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  • EndGame Spec Debate

    Originally posted by Sunderland
    Mages
    Frost/18 Arcane: This one is tricky so gotta explain myself. As most mages will be able to tell you there are a pretty much neccecary 18 points you have to put into the arcane talent tree. This is needed for counterspell pulling, and getting mana quickly in the boss fights that take up to 5 min. More arcane is okay, but the main point is Fire specced mages will only cause trouble in MC. This is because fire mages can slap on just as many debuffs as a warlock can just by casting a couple spells. This knocks off the warlock curses (which gimps the DPS of ALL casters 10-20%) and more importantly can knock off the sunder armors that warriors use to hold aggro. In MC mobs are also insanely resistant to fire, so you are doing less damage than a frost mage. People to talk to in more detail about this are Zedd and Adrielle.
    Disagree with this...I am a Fire/Arcane mage and can deal effective damage using just arcane missiles. AS it stands right now, MC and maybe Ony are the only places where there is FR. I am trying to think what debuffs you are talking about. I can cast counterspell but can't think of any other debuffs. Maybe Detect magic, but that is only used to "mark" a target for sheep. You want to expound on this?

  • #2
    Re: Speccing for end game

    the debuffs I am talking about are Ignite, the scorch debuff (that stacks), improved fireball, and the impact debuff. Those are 4 things that take up debuff slots with one of them stacking. In MC this can lead to sunder armors and curses being knocked off.

    -Hold onto the pin, throw the other part

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Speccing for end game

      Originally posted by Altor
      When in FR places, all I do is spam Arcane Missiles. In ZG and others, I use all my spells. Never thought about ignite taking the place of another debuff though. But wouldn't chilled do it as well?

      Yes, chilled would take up one slot of a debuff (as far as I can remember). But, as a fire mage using fire spells, you can take up to FOUR slots. Ouch for locks and warriors and rogues. Especially important are the curses you could potentially knock off from locks though. Curse of Shadows increases the damage done by our mage arcane spells by 10% and reduces enemy resistance to your arcane spells by 65. Same goes for Curse of Elements and mage elemental spells, ... so, ... those curses are more beneficial to us than any DoT's our fire spells would do. So, it's really important to take that into consideration. I'm trying to figure out a way to have a spec that can transcend between raids and farming or PvP, ... I really like my spec, and would think it would be effective in end game just because it is so heavily arcane, and as long as I play it in a smart manner I think it would be effective. However, I'm probably going to respec to the suggested spec at least for a little while to see how it helps out on end game raids. Always good to experiment.


      My spec currently is 31 Arcane/20 Fire with the standard Mage Arcane 18 and down to PoM and Arcane Power. In the fire tree I focus mainly on the left side, ... Ignite, Imp. Fireball, Imp. Scorch, Imp. Fire Blast, and Pyroblast. The fire side is mainly for PvP reasons, ... as far as end game, I've hardly been using it. However--in places like Scholo and Strat, ... Arcane Power+PoM+Pyroblast, ... bosses ain't got nothin' on me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Speccing for end game

        Wow, I am going to duck before we start a druid war aobut some of this. Of course since I am one of the few I guess I can just go in the corner and fight amongst myself right?

        I want the melee crit, no wait the spell crit, no I want o replenish my mana faster than all others, repeat :).

        I won't touch teh comment about me being feral ;)
        Kemotaha

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Speccing for end game

          lol Kemo, its my understanding that you have been told to stay how you are anyway...we need off tanks right now and you are awesome at it.

          Not knocking anyones spec and Lord knows it hurt to respec from affliction, but after only 1 night of running with this build I have noticed that I can do more damage, draw less aggro, and still have great cookies and imp buffs to go around...in a group. Solo-farming I expect to be seriously gimped in, but I like raiding better than farming anyway.

          -Hold onto the pin, throw the other part

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Speccing for end game

            I think I am repeccing, but I am respeccing to more of a tank right now to fill the holes we need. Yes, I have been asked to do so. That is what we all need to do. Put the guild first and do what is asked. I was going to respecc for a while be now It is different from what I was going to do :)

            I will be going more resto at some point, once our holes are filled.
            Kemotaha

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Speccing for end game

              Originally posted by Adrielle
              Yes, chilled would take up one slot of a debuff (as far as I can remember). But, as a fire mage using fire spells, you can take up to FOUR slots. Ouch for locks and warriors and rogues. Especially important are the curses you could potentially knock off from locks though. Curse of Shadows increases the damage done by our mage arcane spells by 10% and reduces enemy resistance to your arcane spells by 65. Same goes for Curse of Elements and mage elemental spells, ... so, ... those curses are more beneficial to us than any DoT's our fire spells would do. So, it's really important to take that into consideration. I'm trying to figure out a way to have a spec that can transcend between raids and farming or PvP, ... I really like my spec, and would think it would be effective in end game just because it is so heavily arcane, and as long as I play it in a smart manner I think it would be effective. However, I'm probably going to respec to the suggested spec at least for a little while to see how it helps out on end game raids. Always good to experiment.


