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  • Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

    Ok so I've been tinkering around with some tallent change ideas. I realy realy think that as is, the tallent trees are just fine, with the exception of the bottom tier tallents for each tree. Now this is an idea in progress so i'm basicaly just posting for responses and ideas to perfect this change a little more?

    (purly just an idea I came up with. This is in no way a blizzard idea though it would be lovly if they considerd it *wink wink*)

    http://talents.unleashedgaming.net/?p=vt&i=21352

  • #2
    Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

    Looks good, I think earth shield would be spiffy as enhancement except:

    Enhancement shaman have no spell damage, so ES would heal for like...200.
    What enhancement shaman really need is a way to lower aggro. Something like an "air shock" or "windshock" that does X amount of damage (something low to keep it in check) and lowers aggro by a certain amount.

    I can't speak for the other specs, but your ideas look good.

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    • #3
      Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

      Originally posted by Starrocketer View Post
      Ok so I've been tinkering around with some tallent change ideas. I realy realy think that as is, the tallent trees are just fine, with the exception of the bottom tier tallents for each tree. Now this is an idea in progress so i'm basicaly just posting for responses and ideas to perfect this change a little more?

      (purly just an idea I came up with. This is in no way a blizzard idea though it would be lovly if they considerd it *wink wink*)

      http://talents.unleashedgaming.net/?p=vt&i=21352
      The Resto tree is pretty solid right now. I know a couple of Shaman that are pushing +1350 healing and their Earth Shield is healing for 800 a tick. The Elemental and Enhancement trees however are in need of some love.

      A pure Elemental build is capable of pushing out some very big numbers but it just doesn't have enough mana replenishment or efficiency to be raid viable. Unless you're willing to chug Super Mana Pots like there's no tomorrow then you'll be spending a lot of time OOM. The 2.1 patch is going to make this even worse. The group buffs for this tree are fantastic but it doesn't outweigh the mana issues.

      Enhancement is great tree but as Halten says it has one MAJOR problem and that's Aggro. DPS in this tree is predicated on WF and Crits and with no active aggro dump that's a bad combo. Prior to the pending WF adjustment, I was able to hold the #1 or #2 dps spot on each run but the challenges of aggro management were severe. The only solution I found was to hold off dps till 90% or stop damage periodically throughout the fight. This tends to be really counterproductive for a tree that's meant to be dps heavy.

      My favorite build happens to be 41/0/20. This give me a lot of dps from Elemental but some really solid healing talents. I can also pit up Natures Swiftness and Elemental Mastery!! It's a lot of fun to stand in the back with the casters and drop WoA and start spamming LB's. Then if things got dicey I have enough points in Resto to be a fairly compentent backup healer. The tricky part is not going hog wild with the dps and depleting all your mana. It's tough to save 20-30% in case you need it for heals. :)

      I LOVE this class, I just hope Blizzard figures out how to tweak it to make it more raid viable.
      “Waiting to be awakened by some unexpected thunderous roar, never dying...the sleeping giant lives and will sleep no more”. - John Seabrook

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      • #4
        Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

        Bear....a healer....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

        Oh sorry, let me re-read, oh he DID say that HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        :):)
        Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

        | | |

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        • #5
          Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

          Yeah I have to agree with everything above. I have to mention that I forgot to reduce the mana cost for the earth shield for all ranks by half. But yeah definitly I can see enhancement has SERIOUS threat issues. As it is I'm just gawking as I was watching an enhancement shammy pull agro off of a very competent protection warrior. Just wow

          The resoning behind no major buff to the amount of healing earth shield does is for the sheer fact that a shaman, even a enhancement, needs some kind of excuse to self heal :P . If earth shield became anything significant then all the shaman would have to do is spam earth shield. I did reduce the chance to ignore spell interupt mechanics from 30% to 20% to encourage self healing and to not entirly neglect the restoration tree. BUT.. maby it was better off at 30% as that still is a pretty low chance to ignore interrupts ;P.

