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  • #16
    Re: Direction

    I absolutely agree that in order to be successful beyond KZ we must have players that know what they are doing. That being said I don't think Kara is the same animal that MC was. Its was very easy to drag people through MC and let them just stand around and do nothing but collect T1. But in KZ having a few people join an established group there's nowhere to hide - fights are designed so everyone has to do the "right" thing. Shade is a perfect example of this. Plus if you want newer people to gain experience faster having them run with a tighter group for a few weeks in a row will teach them more than trial and error.

    There may be currently be a lack of experience on some fights but I don't think there's a lack of ability in Cocidius and Special Forces. They've suffered from not having the proper class balance to get in there on a consistant basis. But you still have a solid group of roughly 6 or 7 players on each squad that is there every week that isn't able to do anything. Defiant's having the same issue right now with vacations and other RL issues.

    Again, the important thing is that if Gruul's is the next goal for the guild then the other decisions are made with that in mind. Looking at Aeryck's post we have the numbers. How is the best way to help people get the gear they need? I haven't seen any responses from the people in Special Forces or Cocidius yet, but I have no doubt that the leaders of those squads are doing everything they can to figure this out too.

    Thanks for taking the time to chat last night Saj. I do think everyone knows the officers are working on things. And I appreciate the update. Is there any way you can let us know what the requirements are for the classes you have already set? Eventually its all going to end up in some SOP thread, but its nice to see the progress. Do you need help with researching the other four classes (two being reevaluated and two you're still working on) so it can get done quicker? Of the classes that you have requirements for do we have a list of people that already meet these that can get with the people that don't so we can work on getting them up? There's a ton of gear that drops in heroics that people aren't locked into for a week that we could be working on for people who need help. Being able to see a list of people who are close could be a big help. Lastly, I know that we want to cover all the bases, but there really needs to be a middle ground between blazing in blindly and trying to make sure every possible question is answered before we make a move. I hope the officers aren't debating every item to death :D.
    Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
    Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
    ...and other distractions of various levels.

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    • #17
      Re: Direction

      Update 1.

      We will post the minimum gear requirements by class before the end of the week along with the list of those players who meet or exceed them.

      As stated earlier, our first review of the guild's players showed only 19 who met the MINIMUM standards. Our goal is to get 30 or so QUALIFIED 'toons into a raiding group with a good chance for success. This requires both the gear and the experience/heads up play that the 25 man content demands.

      So...I know you are anxious to get ahead. My desire for progress is at least as strong as any in the guild. For now we have to focus on continuing to run KZ and Heroics and the Arenas for the gear upgrades we will have to have for success. Meeting the minimum standards is only a starting point since at the minimums our margin for error is almost zero.
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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      • #18
        Re: Direction

        Thanks for the update Beep.

        Never have I questioned any of the officer's desire to progress into new content.

        I look forward to checking out the requirements and player lists as soon as soon as you have them ready and posted.

        Once we see who all we need to help perhaps we can make adjustments to help those players as quickly as possible - both in gaining gear and experience of the more crucial teamwork fights at the end of KZ.
        Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
        Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
        ...and other distractions of various levels.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Direction

          Update 2

          Here's a bit more of my view of where we are.

          1. Progression for us as a guild means moving on to 25 man content...Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal, Black Temple. ALL the instances beyond KZ are 25 man. Putting together 25 man raids with adequate class balance requires around 30 qualified players knowing that everyone can't attend every raid. We don't yet have those numbers so we have squads set up to run Karazhan.

          2. KZ is a stepping stone. Our current squads are stepping stones. Both are designed to gain us gear and playing experience needed for what comes later. Don't get me wrong...our current squads are important but they are ONLY A MEANS TO ENABLE FURTHER PROGRESS IN 25 MAN INSTANCES. Even so, we're still weeks away from having milked KZ for all the desirable gear. If you are one of the players who is ready to move on, the best thing to do to hurry along that process is to help get others up to the same standard...the raiding equivalent of grinding:)!

          3. We have asked the Squad Leaders to collaborate to develop specific steps needed to enable all those interested in getting through KZ...and to get through it as many times as needed to get players up to the minimum necessary for further progress. You'll hear more about that soon, but for now you'll see things like joint SF/Cocidius raids. That will help overcome attendance issues they've had. We also are in recruiting mode for players who want to start KZ and beyond.

          4. We have been actively researching what it takes for success in Gruul's Lair and beyond. We've talked to other guilds, read the strategies, watched the videos.
          • We've learned that there is little margin for error.
          • There is no substitute for having the minimum gear and experience.
          • There is no substitute for heads up play and good situational awareness with the ability to adjust "on the fly".
          • There is no substitute for having enough of the critical classes for the fights.
          • There is no substitute for regular attendance so that we're all learning together and moving up the learning curve as a group.
          • The 25 man instances are NOT the same as the old WoW 40 man instances. In those old instances, we could take along several undergeared players and still be successful. This proved harder to do in Blackwing Lair, but we were still making some headway. The "new" Burning Crusade instances are more complex with no resemblance to the old "Tank and Spank" fights.


          5. Scheduling future. While this is yet to be nailed down, for now we are focused on KZ runs for gearing up our players. Once we have sufficiently geared/experienced players, we'll have regular raids into Gruul's Lair. 25 man raids will occur at least one night per week and maybe 2 nights. We will probably have to revise all this on the fly once we start actually scheduling 25 man raids as a regular event. I can envision 2 (or 3) nights per week of KZ raiding continuing for quite some time. This is not a "new" concept. We used to run UBRS, etc. quite regularly while still scheduling Molten Core runs. As time passes, there are fewer lower level events and more focus on the higher level ones.

