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Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

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  • Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

    I did a quick scroll through (zomg stickies) and didn't really find a great paladin thread like the warrior chat one. I'm gonna turn this into a little debate/discussion thread on playing a paladin in case you have a paladin, are leveling one, or are curious as to why we're always such noobs.

    At any rate, after reading this thread, you will NOT think that playing a paladin is playing the game on "easy" mode.

    I'm making this thread because I have a lot of experience endgame as a paladin with many guilds, and I've been fortunate enough to run with most of the uber guilds on Thunderhorn to see how they do things. As did beep, I will begin with a breakdown of gear requirements.

    1.) Endgame Gearing

    I like to think of myself as a versadin. I often complain about bagspace because I generally have to carry four sets of armor (FR, PvP, Healing, Tanking). A while back I took a look at all my +int, +heal and what not and sold a lot of my cloth armor in favor of a larger mana pool. So I'll break this into four parts.

    a.) Fire Resist - Paladins will need about 200 fire resist for the fire bosses of MC, which basically means Rag. Because we carry a nifty +60 aura in our pocket, all we have to do is get up to about 140. Higher is better, but a lot is sacrificed and we don't need to crank Dark Iron gear for Rag so much. I still carry four pieces of Thorium Armor with some intellect bonuses on it. This is great general purpose resistance gear and I HIGHLY reccommend purchasing a few pieces, at least ones that you can put a +int on. MC is fire dmg, AQ is nature dmg, Naxxramas will likely be shadow, and let's not forget that we have Northrend and Karazhan cooking up (frost and arcane).

    Further, frost and arcane damage seem to have a better resistance %/point than fire, so with only about 85 arcane resist I am resisting 80-90% of what Shazz throws at me.

    Back to the point. The Royal Seal of Eldre'thalas is crucial. +10 FR and +22 healing is critical. If you're an engineer, invest in a Fire Reflector. If not, Ward of the Elements is part of your Onyxia key chain and also useful.

    I find myself using my Elder Magus Pendant for all FR fights except Vael, where I use my Drakefire Amulet. And my Wildfire Cloak has a +7 FR on it, but I find the +5 all resist on my Hide of the Wild is a better general purpose cloak (and I don't wanna lose +42 healing).

    Grind rep with Argent Dawn. +5fr to shoulder is also helpful.

    2.) PvP/Damage gear - Paladins CAN do a lot of burst damage if they're geared for it. We're EXACTLY like warriors when it comes to attack power rating: Level * 3 + Strength * 2 - 20. So more strength = more damage. More agility = more crits, and if you have Vengeance, more crits = more time with the bonus damage buff. However, you sacrifice your mana pool for this, and as a result you find yourself riding on Seal of Command, which is mana expensive, and then on Seal of Righteousness, which doesn't boost damage enough. For PvP I recommend a pair of Death Grips for immune disarm as well as +22 strength. Human Paladins have sword and mace specialization. Stay the hell away from an Arcanite Reaper. Save your money and get an Arcanite Champion with a crusader. You don't get the Axe Spec talent warriors have, so you can't boost your crit chances an extra 5% like they can. Go for the attack power over time and scale that with Seal of the Crusader for close onto 2000 AP.

    3.) Tanking - Yes, paladins can tank. I find myself tanking in endgame more often than is usual, but anyone who has played with me knows I can hold aggro. Righteous Fury is the key, so you need to be landing holy damage. As a result, post 1.10 NOTHING beats a Deathbone Set for that +mana/5 sec bonus. Wowow. I was so happy to see that.

    Like warriors, pallytanks wany a lot of +defense. Deathbone proffers a TON of +defense, and a good Quel'Serrar is handy, but honestly, Bloodlord's Defender is a better pallytanking sword. You won't be healing yourself while tanking, and you won't be using seal of light as much as you'd like, so build +stamina. Your holy damage spells will take care of threat generation, just remember that you have no real snap aggro. Intellect is important at first, but you'll blow your mana with consecrate bombs. A Skullflame Shield is a good friend, but a Zulian Defender with a spilke will help with aggro generation without worrying about that nice sheepbreaking AOE proc.

