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  • Pistos
    started a topic Direction

    Direction

    I wanted to get some discussion going about the overall direction/goals of the guild. We have two squads that have cleared KZ as well as two others that, if they weren't missing some key individuals/reliable backups week to week, would be doing even better. I know this particular time of year makes it more difficult with vacations and other RL commitments being more common.

    Past KZ we've ducked our head into Gruul once and for a variety of reasons have not been back. It seems obvious that this instance should be the one we're gunning for now. I know I'm not alone in being frustrated by this. However, blindly lashing out isn't going to fix anything - it never has - so let's get talking about what we need to do.

    I've also seen discussion popping up about running alts in Illidan's KZ group - which I was happy to see Sajier's reply.

    The reason I mention this is because I'd like to see more leadership pushing us forward into new content. I'm not singling out anyone in particular. But if our goal is to get into Gruul's then we should make other decisions with this in mind. We've lacked people for Gruul's. Why is that? How can we fix it? People that have been raiding with Illidan and Defiant are geared for it, but past that I don't know.

    Taking Defiant as an example what I would like to see is us ditch MIU weeks entirely and "expand" our roster to include people from either Special Forces or Cocidius (or others that aren't currently squaded) to run KZ. Take 3-4 total from this pool each week with the other 6-7 spots for people with more experience. I think this will lower the learning curve for the 3-4 newer people for the fights they haven't seen and should help them obtain the gear necessary for beyond KZ quicker. I would love to see Illidan do the same. The first question that is going to pop up is can the guild then support 4 seperate squads if we're doing this. It appears to me that we wouldn't be able to. However, it may be better than the current situation where lack of key classes and backups prohibit one squad (sometimes more than one) each week of getting in at all.

    This is just an idea to remedy what I see as a potential problem. I don't want Gruul's to turn into what BWL was for us. Everyone got comfortable and bored with MC to the point we were running 20 alts in which did nothing to move us forward in BWL. In that case we didn't have the people to run, but now we do. We have two squads of people that can use the help of the two squads that went in first.

    I feel comfortable assuming that everyone from Illidan is motivated to get into Gruul's since I know their personalities from raiding pre-BC. Many of the newer members I don't know as well, but I have talked with a number of them and if I'm right in thinking they want to keep pushing further past KZ and into Gruul's and beyond then let's come up with some ways to make it happen.

    Thoughts?

  • Jest
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Originally posted by Pistos View Post
    There may be currently be a lack of experience on some fights but I don't think there's a lack of ability in Cocidius and Special Forces. They've suffered from not having the proper class balance to get in there on a consistant basis. But you still have a solid group of roughly 6 or 7 players on each squad that is there every week that isn't able to do anything. Defiant's having the same issue right now with vacations and other RL issues.

    Again, the important thing is that if Gruul's is the next goal for the guild then the other decisions are made with that in mind. Looking at Aeryck's post we have the numbers. How is the best way to help people get the gear they need? I haven't seen any responses from the people in Special Forces or Cocidius yet, but I have no doubt that the leaders of those squads are doing everything they can to figure this out too.
    The Cocidius squad continues to expand it's squad members through recruitment of new TG'ers and friends of guildies. Our previous attendance problem is almost resolved as we have some newer members who are about to be keyed too.

    We have been making steady progress lately in Kara. Two nights ago was our first time downing Moroes. Last night was our first time downing Maiden. Our turnout for raids has improved immensely. Two nights ago we filled the raid and had to leave out 2 of our squad members who were wanting to go due to a surplus of dps folks. Last night we filled two empty slots with a tank from Special Forces and a healer from Sajier's friends list. Our next scheduled raid is going to be Sunday and we have 8 people signed up so far. So...things are looking good.

    We have also planned to do four raids next week with Special Forces in an effort to help each other out with making sure people are getting in there and raiding. Cocidius will continue to recruit as necessary (hopefully just one more healer and we'll be there) so that we can regularly fill out 3 raids a week. We will continue to be receptive to interest from other squads that are having trouble with attendance by arranging additional combo runs into Kara.

