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  • Direction

    I wanted to get some discussion going about the overall direction/goals of the guild. We have two squads that have cleared KZ as well as two others that, if they weren't missing some key individuals/reliable backups week to week, would be doing even better. I know this particular time of year makes it more difficult with vacations and other RL commitments being more common.

    Past KZ we've ducked our head into Gruul once and for a variety of reasons have not been back. It seems obvious that this instance should be the one we're gunning for now. I know I'm not alone in being frustrated by this. However, blindly lashing out isn't going to fix anything - it never has - so let's get talking about what we need to do.

    I've also seen discussion popping up about running alts in Illidan's KZ group - which I was happy to see Sajier's reply.

    The reason I mention this is because I'd like to see more leadership pushing us forward into new content. I'm not singling out anyone in particular. But if our goal is to get into Gruul's then we should make other decisions with this in mind. We've lacked people for Gruul's. Why is that? How can we fix it? People that have been raiding with Illidan and Defiant are geared for it, but past that I don't know.

    Taking Defiant as an example what I would like to see is us ditch MIU weeks entirely and "expand" our roster to include people from either Special Forces or Cocidius (or others that aren't currently squaded) to run KZ. Take 3-4 total from this pool each week with the other 6-7 spots for people with more experience. I think this will lower the learning curve for the 3-4 newer people for the fights they haven't seen and should help them obtain the gear necessary for beyond KZ quicker. I would love to see Illidan do the same. The first question that is going to pop up is can the guild then support 4 seperate squads if we're doing this. It appears to me that we wouldn't be able to. However, it may be better than the current situation where lack of key classes and backups prohibit one squad (sometimes more than one) each week of getting in at all.

    This is just an idea to remedy what I see as a potential problem. I don't want Gruul's to turn into what BWL was for us. Everyone got comfortable and bored with MC to the point we were running 20 alts in which did nothing to move us forward in BWL. In that case we didn't have the people to run, but now we do. We have two squads of people that can use the help of the two squads that went in first.

    I feel comfortable assuming that everyone from Illidan is motivated to get into Gruul's since I know their personalities from raiding pre-BC. Many of the newer members I don't know as well, but I have talked with a number of them and if I'm right in thinking they want to keep pushing further past KZ and into Gruul's and beyond then let's come up with some ways to make it happen.

    Thoughts?
    Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
    Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
    ...and other distractions of various levels.

  • #2
    Re: Direction

    25 Man stuff:
    The officers are in the process of working on a lot of stuff for the 25 mans. We are in the process of defining clear requirements of what is necessary, figuring out what we need and who currently qualifies, and how all of this is going to go.

    We have had a couple officer meetings working on this stuff, and are having more, and we will be rolling out all of this shortly, so please give us the time we need to do this right, so we have clear requirements, goals, and reasoning behind it spelled out for everyone.

    We don't want to rush into this and have people questioning how we are doing it when we could take the time to do it right the first time.

    Please be patient. Within the next few weeks you will have all of this completely spelled out and the first steps already taken on the road to the 25 mans.

    Alts:
    Illidan was on the cusp of an alt raid last night. We finished Karazhan in 2 nights, and our squad almost has enough people to run a second Karazhan raid with alts. However, if the newer squads can use the alts on their raids, and they aren't coinciding with Illidan raids, I would much rather see those alts used for advancing mains. Illidan has had the most consistent turn out of all of the squads and with 1-2 more clears of Karazhan I am going to feel comfortable calling it on farm status.

    Illidan mains still have a lot of gear that we want out of there, so the mains aren't going to be stopping raiding, the alt raid we tried to put together was just for fun to see what we could do with a completley different set of characters. The Karazhan raid that was scheduled for the night was full, so they weren't going to be there.

    That said. If our mains finish Karazhan in 2 days (which sets us up for the 25 mans), then if alts are available for Karazhan, they are more than welcome to run with the other squads, or if we can get it formed, run one ourselves. If we are locked in on our mains, I don't see this as an issue.