          Currently my shaman is elemental and yeah we DEFINITLY need more mana conservation. This upcomming nerf is gonna take a hit to the crotch for us lightning chuckers. As far as the short fight we do excelent. But i'm noticing more and more in groups with long bosses I run out of mana waaaaay to quickly. And that with the current 100% free mana after a spell crit.

          For elemental, I believe the nerf to the clear casting tallent does need to be made, but not down to 60%. I could live with 85% or 90% realy. Yes 90%. No... what am I saying even with 100% it's not keeping the mana count up. People complain that it can be abused by spaming the rank 1 lightning bolt untill you get a clear cast.

          Umm.... ok could you ever see a mage spamming rank 1 fire ball or frost bolt untill they get a clear cast? Nope didn't think so. No one in raid, pvp, or pve would sainly do so instead of waiting for a decent amount of mana to regen for a heal or burst damage spell.

          ___________________

          I can see needing to create something that reduces threat on the target for enhancement. Though i'm not sure if thats something a tallent should nessarily do. I thought about a nature shock that reduces agro, but has an individual cool down of like....30 seconds. Mmm, maby not. As a shock would go for all tallent trees. Then again maby the shaman needs that. Hmmm. Interesting.

          Ok lets pull this idea outa the air. What about a 10 tallent requirement Spell in the resoration tree that gives teh shaman a shock that has a 30 second cool down. It's nature, it costs like... 30 mana to begin with and increases with level. The shock reduces threat on the target greatly. Kind of like a priest's fade. Not sure what else to give it without making it almost OP. (like a short buff that regenerates a very small amount of mana)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

            Originally posted by TG_Bear View Post
            A pure Elemental build is capable of pushing out some very big numbers but it just doesn't have enough mana replenishment or efficiency to be raid viable. Unless you're willing to chug Super Mana Pots like there's no tomorrow then you'll be spending a lot of time OOM. The 2.1 patch is going to make this even worse. The group buffs for this tree are fantastic but it doesn't outweigh the mana issues.
            Honestly? This is something pretty much ever primary caster but warlocks have to deal with. As a full frost mage, i have the most efficient nukes a mage can get..and i still frequently have to use potions in fights of any duration. In any of the 25 man encounters, i'm rather sure i'll end up having to use mana potions nearly as much as priests. While yes, Shaman do also have a smaller pool to work with, and need to save more mana for totems, heals, etc, it's not something limited to them. I make the 20 charged mana potion injectors..and right now, i'm halfway through my second, after the last few weeks.

            In fact, Shaman probably regenerate better than mages, due to the plethora of mp5 mail, and the int -> mp5 talent. All mages have is a bigger pool, due to our evocation, and our mana gems. (both of which are factored into the class design, and assumed as a part of our mana regen model..not given as a boon or benefit). and Mage armor, while very good, is limited, due to the necessity for mages to neglect spirit, while focusing on the more essential stats of +dmg, spell crit, spell hit, intellect and stamina..all of which give better returns, than the supbar spirit does for a class perpetually within the 5 second rule of halted regen.

            and frankly, Shaman Bolts scale ridiculously well. 3.0 second coefficient on a 2 second nuke..with no +dmg tax? yowzers. That's efficiency.

            Originally posted by Starrocketer View Post
            For elemental, I believe the nerf to the clear casting tallent does need to be made, but not down to 60%. I could live with 85% or 90% realy. Yes 90%. No... what am I saying even with 100% it's not keeping the mana count up. People complain that it can be abused by spaming the rank 1 lightning bolt untill you get a clear cast.