          We are fortunate to have capable raid leaders and a growing membership who wants progress and wants to see more of the end-game raiding content. We are on track to get us to what we want. There are no shortcuts, however.
          Last edited by beep; 07-10-2007, 12:57 PM.
          Beep


          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Direction

            Originally posted by beep View Post
            Update 2

            Here's a bit more of my view of where we are.

            1. Progression for us as a guild means moving on to 25 man content...Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal, Black Temple. ALL the instances beyond KZ are 25 man. Putting together 25 man raids with adequate class balance requires around 30 qualified players knowing that everyone can't attend every raid. We don't yet have those numbers so we have squads set up to run Karazhan.

            2. KZ is a stepping stone. Our current squads are stepping stones. Both are designed to gain us gear and playing experience needed for what comes later. Don't get me wrong...our current squads are important but they are ONLY A MEANS TO ENABLE FURTHER PROGRESS IN 25 MAN INSTANCES. Even so, we're still weeks away from having milked KZ for all the desirable gear. If you are one of the players who is ready to move on, the best thing to do to hurry along that process is to help get others up to the same standard...the raiding equivalent of grinding:)!

            3. We have asked the Squad Leaders to collaborate to develop specific steps needed to enable all those interested in getting through KZ...and to get through it as many times as needed to get players up to the minimum necessary for further progress. You'll hear more about that soon, but for now you'll see things like joint SF/Cocidius raids. That will help overcome attendance issues they've had. We also are in recruiting mode for players who want to start KZ and beyond.

            4. We have been actively researching what it takes for success in Gruul's Lair and beyond. We've talked to other guilds, read the strategies, watched the videos.
            • We've learned that there is little margin for error.
            • There is no substitute for having the minimum gear and experience.
            • There is no substitute for heads up play and good situational awareness with the ability to adjust "on the fly".
            • There is no substitute for having enough of the critical classes for the fights.
            • There is no substitute for regular attendance so that we're all learning together and moving up the learning curve as a group.
            • The 25 man instances are NOT the same as the old WoW 40 man instances. In those old instances, we could take along several undergeared players and still be successful. This proved harder to do in Blackwing Lair, but we were still making some headway. The "new" Burning Crusade instances are more complex with no resemblance to the old "Tank and Spank" fights.


            We are fortunate to have capable raid leaders and a growing membership who wants progress and wants to see more of the end-game raiding content. We are on track to get us to what we want. There are no shortcuts, however.

            Good to see some more information. And once we have some lists of people that are "qualified" then we as your player base can work with those that aren't to get them ready.

            Of course there's no reason why we can't continue to run KZ even after we are in Gruul's or beyond - so there's no need to get every possible upgrade out of one instance before starting to work on the next. Progression doesn't have to be one at instance at a time. But we absolutely need a group of people that are ready for "next".

            Until this information most of us outside the officer corp weren't aware of what track we were on. Just that officers were working on requirements that will be posted at a later date. Its good to see a definitive time when the requirements will be available for public viewing.

            I think most of us understand the reason why we need the proper gear/classes/attendance/experience/awareness for the 25mans. Figuring out the best and quickest way to do that is really the question. If that means making changes to some of the squad structure to make this happen more efficiently I think it would be a positive step for the guild. And that's what my original (and subsequent) post(s) are driving at. What can we do to help get this train moving and get those 30 people ready to rock and roll?

            Thanks again Beep. I'm happy that this post has garnered some discussion and I hope it continues.
            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
            ...and other distractions of various levels.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Direction

              1. Minimum requirements for 25 man raiding now posted.

              2. Current list of 'toons meeting the above requirements now posted.

              Please be advised that these posts are not "perfect", but they are our best take on where we are at the moment. Both posts will be revised as needed.
              Beep


              Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Direction

                Originally posted by Pistos View Post
                There may be currently be a lack of experience on some fights but I don't think there's a lack of ability in Cocidius and Special Forces. They've suffered from not having the proper class balance to get in there on a consistant basis. But you still have a solid group of roughly 6 or 7 players on each squad that is there every week that isn't able to do anything. Defiant's having the same issue right now with vacations and other RL issues.

                Again, the important thing is that if Gruul's is the next goal for the guild then the other decisions are made with that in mind. Looking at Aeryck's post we have the numbers. How is the best way to help people get the gear they need? I haven't seen any responses from the people in Special Forces or Cocidius yet, but I have no doubt that the leaders of those squads are doing everything they can to figure this out too.
                The Cocidius squad continues to expand it's squad members through recruitment of new TG'ers and friends of guildies. Our previous attendance problem is almost resolved as we have some newer members who are about to be keyed too.

                We have been making steady progress lately in Kara. Two nights ago was our first time downing Moroes. Last night was our first time downing Maiden. Our turnout for raids has improved immensely. Two nights ago we filled the raid and had to leave out 2 of our squad members who were wanting to go due to a surplus of dps folks. Last night we filled two empty slots with a tank from Special Forces and a healer from Sajier's friends list. Our next scheduled raid is going to be Sunday and we have 8 people signed up so far. So...things are looking good.

                We have also planned to do four raids next week with Special Forces in an effort to help each other out with making sure people are getting in there and raiding. Cocidius will continue to recruit as necessary (hopefully just one more healer and we'll be there) so that we can regularly fill out 3 raids a week. We will continue to be receptive to interest from other squads that are having trouble with attendance by arranging additional combo runs into Kara.

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