    Leave a comment:


  • beep
    replied
    Re: Direction

    1. Minimum requirements for 25 man raiding now posted.

    2. Current list of 'toons meeting the above requirements now posted.

    Please be advised that these posts are not "perfect", but they are our best take on where we are at the moment. Both posts will be revised as needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Originally posted by beep View Post
    Update 2

    Here's a bit more of my view of where we are.

    1. Progression for us as a guild means moving on to 25 man content...Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal, Black Temple. ALL the instances beyond KZ are 25 man. Putting together 25 man raids with adequate class balance requires around 30 qualified players knowing that everyone can't attend every raid. We don't yet have those numbers so we have squads set up to run Karazhan.

    2. KZ is a stepping stone. Our current squads are stepping stones. Both are designed to gain us gear and playing experience needed for what comes later. Don't get me wrong...our current squads are important but they are ONLY A MEANS TO ENABLE FURTHER PROGRESS IN 25 MAN INSTANCES. Even so, we're still weeks away from having milked KZ for all the desirable gear. If you are one of the players who is ready to move on, the best thing to do to hurry along that process is to help get others up to the same standard...the raiding equivalent of grinding:)!

    3. We have asked the Squad Leaders to collaborate to develop specific steps needed to enable all those interested in getting through KZ...and to get through it as many times as needed to get players up to the minimum necessary for further progress. You'll hear more about that soon, but for now you'll see things like joint SF/Cocidius raids. That will help overcome attendance issues they've had. We also are in recruiting mode for players who want to start KZ and beyond.

    4. We have been actively researching what it takes for success in Gruul's Lair and beyond. We've talked to other guilds, read the strategies, watched the videos.
    • We've learned that there is little margin for error.
    • There is no substitute for having the minimum gear and experience.
    • There is no substitute for heads up play and good situational awareness with the ability to adjust "on the fly".
    • There is no substitute for having enough of the critical classes for the fights.
    • There is no substitute for regular attendance so that we're all learning together and moving up the learning curve as a group.
    • The 25 man instances are NOT the same as the old WoW 40 man instances. In those old instances, we could take along several undergeared players and still be successful. This proved harder to do in Blackwing Lair, but we were still making some headway. The "new" Burning Crusade instances are more complex with no resemblance to the old "Tank and Spank" fights.


    We are fortunate to have capable raid leaders and a growing membership who wants progress and wants to see more of the end-game raiding content. We are on track to get us to what we want. There are no shortcuts, however.

    Good to see some more information. And once we have some lists of people that are "qualified" then we as your player base can work with those that aren't to get them ready.

    Of course there's no reason why we can't continue to run KZ even after we are in Gruul's or beyond - so there's no need to get every possible upgrade out of one instance before starting to work on the next. Progression doesn't have to be one at instance at a time. But we absolutely need a group of people that are ready for "next".

    Until this information most of us outside the officer corp weren't aware of what track we were on. Just that officers were working on requirements that will be posted at a later date. Its good to see a definitive time when the requirements will be available for public viewing.

    I think most of us understand the reason why we need the proper gear/classes/attendance/experience/awareness for the 25mans. Figuring out the best and quickest way to do that is really the question. If that means making changes to some of the squad structure to make this happen more efficiently I think it would be a positive step for the guild. And that's what my original (and subsequent) post(s) are driving at. What can we do to help get this train moving and get those 30 people ready to rock and roll?

    Thanks again Beep. I'm happy that this post has garnered some discussion and I hope it continues.

    Leave a comment:


  • beep
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Update 2

    Here's a bit more of my view of where we are.

    1. Progression for us as a guild means moving on to 25 man content...Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine, The Eye, Mt. Hyjal, Black Temple. ALL the instances beyond KZ are 25 man. Putting together 25 man raids with adequate class balance requires around 30 qualified players knowing that everyone can't attend every raid. We don't yet have those numbers so we have squads set up to run Karazhan.

    2. KZ is a stepping stone. Our current squads are stepping stones. Both are designed to gain us gear and playing experience needed for what comes later. Don't get me wrong...our current squads are important but they are ONLY A MEANS TO ENABLE FURTHER PROGRESS IN 25 MAN INSTANCES. Even so, we're still weeks away from having milked KZ for all the desirable gear. If you are one of the players who is ready to move on, the best thing to do to hurry along that process is to help get others up to the same standard...the raiding equivalent of grinding:)!