            Umm.... ok could you ever see a mage spamming rank 1 fire ball or frost bolt untill they get a clear cast? Nope didn't think so. No one in raid, pvp, or pve would sainly do so instead of waiting for a decent amount of mana to regen for a heal or burst damage spell.
            The reason for the spamming of rank 1 lightning bolt was because, due to the totems with - mana cost on lightning bolt, the rank 1 was a free spell. Because it was free, and because the crit made the next spell free, they could continue to cast, while maintaining full spirit regen. Were it not for this, there would have been no problem A mage doesn't have a straight reduction of mana cost for any of their spells..it's all percentile. As such, we cannot use the same mechanic.

            Personally, I feel a far better fix would have made it so that the totems cannot reduce the cost of the lightning bolt below 1 mana. That would make the cost reduction totems work just fine when used as intended with the high level nukes, while removing the very odd mechanic of spamming rank 1's for clearcasts while maintaining full regen.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

              Originally posted by Starrocketer View Post
              Umm.... ok could you ever see a mage spamming rank 1 fire ball or frost bolt untill they get a clear cast? Nope didn't think so. No one in raid, pvp, or pve would sainly do so instead of waiting for a decent amount of mana to regen for a heal or burst damage spell.

              Fully speced frost mages in PvP sometimes switch to spamming Frostbolt rank 1 (1 second cast with snare) to snare people quickly. They also spam it because its faster for their frostbite before winding up a larger near 'instacrit, higher ranked spell.

              Fully speced fire mages in PvP sometimes spam Fireball rank 1 (1 second cast) to stop people quickly with their impact talent giving them a short stun.

              Fully specced shadow priests in PvP AND PvE spam rank 1 shadow word: pain (25 mana) in order to throw up shadow weaving, blackout, and misery before working on their longer spells. I've had shadow priests follow me around spam casting SW:P 1 on me until blackout and then casting mind blast and mind flay in that short stun to keep me close.

              Fully specced holy priests in PvP AND PvE spam cast gheal 1 (375 mana) in order to get the clearcasting talent before throwing down the heavier rank 7 (825 mana) sometimes in order to keep HPM high. Of course they'll rank up if the target takes more damage, but its rarely that a priest will freely use the highest ranked heal unless they have dire need.

              Downranking is a viable strategy and there will be someone somewhere using (and sometimes abusing) it to the fullest. Also what Deleo said about shamans regening mana while doing free (low though) damage is also true. A shaman with the proper build can sit there and chuck LB1 until the cows come home and throw out a clearcasting chain lightning with 5% chance to cast twice, X% chance to get another clearcasting crit, and whatever else you stack on top of that.
              My sanity is not in question...
              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                ok heres a link to a newer version. I think you'll like the new restoration tallent spell. I know the elemental tree still needs work, but I honestly think if blizzard would just leave the clear casting tallent at 100% free of mana cost, that even that would be good enough for now. It does need something, but 1 step at a time :P

                http://talents.unleashedgaming.net/?p=vt&i=21472

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                  I laugh at Avatar: Spirit of Air. You want to give elemental shamans 15% chance to double their crit rate and chance of clearcasting.

                  Mmmm...spam cast LB1 and then cast CL with clearcasting with a 15% chance to double cast and 15-25% chance to crit per spell.
                  My sanity is not in question...
                  It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                  Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                    Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                    Fully speced frost mages in PvP sometimes switch to spamming Frostbolt rank 1 (1 second cast with snare) to snare people quickly. They also spam it because its faster for their frostbite before winding up a larger near 'instacrit, higher ranked spell.

                    Fully speced fire mages in PvP sometimes spam Fireball rank 1 (1 second cast) to stop people quickly with their impact talent giving them a short stun.

                    Fully specced shadow priests in PvP AND PvE spam rank 1 shadow word: pain (25 mana) in order to throw up shadow weaving, blackout, and misery before working on their longer spells. I've had shadow priests follow me around spam casting SW:P 1 on me until blackout and then casting mind blast and mind flay in that short stun to keep me close.

                    Fully specced holy priests in PvP AND PvE spam cast gheal 1 (375 mana) in order to get the clearcasting talent before throwing down the heavier rank 7 (825 mana) sometimes in order to keep HPM high. Of course they'll rank up if the target takes more damage, but its rarely that a priest will freely use the highest ranked heal unless they have dire need.