              My spec currently is 31 Arcane/20 Fire with the standard Mage Arcane 18 and down to PoM and Arcane Power. In the fire tree I focus mainly on the left side, ... Ignite, Imp. Fireball, Imp. Scorch, Imp. Fire Blast, and Pyroblast. The fire side is mainly for PvP reasons, ... as far as end game, I've hardly been using it. However--in places like Scholo and Strat, ... Arcane Power+PoM+Pyroblast, ... bosses ain't got nothin' on me.
              Thanks for the info...I didn't know that. I will stick to just arcane missiles in all 40-man raid groups then. I assume it's still ok in places like UBRS/STRAT/etc..

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Speccing for end game

                Originally posted by Sunderland
                These are the general specs that are recommended for endgame, I will list appropriate talents where I can, but where I list a tree I think you guys will get the point since you have all been playing your toons a long time.

                Priests
                Discipline/Holy or Holy/Discipline: With the new patch coming out Holy is actually looking really nice with its portable first aid station, but until then either of these specs are acceptable. I think everyone knows that shadow priests just cant heal for the THOUSANDS of points of damage the tank will be taking in ONE hit.
                As it stands right now, there's isn't a ginormous difference between the healing power of Disc/Holy vs Shadow spec. You have to keep in mind Shadows priests are Shadow/Disc, so they retain,roughly, the same Disc utility as as Holy/Disc priest. In the Holy tree, there is only 2 or so talents that have any kind of bearing on endgame healing. Those two are Spiritual Healing (increases healing by 10% with 5 talent points) and Subtlety (reduces aggro from healing spells by 20% with 5 talent points). You don't need points in Sublety if you both have the pally blessing AND heal smartly. The extra 10% healing from Spiritual healing doesn't make a huge difference, endgame, as I believe that bonus is calculated before +healing gear. A Shadow priest with the right gear will heal nearly just as good as Holy/Disc. I believe Disc/Holy has noticbly more staying power than a Shadow/Disc priest, but this is not an issue I have been able to come to a conclusion to with Shadow priests.

                Personally, I am Disc/Holy, but I wanted to dispell the myths around my Shadow bretheren. They can heal, and chances are if they are good at their class and don't tell you that they are Shadow you probably can't even tell that they are Shadow spec.

                Being Shadow spec doesn't really help the raid (except for Shadow Weaving, which 'locks <3.... and Silence is nice...and actually while Shadow Priests can't AOE, they can DPS really really hard on a single target while maintaining good mana efficiency...and they can pop out of Shadowform to heal...and they can still heal with vampiric embrace), but going Holy/Disc or Disc/Holy completely retards your ability to Farm or BG. Or level, if you still do that.

                Of course, the patch is changing that. So chances are, this post will be obsolete in less than 2 weeks.

                P.S. I am pro Feral Druid and pro Shadow Priest- fight the power!!! Don't let "the man" get you down! :D

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Speccing for end game

                  RE: priest spec for end game.
                  1. Full disc/holy priests are healing specialists. The extra talent points in holy give them maximum mana efficiency for healing. This is important for high level bosses and long fights where running out of mana is "normal". Being able to conserve mana and get out an extra heal or two or three can make the difference between wiping or winning.
                  2. Raid/end-game specialization - Priests are top notch healers and can do serious damage if shadow specced. BUT...and it's a big "but"...the role of priests in raids is not DPS. Their job is to keep the tank(s) alive.

                  I have both a priest and a tank. I know what a priest can do. As a main tank warrior, I am not comfortable relying on shadow priests for healing at end game for boss fights. Don't get me wrong, I love shadow priests...but not for main healing for PVE end-game raiding.

                  Let me draw a warrior analogy...I can spec a 31/5/15 warrior who is a mortal strike-capable warrior with enough in protection to do some tanking. For end game raids, you need 31+ protection talent points if you want to MT..at least until you are epic-geared.
                  Last edited by beep; 03-16-2006, 04:45 PM.
                  Beep


                  Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Speccing for end game

                    Originally posted by beep
                    stuff
                    I'm not saying that Disc/Holy priests aren't better healers than Shadow. There's just really not a huge difference between the two, if geared properly. I also forgot to say Shadow priests don't usually DPS in raids either, I didn't mean to imply that they do. With the added utitily of Shadow weaving (can be spammed on to a boss with rank 1 SW:P) and Silence, they do bring a couple things to the table, and still being able to heal.