    Swapping:
    There has been a lot of discussion of this among the officers, and there will be more. You will probably see a full post on this soon as far as pros/cons and thoughts.
    Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

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    • #3
      Re: Direction

      Thanks for your response Sajier, having been a guild officer in a previous guild I am aware of the logistical issues with coming up with that kind of information. Its not an easy thing and I hope everyone takes a moment to realize that.

      However, I don't think we need to wait for a few weeks to deal with some of the items I discussed. Specifically the taking in of people that haven't been able to consistantly get into KZ. That's something that I doubt is part of the officer discussion at the moment anyway. And if it is, then honestly its not something that needs to stay just in the officer forums. :).

      Furthermore, by process of this kind of discussion we may be able to help you officers out.

      Hehe - you editted your post while I was writing mine.

      Interesting thoughts on alts helping out. While I think that could be beneficial I doubt it would be quite as helpful as pulling non-squad members in. Nights of DE-ing everything from the first 7 bosses doesn't help anyone.
      Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
      Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
      ...and other distractions of various levels.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Direction

        FWIW, I don't want this to turn into an argument about alts-rights or anything. God knows we've had enough of those. I also don't want it to be an argument at all.

        But I would like to have a discussion about things that I know people are thinking. I realize the officers are always working on many items. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it though.
        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
        ...and other distractions of various levels.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Direction

          <--going to let another officer respond on what we are working on because I could go on forever here :).

          There are a lot of pros and cons already in discussion on this, namely the fact that pulling people through Karazhan doesn't necessarily give them the skills and experience they gain by learning the fights the old fashion way, but that doing so does increase gear/experience.

          As I learned in MIU week when I ran the Special Forces/Cocidius squad, the pace I run things in Illidan caused tension and lack of understanding because they weren't comfortable with the pace I ran things, namely that I kept the pace very high like an Illidan raid when some weren't comfortable with that breakneck speed. We killed a lot of bosses, but aftewards I found out that people felt lost and frustrated because they didn't have enough time to take it all in. If they stepped into an Illidan raid, would they really gain that experience fully knowing that the pace we run things is so different from what they are used to?

          There are a lot of possible impacts here.
          Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

          | | |

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Direction

            As Sajier said, this is "front burner" for the guild right now. Thank you, Pistos for being upfront about your concerns and your interests!!

            A quick overview...
            1. We're nearly done with laying out minimum gear/experience requirements for the 25 man raiding group.
            2. Based on the preliminary work, less than 20 guildies actually meet these requirements.
            3. The "homework" done about Gruul's Lair (and beyond) is very thorough and indicates that we'd be wasting our time and gold to do much UNTIL we have a full raid that is geared and has the "right" class balance for the critical classes (tanks, healers, etc.).
            4. Leadership of the guild IS committed to progression and to putting forth a credible 25 man raiding group (which will have more than 25 in it!) that can get us back to tackling new content. I want it as soon as we can...but we need to do it "right".
            5. Reality check: our top 2 squads have cleared KZ a couple of times. That's NOT having KZ on farm status. I'll consider changing that judgment once each squad has another two clears (in 2 nights or less) under their belts. Even then, we will STILL be running it for gear upgrades.
            6. Sense of urgency: we are meeting (in various officer groupings) multiple times per week to work through the key bits about a raiding group. As an example, once the initial group is "set", how do we handle the situation when other guildies or new recruits "graduate" to the minimum standards? Do you ask the founding raiders to sit out? We've had problems with this before in "old WoW". Do we expand the guild by aggressive recruiting to be able to put forth 2 raiding groups? If expansion is decided, how do we recruit capable raiders unless we can offer them active raiding from the get-go? etc. etc.