    3. We have asked the Squad Leaders to collaborate to develop specific steps needed to enable all those interested in getting through KZ...and to get through it as many times as needed to get players up to the minimum necessary for further progress. You'll hear more about that soon, but for now you'll see things like joint SF/Cocidius raids. That will help overcome attendance issues they've had. We also are in recruiting mode for players who want to start KZ and beyond.

    4. We have been actively researching what it takes for success in Gruul's Lair and beyond. We've talked to other guilds, read the strategies, watched the videos.
    • We've learned that there is little margin for error.
    • There is no substitute for having the minimum gear and experience.
    • There is no substitute for heads up play and good situational awareness with the ability to adjust "on the fly".
    • There is no substitute for having enough of the critical classes for the fights.
    • There is no substitute for regular attendance so that we're all learning together and moving up the learning curve as a group.
    • The 25 man instances are NOT the same as the old WoW 40 man instances. In those old instances, we could take along several undergeared players and still be successful. This proved harder to do in Blackwing Lair, but we were still making some headway. The "new" Burning Crusade instances are more complex with no resemblance to the old "Tank and Spank" fights.


    5. Scheduling future. While this is yet to be nailed down, for now we are focused on KZ runs for gearing up our players. Once we have sufficiently geared/experienced players, we'll have regular raids into Gruul's Lair. 25 man raids will occur at least one night per week and maybe 2 nights. We will probably have to revise all this on the fly once we start actually scheduling 25 man raids as a regular event. I can envision 2 (or 3) nights per week of KZ raiding continuing for quite some time. This is not a "new" concept. We used to run UBRS, etc. quite regularly while still scheduling Molten Core runs. As time passes, there are fewer lower level events and more focus on the higher level ones.

    We are fortunate to have capable raid leaders and a growing membership who wants progress and wants to see more of the end-game raiding content. We are on track to get us to what we want. There are no shortcuts, however.
    Last edited by beep; 07-10-2007, 12:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Thanks for the update Beep.

    Never have I questioned any of the officer's desire to progress into new content.

    I look forward to checking out the requirements and player lists as soon as soon as you have them ready and posted.

    Once we see who all we need to help perhaps we can make adjustments to help those players as quickly as possible - both in gaining gear and experience of the more crucial teamwork fights at the end of KZ.

    Leave a comment:


  • beep
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Update 1.

    We will post the minimum gear requirements by class before the end of the week along with the list of those players who meet or exceed them.

    As stated earlier, our first review of the guild's players showed only 19 who met the MINIMUM standards. Our goal is to get 30 or so QUALIFIED 'toons into a raiding group with a good chance for success. This requires both the gear and the experience/heads up play that the 25 man content demands.

    So...I know you are anxious to get ahead. My desire for progress is at least as strong as any in the guild. For now we have to focus on continuing to run KZ and Heroics and the Arenas for the gear upgrades we will have to have for success. Meeting the minimum standards is only a starting point since at the minimums our margin for error is almost zero.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: Direction

    I absolutely agree that in order to be successful beyond KZ we must have players that know what they are doing. That being said I don't think Kara is the same animal that MC was. Its was very easy to drag people through MC and let them just stand around and do nothing but collect T1. But in KZ having a few people join an established group there's nowhere to hide - fights are designed so everyone has to do the "right" thing. Shade is a perfect example of this. Plus if you want newer people to gain experience faster having them run with a tighter group for a few weeks in a row will teach them more than trial and error.

    There may be currently be a lack of experience on some fights but I don't think there's a lack of ability in Cocidius and Special Forces. They've suffered from not having the proper class balance to get in there on a consistant basis. But you still have a solid group of roughly 6 or 7 players on each squad that is there every week that isn't able to do anything. Defiant's having the same issue right now with vacations and other RL issues.