    Last, for all tanks I recommend the Heroism trinket from the Warlords deck. ZOMG proctastic!

    4.) Healing - This is a long discussion. I've changed the way I heal a few times. I was a poor healer, then I became a good healer. Now I'm a phenomenal healer when I'm not tanking.

    I will assume a healing paladin has at least enough points into holy to get Illumination, which gives you a 100% of recovering the base mana cost of a healing spell when that spell crits. After a lot of discussions regarding spirit regen, heal quantity, mana pools, etc. with some other paladins, I've found the best way to build gear is thusly:

    +heal > +mana regen > +spell critical > +int > +sta > +spi

    Now, remember the bonus coefficient is the +heal * cast time of spell / 3.5. So your Flash of Light only gets 42% of the +heal that you have. HOWEVER, this coefficient does not break down with the base healing value of the spell. As a result, with enough +heal gear you can crank a Rank 1 Flash of Light that does more than most paladins' Rank 6s, and you'll save more mana than any other way.

    Second, since mana regen doesn't get nerfed while casting, you will want to build as much of that as possible. Peacekeeper gear is some of the best paladin gear in the game.

    Many paladins build cloth gear. I refuse to. I will wear some good mail and leather items, but I honestly don't think that cloth gear is properly geared for the way a paladin needs to heal. Since pallies generate virtually no aggro from healing, armor isn't important. It's just that cloth gears itself more towards casters with healing spells that can get full bonus benefits. Zandalar friendly and honored pieces are good for healing, as is of course Lawbringer. As far as weapons go, in MC the best are Azuresong Mageblade > Aurastone Hammer > Finkle's Lava Dredger. However, for all of these weapons you'll be rolling against at least two other classes.

    As far as enchantments go, I would definitely go with +healing on everything. +heal to bracers, to weapon, to gloves. ZG enchants to head and legs. ZG exalted to shoulders. But those are expensive, so save them for epic gear.

    Healing as a paladin is difficult, and you don't find many paladins that use lower rank healing spells. Druids at least can benefit from shorter cast times from lower rank spells. Priests and druids have heal over times that allow them to heal two targets at once. As pallies we have to spam flash of lights with a holy light thrown in. Enough +critspell gear and Illumination guarantees me to be the last healer to run out of mana (especially with close onto 6700 mana raid buffed), so I can extend this further by spamming Rank 4 Flash of Lights for 480 health and spend only 70 mana per heal. Other paladins are spending 115 mana for the same amount of health with their +int gear on. Let's also not forget what Divine Favor + ZHC + Holy Light 9 can do in a omgpwn situation. Aggro free 5k+ heal ftw!

    Since healing is such a big discussion, I'm gonna end this post and finish at a later date. But I'm gonna end with my talent spec, which I'll begin the next discussion with and then finalize my lecturing with more talk about how exactly to heal well without overhealing.

    At any rate, my spec:

    Holy/Protection/Retribution

    30/0/21

  • #2
    Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

    I'm leveling a pally on another server (currently at 17 and mostly parked while I play other classes). I'd love to hear more about the long slow climb.

    One of my mates posted this guide including some instruction on how to use Judgements, something that wasn't obvious to me when I started playing that class.

    http://matureasskickers.net/wbb2/thr...threadid=11881
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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    • #3
      Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

      Ah yes, judgements! I will get around to that. Right now I want to talk a bit about my spec, and why I think it's useful.

      As I said, I'm Holy/Protection/Retribution 30/0/21. Here's a detailed breakdown:

      HOLY

      Divine Strength 5/5: 5% increase to strength = 5% increase to attack power.

      Divine Intellect 5/5: 5% increase to intellect = 5% larger mana pool. This is a must for all endgame pallies.

      I skip the 2nd tier here.