                    Downranking is a viable strategy and there will be someone somewhere using (and sometimes abusing) it to the fullest. Also what Deleo said about shamans regening mana while doing free (low though) damage is also true. A shaman with the proper build can sit there and chuck LB1 until the cows come home and throw out a clearcasting chain lightning with 5% chance to cast twice, X% chance to get another clearcasting crit, and whatever else you stack on top of that.
                    Originally posted by Deleo View Post
                    The reason for the spamming of rank 1 lightning bolt was because, due to the totems with - mana cost on lightning bolt, the rank 1 was a free spell. Because it was free, and because the crit made the next spell free, they could continue to cast, while maintaining full spirit regen. Were it not for this, there would have been no problem A mage doesn't have a straight reduction of mana cost for any of their spells..it's all percentile. As such, we cannot use the same mechanic.

                    Personally, I feel a far better fix would have made it so that the totems cannot reduce the cost of the lightning bolt below 1 mana. That would make the cost reduction totems work just fine when used as intended with the high level nukes, while removing the very odd mechanic of spamming rank 1's for clearcasts while maintaining full regen
                    I can see the argument of timming your rank 1 spell just right so that it is no cost to you. But honestly. Where can that be viably timed and use? Raid. Plain and simple. If your spamming that in pve instead of hitting them with your lovly shammy buffed weapon, your gonna get a fresh bonking session comming from yours truly. Maby I can see the making the cost of it to be at least 1 mana but people lets get real and honest. This is such a low abuse. As stated this can honestly only be viable in raid. If the player has the timming skills to pull of a perfectly timed rank 1 lightning bolt to regenerate mana through spirit and get a possible 100% free mana spell for the next toss of mana then bravo to them and congrats you will make an excelent addition to any raiding team.

                    Ok but these people are spamming these rank one spell to abuse thier off effects. Rank 1 frost bolt? As you stated it's frostbite and frankly a 1 second snare. Awsome in all aspects of play including raid.

                    The one second fire ball. Once again this is just strategic. Spamming for a stun is.... so highly unlikly for a mage to use in pvp it's rediculous. Is it possible? Maby. But get close enogh to spam that in pvp when you should have been spamming instants and your are going to get owned. I'm sorry but rank 1 fireball spam realy has no place.

                    BUT
                    Honestly how is this any more abuse than the above stated? Quick snare? Quick stun? Running while buffing with the priest dot seems pretty cool if not patheticaly ingenious of the priest but not game breaking. Come on people. Can you honestly say that this is THAT much of an abuse compared to what every other class can do?


                    Editorial Note: 5/14/2007, 9:40pm
                    Ok. Buy doing this trick in raid, yes they would essential, exponentialy increase thier damage in raid for the sheer fact they can cast longer than... realy any other class if they can pull this off. I think I'd like to see the change deleo segjusted but even to a greater extent. Possibly no lower that 5 mana? Sugjestions?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                      Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                      I laugh at Avatar: Spirit of Air. You want to give elemental shamans 15% chance to double their crit rate and chance of clearcasting.

                      Mmmm...spam cast LB1 and then cast CL with clearcasting with a 15% chance to double cast and 15-25% chance to crit per spell.
                      Yeah I have to admit that is quite a bit over powerd :P It was just an idea to toss out to get responses back. Though if I did change it I'd drop it to 10% or give them something different.

                      Constructive criticism? What else coudl go here? Ideas? Changes? Besides just getting rid of it? :P

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                        The shaman class is, typically, a very self orientated class so the talent skills are generally geared towards being more friendly to groups. Mana Tide, Totem of Wrath, Earth Shield, Stormstrike (balance druids love ya ;)), and Nature's Swiftness follow through with this to be good for solo and group work.