    Again, the important thing is that if Gruul's is the next goal for the guild then the other decisions are made with that in mind. Looking at Aeryck's post we have the numbers. How is the best way to help people get the gear they need? I haven't seen any responses from the people in Special Forces or Cocidius yet, but I have no doubt that the leaders of those squads are doing everything they can to figure this out too.

    Thanks for taking the time to chat last night Saj. I do think everyone knows the officers are working on things. And I appreciate the update. Is there any way you can let us know what the requirements are for the classes you have already set? Eventually its all going to end up in some SOP thread, but its nice to see the progress. Do you need help with researching the other four classes (two being reevaluated and two you're still working on) so it can get done quicker? Of the classes that you have requirements for do we have a list of people that already meet these that can get with the people that don't so we can work on getting them up? There's a ton of gear that drops in heroics that people aren't locked into for a week that we could be working on for people who need help. Being able to see a list of people who are close could be a big help. Lastly, I know that we want to cover all the bases, but there really needs to be a middle ground between blazing in blindly and trying to make sure every possible question is answered before we make a move. I hope the officers aren't debating every item to death :D.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sajier
    replied
    Re: Direction

    As Beep said, of the 100 Level 70 Primaries in guild, only 20ish meet the requirements we are working on. There are a 5 or 6 more who are very close and will hopefully be able to meet them in the next couple weeks.

    The issue with just sending 25 people into Gruul's or any of the 25 mans is that without the proper gear/stats and situational awareness even one person not being on their game can lead to a wipe. Let's, for example, take the Primary healers since that is the one I know best. If a primary healer doesn't have the mana regen and mana pool to handle and maintain the constant heals required to overcome the 10-13k DPS that Maulgar throws out, then the chances for success go down before we even get started. Being able to react quickly to changes in the situation (add breaks loose, have to adjust locations due to an AE or maintain spacing due to Gruul's shatter) is essential in these raids, and if someone doesn't react quickly, then we are all at risk.

    This is the reason we are working on base requirements. The goal is to have a clear outline of where people need to be for the effectiness we are going to need. All the officers have been researching this stuff for over a month and a half, and we only have 2 classes left to define which hopefully should be done in the next few days, and 2 classes that are being re-evaluated and then we will have a clear view of where we feel we need to be.

    Just as an example. Below are the priest gear requirements. I asked the priest mains what they felt about these and they helped me adjust them to what we felt was appropriate. In order meet these requirements, a priest needs to have put in a good amount of time in Karazhan, Heroics, trade-skill work and various factioning. They are all achievable and most of the priests are very close to having met them if they don't already.

    Healing Priests
    10k mana unbuffed
    1400 healing unbuffed
    110 mana/5 unbuffed
    5/5 Silent Resolve (healing aggro reduction talent)

    Shadow Priests
    800 shadow damage unbuffed
    3/3 Shadow Affinity (Shadow aggro reduction talent)

    That said, what also is in consideration is what experience is necessary to show the appropriate level of situational awareness to handle the strats and fights we will be throwing at people in the 25 mans. This is still in the works but seems to be very close on most classes as well, and seems to be heavily weighted into the end of Karazhan.

    This is just a small sample of what is being worked on. You will see full details coming out shortly on where we think things need to go and what needs to happen. I am guessing that in the next week you will see the requirements laid out. Im guessing that shortly after that you will see plans for how we will finish out the group and get our first real foothold into Gruul's.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aeryck
    replied
    Re: Direction

    I understand that our guild officers are working on this priority issue so I'm not sure I have much to add at this point. I definitely agree w/ Pistos on the need for positive discussion and information on this subject, but also agree w/ Wintrow in that it's hard to be positive and looking forward without having a clue what the plan is. After last week's cancelled attempt due to lack of numbers and balance I did a quick headcount.

    Number of Lvl 70's as of Friday 7/6/07:

    Druid: 12 - 1 secondary = 11
    Hunter: 15 - 2 secondary = 13
    Mage: 22 - 9 secondary = 13
    Paladin: 17 - 3 secondary = 14
    Priest: 13 - 2 secondary = 11
    Rogue: 19 - 4 secondary = 15
    Shaman: 4 - 1 secondary = 3
    Warlock: 12 - 5 secondary = 7
    Warrior: 17 - 3 secondary = 13

    Total Number of Lvl 70's = 131
    Total Number of Lvl 70 Secondary = 31
    Total Number of Lvl 70 Primary = 100

    It seems that we have the numbers to field a balanced 25 man group, so the main issues appear to be preparation, organization & gear. It sounds like the guild officers are in the process of evaluating these issues, so hopefully we can get an update soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muirc
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Ok, I have a few concerns.