                    If you ever ask a Shadow priest to respec to Holy/Disc from, you are asking them to get rid of their ability to solo effeciently and to get rid of their PvP survivability. I personally would see it as selfish for someone to ever ask that of a priest, but I am extremely biased. For example, I love prot specced warriors <3, and I hope that every warrior I ever see in a dungeon raid is one, because it makes things sooo much easier, but honestly it's hard for me to tell one warrior apart from another. As long as the war that is trying to tank has a shield equipped, and has a brain, I am satisfied. I see Shadow priests the same way- as long as they are healing and aren't stupid....*shrug*

                    I too would rather have a Holy/Disc priest healing me than a Shadow, but who wouldn't? If you are shadow, you just have to actually use your brain in Raids to manage your agro and mana pool. As it stands right now, with the number of healers in a raid that's "reccomended", and with proper talents, you just coast through battles with little brain activity. Sure, sometimes you make mistakes. People will die because of your mistakes, sometimes the raid will wipe. That's part of the game, you just have to recognize what you did wrong and fix it for the next battle. It's like that as a Healbot OR a Facemelter. For Priests, it really does just come down to gear. Spec doesn't make as much as a difference as most people believe.

                    If a Raid has ALL shadow priests, I might be worried. But, that is rare.

                    Patch time, it all changes, etc.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Speccing for end game

                      Originally posted by Cloud34

                      If you ever ask a Shadow priest to respec to Holy/Disc from, you are asking them to get rid of their ability to solo effeciently and to get rid of their PvP survivability.
                      It's the same for Warriors who go protection spec...what's your point?

                      I personally would see it as selfish for someone to ever ask that of a priest, but I am extremely biased. For example, I love prot specced warriors <3, and I hope that every warrior I ever see in a dungeon raid is one, because it makes things sooo much easier, but honestly it's hard for me to tell one warrior apart from another.
                      If you can't see the difference, then I won't convince you. Believe me...there is a huge difference. The really good healers I know can tell a difference in the healing demands.

                      I too would rather have a Holy/Disc priest healing me than a Shadow, but who wouldn't?
                      That's my point.
                      Spec doesn't make as much as a difference as most people believe.
                      This isn't about style. On a side by side comparison, a healing focused priest can heal 20-25% more per spell than a Shadow priest.

                      Shadow is absolutely the best spec for leveling. Shadow is great for a PVP-oriented player who wants to melt faces. Priests who are serious about taking care of their buddies are disc/holy specced healers.
                      Beep


                      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Speccing for end game

                        Originally posted by beep
                        It's the same for Warriors who go protection spec...what's your point?
                        Read my post again and maybe you'll see my point.

                        If you can't see the difference, then I won't convince you. Believe me...there is a huge difference. The really good healers I know can tell a difference in the healing demands.
                        Once again, let me reiterate- there is a difference in healing between Healbot/Shadow specs. I'm not saying there isn't. You're either not reading what I am posting, or your reading too far in to my words.


                        That's my point.
                        So a priest should respec to holy just to make you feel comfortable?

                        This isn't about style. On a side by side comparison, a healing focused priest can heal 20-25% more per spell than a Shadow priest.
                        The evidence you present to support your claim is overwhelming. In the end, if they were to have optimal healing gear, the Holy/Disc priest would outheal the Shadow priest, of course. But I'd really like to know upon what evidence, even mathematical, gives you enough confidence to state "20-25%" more healing per spell. In end game healing, Flash Heal is the spell of choice. And you have to keep in mind it only retains 43% of the bonus from +healing gear because of it's 1.5 second casting time. You know, A holy Disc priest COULD heal 20-25% more per spell... if he had better healing gear than a Shadow priest. Tier 2 versus all greens, who would win? If they have similair gear, the talent difference only becomes obviously apparent in long battles. If you have a Shadow priest in your Raid healing, it's not the end of the world.


                        Shadow is absolutely the best spec for leveling. Shadow is great for a PVP-oriented player who wants to melt faces. Priests who are serious about taking care of their buddies are disc/holy specced healers.
                        You make it sound like the only "right" way to play the game as a priest with other people is as a Healbot.

                        I...
                        [ ] Strongly Agree
                        [ ] Agree
                        [ ] Slightly Agree
                        [ ] Slightly Disagree
                        [ ] Disagree
                        [X] Strongly Disagree

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Speccing for end game

                          Have fun playing your Shadow Priest, Golerth. I wish you the best.
                          Beep


                          Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Speccing for end game

                            Originally posted by beep
                            Have fun playing your Shadow Priest, Golerth. I wish you the best.
                            I play a Disc/Holy priest.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Speccing for end game

                              Originally posted by Cloud34
                              I play a Disc/Holy priest.
                              Even better.:)
                              Beep


                              Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

                              Comment

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