                        Now if you want to follow that model my suggestion is to maybe provide an offensive version of Mana Tide so that heavy elemental can get some mana regen as well. I always through Oomkin should give mana back per crit like Feral druids give back health.

                        Nature's Wrath X mana (400 would be the same as VT)
                        1.5 second cast No cooldown
                        Causes the target to take 10% extra damage from any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell for 15 seconds and causes the caster to regain mana equal to 5% of any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell damage they deal.

                        It's basically Vampiric Touch without the DoT component and works per caster instead of a flat from caster to group. Alternatively you could use...

                        Nature's Wrath X mana (400 would be the same as VT)
                        1.5 second cast No cooldown
                        Causes the target to take 10% extra damage from any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell for 15 seconds and causes all party members to gain mana equal to 5% of any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell damage you deal.
                        My sanity is not in question...
                        It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                        Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                          I do the 4xSWP Rank 1 plus 1 full rank SWP on some bosses and anytime I use my shadowfiend while farming.
                          Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                          Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                          ...and other distractions of various levels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                            Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                            The shaman class is, typically, a very self orientated class so the talent skills are generally geared towards being more friendly to groups. Mana Tide, Totem of Wrath, Earth Shield, Stormstrike (balance druids love ya ;)), and Nature's Swiftness follow through with this to be good for solo and group work.

                            Now if you want to follow that model my suggestion is to maybe provide an offensive version of Mana Tide so that heavy elemental can get some mana regen as well. I always through Oomkin should give mana back per crit like Feral druids give back health.

                            Nature's Wrath X mana (400 would be the same as VT)
                            1.5 second cast No cooldown
                            Causes the target to take 10% extra damage from any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell for 15 seconds and causes the caster to regain mana equal to 5% of any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell damage they deal.

                            It's basically Vampiric Touch without the DoT component and works per caster instead of a flat from caster to group. Alternatively you could use...

                            Nature's Wrath X mana (400 would be the same as VT)
                            1.5 second cast No cooldown
                            Causes the target to take 10% extra damage from any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell for 15 seconds and causes all party members to gain mana equal to 5% of any Nature, Fire, or Frost spell damage you deal.
                            Wow! Oh wow! I love this idea. The avatar thing is cool graphicaly and all (im' thinking swirling white wind here) but I think I love this idea much much more. Yeah the mana regen thing is nice :D Esspecialy if it was to all group memebers! But I'm debating if that would take away from the specialty of shadow priests in raid. Hmmm. Not sure. But being heavy elemental, with that being the final tier spell ablilty and if it did regen the mana to all party memebers, that would certainly make elemental shaman much more lovable in raid <3.

                            So new question? I'd like to put this tallent in the final tier. As a vote from yall, which would seem more fair as far as class balancing?

                            The version with mana regen to the party?
                            OR
                            The version with mana regen to only the shaman?


                            Personaly I'm in favor of the party though I'd have to closly compare the differences with the shadow priest ability! Though alas I'm slightly biast. Woot lightning chuckers. Whats YOUR vote o_O?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Shaman Tallent Change: Ideas?

                              You know, I never read double posts since I generally skip to the bottom for replies. -.-

                              Then I look back and wonder "What's this long thing with quotes?" OH! It's a double post. Bah...I should probably reply

                              Originally posted by Starrocketer View Post
                              Ok but these people are spamming these rank one spell to abuse thier off effects. Rank 1 frost bolt? As you stated it's frostbite and frankly a 1 second snare. Awsome in all aspects of play including raid.
                              Frostbolt 1 is a 1.5 second (1 second with talents) cast spell that reduces movement speed by 40% (50% with talents) for 5 seconds (8 seconds with talents) AND can proc frostbite (immobilized for 5 seconds and +0-50% crit rate on next spell).

                              In short its a ranged wingclip/hamstring for any runner and very frustrating in WSG.
                              My sanity is not in question...
                              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                              Comment

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