            So...we're working on it. We expect to have more specifics to announce in a week or two. I hope this helps.
            Beep


            Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Direction

              Pistos anytime you have concerns please bring them up because whatever got you thinking/feeling others could be feeling the same..Alts hmmm well i have 2 lvl 70s and i dont see anything wrong with bringing them into a raid if they are needed..Alts can be useful considering we cant find people to fill raids at times...
              Candrice 63 Warrior
              Ricca 70 Rogue
              Machelle 70 Mage
              Enya 74 Druid

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Direction

                Don't have time to give my elaborate thoughts on all this right now, but I did want to echo everything Pistos has said. I don't want to be negative here and can't seem to craft anything at the moment that isn't; I'll try again later. Suffice it to say I am very disappointed with the way things are going and even parts of the officer responses here...

                I'd really like to see more discussion in this post...
                70 Priest

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Direction

                  If people have questions, I am sitting on TS atm, I am more than willing to discuss any concerns people may have. We are doing the best we can to get everything going, but we are trying to make sure everything is done right.
                  Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                  | | |

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Direction

                    Ricca - don't worry. I've never been one to shy away from speaking my mind. I do always try to do it in a positive manner and suggest ideas that might help. Its very easy to say "this sucks" without spending time and effort trying to make something better.

                    Beep - I'm not claiming that anyone has KZ on farm. Both Defiant and Illidan do have number of bosses on farm. And for the most part are going to be de-ing the majority of gear. Whatever is finally decided on a raiding group and/or requirements (of which I'm all in favor of), is fine with me. Just trying to spur on the discussion of what else we as a guild can do.

                    Saj - I totally respect the amount of preparation that you put into everything you do. This never was meant to knock what you were doing. The alt thing was mentioned and it struck a nerve with me, I hope you don't think I'm being too aggressive in saying that I'm bothered by the idea of it. As far as your leadership style you say that it may be too "fast". But you're one of the leaders for Gruul's so that could be a problem if that's the first time people see it. I don't believe that if Illidan or Defiant has 3-4 "guests" running with them each week it will be like the new people not learning anything. Sure it will slow the raid down because you have to explain again. And maybe there's a wipe or two, but in the end I cannot believe that anyone would think there are more negatives than positives.

                    To all of the officers. I know you guys are doing alot to help. Working on requirements is a big, long process. I don't have any doubt in your intention. I'm only suggesting an idea and at the same time trying to get others to give input. Not just officers, though I'm glad you guys are here chatting :D, but everyone. We all have to talk about this. I'm especially interested in hearing what the guys (and gals) from Spec. Forces and Cocidius think.
                    Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                    Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                    ...and other distractions of various levels.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Direction

                      Originally posted by Sajier View Post
                      If people have questions, I am sitting on TS atm, I am more than willing to discuss any concerns people may have. We are doing the best we can to get everything going, but we are trying to make sure everything is done right.
                      Can't right now. I'm tutoring my wife's friend in functions for her algebra course. If you're on later I'll find ya though. Its important to me that you and the other officers don't think I'm trying to attack you guys. I know that you're doing a ton. I do think its important to keep the discussion open though so everyone doesn't begin to feel stagnant. And while you guys probably get sick of talking about something in officer forums or officer chat we out here just get bits and pieces of rumor. This is something that's been rumbling in my head for a while now and I just finally got to the point where I felt it was necessary to post it.

                      Hopefully she'll get the hang of functions quick and I'll be able to log on :D.
                      Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                      Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                      ...and other distractions of various levels.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Direction

                        WoW,,,alot of forum activity happens when I have little time to read it. Expect me to reply to this and others sooner or later.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Direction

                          Ok, I have a few concerns.

                          The suggestion to drag people through is great for gear but it doesn't teach people important aspects of the game. You can't just drag people through and give orders on how to play their class. Haven't we learned from our MC runs? Yes, phat loot for everyone but did everyone learn something from MC. There was a lot of hand holding in there. Sorry to beat this dead dog with a stick but you need people to learn how to play their role/class and react accordingly when things don't go right without being told to do so.

                          Why not take the time to share some of the things you have learned about playing your role/class with others. I know we do that a lot here but not all of the guild reads these forums.

                          So with that being said, I think we need to take one inexperienced end gamer and pair them with an experienced end gamer of the same class. Sort of like a big brother/sister program to help some people understand their role/class better. Also, maybe reviving the tghealer, tghunter(the few, the proud, the uberly geared...tarenth give me your bow :p) etc...channels to field questions during the raids.

