long as you remember to ask around, and attempt to make connections with fellow guildies, you'll be able to find the help that you need.

                      Also, as long as you remember that I've leveled two toons to above 60... and that i've ran about 50 peoples alts through the Uldaman/Zul'farrak/Maraudon Gauntlet, and I swear to god I'll stab myself in the eye with a spoon if I ever have to go through any of them again... You'll be golden.
                      _________________



                      I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: squads

                        Originally posted by Manny View Post
                        Mind you, there has been a bit of a shift in people since I joined TG (the first time). The first time i ever joined the /Tactical Gamer channel, I was inundated with a flood of text from extremely vocal people... Luna, Lunchbox... and... um... Damnit. Can't remember the guys name... Grump.. gramp.. something like that.

                        Its Grumple you bone head.....lol and oh how I have missed him...Though You didnt talk to me much ( you stuck up thing you) we did have some good conversations....lol
                        Candrice 63 Warrior
                        Ricca 70 Rogue
                        Machelle 70 Mage
                        Enya 74 Druid

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: squads

                          Originally posted by Ricca View Post
                          Its Grumple you bone head.....lol and oh how I have missed him...Though You didnt talk to me much ( you stuck up thing you) we did have some good conversations....lol
                          Ricca, when i joined the guild, you had some horrible throat infection. you sounded like a Georgian bullfrog. :P Besides, I'd rather let you do all the talking. it's better that way.
                          _________________



                          I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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