    The suggestion to drag people through is great for gear but it doesn't teach people important aspects of the game. You can't just drag people through and give orders on how to play their class. Haven't we learned from our MC runs? Yes, phat loot for everyone but did everyone learn something from MC. There was a lot of hand holding in there. Sorry to beat this dead dog with a stick but you need people to learn how to play their role/class and react accordingly when things don't go right without being told to do so.

    Why not take the time to share some of the things you have learned about playing your role/class with others. I know we do that a lot here but not all of the guild reads these forums.

    So with that being said, I think we need to take one inexperienced end gamer and pair them with an experienced end gamer of the same class. Sort of like a big brother/sister program to help some people understand their role/class better. Also, maybe reviving the tghealer, tghunter(the few, the proud, the uberly geared...tarenth give me your bow :p) etc...channels to field questions during the raids.

    Again, like Pistos, this is not a knock on anyone. I'm just trying to think out of the box to help us progress. I just don't want Gruul to end up the way BWL did.

    Just my two cents.

    Any thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • orion808
    replied
    Re: Direction

    WoW,,,alot of forum activity happens when I have little time to read it. Expect me to reply to this and others sooner or later.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Originally posted by Sajier View Post
    If people have questions, I am sitting on TS atm, I am more than willing to discuss any concerns people may have. We are doing the best we can to get everything going, but we are trying to make sure everything is done right.
    Can't right now. I'm tutoring my wife's friend in functions for her algebra course. If you're on later I'll find ya though. Its important to me that you and the other officers don't think I'm trying to attack you guys. I know that you're doing a ton. I do think its important to keep the discussion open though so everyone doesn't begin to feel stagnant. And while you guys probably get sick of talking about something in officer forums or officer chat we out here just get bits and pieces of rumor. This is something that's been rumbling in my head for a while now and I just finally got to the point where I felt it was necessary to post it.

    Hopefully she'll get the hang of functions quick and I'll be able to log on :D.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pistos
    replied
    Re: Direction

    Ricca - don't worry. I've never been one to shy away from speaking my mind. I do always try to do it in a positive manner and suggest ideas that might help. Its very easy to say "this sucks" without spending time and effort trying to make something better.

    Beep - I'm not claiming that anyone has KZ on farm. Both Defiant and Illidan do have number of bosses on farm. And for the most part are going to be de-ing the majority of gear. Whatever is finally decided on a raiding group and/or requirements (of which I'm all in favor of), is fine with me. Just trying to spur on the discussion of what else we as a guild can do.

    Saj - I totally respect the amount of preparation that you put into everything you do. This never was meant to knock what you were doing. The alt thing was mentioned and it struck a nerve with me, I hope you don't think I'm being too aggressive in saying that I'm bothered by the idea of it. As far as your leadership style you say that it may be too "fast". But you're one of the leaders for Gruul's so that could be a problem if that's the first time people see it. I don't believe that if Illidan or Defiant has 3-4 "guests" running with them each week it will be like the new people not learning anything. Sure it will slow the raid down because you have to explain again. And maybe there's a wipe or two, but in the end I cannot believe that anyone would think there are more negatives than positives.

    To all of the officers. I know you guys are doing alot to help. Working on requirements is a big, long process. I don't have any doubt in your intention. I'm only suggesting an idea and at the same time trying to get others to give input. Not just officers, though I'm glad you guys are here chatting :D, but everyone. We all have to talk about this. I'm especially interested in hearing what the guys (and gals) from Spec. Forces and Cocidius think.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sajier
    replied
    Re: Direction

    If people have questions, I am sitting on TS atm, I am more than willing to discuss any concerns people may have. We are doing the best we can to get everything going, but we are trying to make sure everything is done right.

    Leave a comment:

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