                          Again, like Pistos, this is not a knock on anyone. I'm just trying to think out of the box to help us progress. I just don't want Gruul to end up the way BWL did.

                          Just my two cents.

                          Any thoughts?
                          "Remember that all things are only opinions and that it is in your power to think as you please."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Direction

                            I understand that our guild officers are working on this priority issue so I'm not sure I have much to add at this point. I definitely agree w/ Pistos on the need for positive discussion and information on this subject, but also agree w/ Wintrow in that it's hard to be positive and looking forward without having a clue what the plan is. After last week's cancelled attempt due to lack of numbers and balance I did a quick headcount.

                            Number of Lvl 70's as of Friday 7/6/07:

                            Druid: 12 - 1 secondary = 11
                            Hunter: 15 - 2 secondary = 13
                            Mage: 22 - 9 secondary = 13
                            Paladin: 17 - 3 secondary = 14
                            Priest: 13 - 2 secondary = 11
                            Rogue: 19 - 4 secondary = 15
                            Shaman: 4 - 1 secondary = 3
                            Warlock: 12 - 5 secondary = 7
                            Warrior: 17 - 3 secondary = 13

                            Total Number of Lvl 70's = 131
                            Total Number of Lvl 70 Secondary = 31
                            Total Number of Lvl 70 Primary = 100

                            It seems that we have the numbers to field a balanced 25 man group, so the main issues appear to be preparation, organization & gear. It sounds like the guild officers are in the process of evaluating these issues, so hopefully we can get an update soon.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Direction

                              As Beep said, of the 100 Level 70 Primaries in guild, only 20ish meet the requirements we are working on. There are a 5 or 6 more who are very close and will hopefully be able to meet them in the next couple weeks.

                              The issue with just sending 25 people into Gruul's or any of the 25 mans is that without the proper gear/stats and situational awareness even one person not being on their game can lead to a wipe. Let's, for example, take the Primary healers since that is the one I know best. If a primary healer doesn't have the mana regen and mana pool to handle and maintain the constant heals required to overcome the 10-13k DPS that Maulgar throws out, then the chances for success go down before we even get started. Being able to react quickly to changes in the situation (add breaks loose, have to adjust locations due to an AE or maintain spacing due to Gruul's shatter) is essential in these raids, and if someone doesn't react quickly, then we are all at risk.

                              This is the reason we are working on base requirements. The goal is to have a clear outline of where people need to be for the effectiness we are going to need. All the officers have been researching this stuff for over a month and a half, and we only have 2 classes left to define which hopefully should be done in the next few days, and 2 classes that are being re-evaluated and then we will have a clear view of where we feel we need to be.

                              Just as an example. Below are the priest gear requirements. I asked the priest mains what they felt about these and they helped me adjust them to what we felt was appropriate. In order meet these requirements, a priest needs to have put in a good amount of time in Karazhan, Heroics, trade-skill work and various factioning. They are all achievable and most of the priests are very close to having met them if they don't already.

                              Healing Priests
                              10k mana unbuffed
                              1400 healing unbuffed
                              110 mana/5 unbuffed
                              5/5 Silent Resolve (healing aggro reduction talent)

                              Shadow Priests
                              800 shadow damage unbuffed
                              3/3 Shadow Affinity (Shadow aggro reduction talent)

                              That said, what also is in consideration is what experience is necessary to show the appropriate level of situational awareness to handle the strats and fights we will be throwing at people in the 25 mans. This is still in the works but seems to be very close on most classes as well, and seems to be heavily weighted into the end of Karazhan.

                              This is just a small sample of what is being worked on. You will see full details coming out shortly on where we think things need to go and what needs to happen. I am guessing that in the next week you will see the requirements laid out. Im guessing that shortly after that you will see plans for how we will finish out the group and get our first real foothold into Gruul's.
                              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

                              | | |

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