      Healing Light 3/3: 12% bonus to healing spells. Again, no brainer for an endgame pally.

      Consecration 1/1: For uberleetz AOEz. No seriously, Consecration is useful in so many endgame situations, one of them being aggro generation for aoe type fights, like the bats in ZG. Also, consecration builds a wonderful amount of hate over time while tanking. Consecrating allows the rest of the raid to get in on a mob sooner.

      Improved Lay on Hands 2/2: Reduces cooldown of LOH by 20 minutes and gives the target of LOH a 30% armor increase for 2 minutes. This is almost mandatory. LOH is the greatest gift a paladin has. This can save yourself while soloing (giving pallies yet another life), but is phenomenal while raiding. If the healers are OOM and the MT is in the &^%$ then LOH not only saves him even if you have literally 2 mana, it also increases his armor by like 2000 or more.

      Unyielding Faith: 2/2: Resist fear and disorient effects by 10%. This is one of two talents that I took for PvP that actually ended up being useful in raiding. Ony, Mags, Nefarian. This is a must have. You can't heal while feared, and this ends up being useful more often than you know it.

      Improved Blessing of Wisdom 1/2: Only one point because I needed an extra point and didn't want to go 31 points in holy. This increases my blessing of wisdom mana regen by 10%. That equates to 33 mana per 5 seconds. Not bad overall, and it's a useful placeholder in 20 man raids for when none of the other pallies have improved wisdom.

      Illumination 5/5: Simply put, this is the best talent in the game for healing. This gives me a 100% chance to recover the base mana cost of a healing spell upon a critical spellcast. This extends my mana pool beyond that of most priests and druids, and changes how a paladin needs to build gear. This talent is a MUST HAVE for any endgame paladin. Simply put, this one talent changes raids.

      Divine Favor 1/1: When activated, gives a 100% chance of your next healing spell to be a critical cast. For 60 mana, I can cast a guaranteed 3.4k heal holy light on the main tank ever 2 minutes. When I get my ZHC, I'm going to link these cooldowns. But this is one of those really, really useful things while raiding, and again, if the MH or MT is going down, you can pop this off and crank a crit holy light and change the course of the raid in a mere 2.5 seconds.

      PROTECTION

      None

      RETRIBUTION

      Improved Blessing of Might 5/5: Gives me a 20% increase to the attack power granted by BoM. And thanks to Manny, I have rank 7 BoM so I can give an additional 222 attack power. That equates to... almost 16 DPS increase right off the bat. So yeah.

      Deflection 5/5: Increases my chance to parry by 5%. More parries = less damage taken while meleeing.

      Conviction 5/5: Increases my chance to crit with melee attacks by 5%. Since I am of the opinion that Seal of Command is bugged in our favor, and my 2h crits are 800+, this really, really helps the DPS.

      Seal of Command 1/1: Seal of Luck. This CAN increase my DPS, or it can blow my mana. However, with the new and improved judgement of command, this is pretty useful. When you judge command, you basically do twice the damage if the target is stunned in some manner. That can crit for 800 damage on a regular basis. NOW, this is why I think SoC is bugged. SoC is a holy damage spell that does 70% of your melee attack in holy damage sometimes. It's a spell, but it can be blocked, dodged, parried and resisted. So basically, it seems to proc like a melee attack, which why Conviction 5/5 is useful. I am witnessing the same crit rates with SoC as my standard melee, so I think it's really first processed as melee then converted a posteriori as holy damage.

      Pursuit of Justice 2/2: This is the 2nd PvP oriented talent that comes in handy. This increases my running and mounted speed by 8% (so 108% while running, 216% while mounted). Most mobs are exactly 8% faster than you. So I've kited most of razorgore's room by consecrate bombing after I caught serious healing aggro. It was an accident, but it was pretty useful nonetheless!

      Eye for an Eye 2/2: PvP oriented, marginally useful endgame. Whenever crit by a spell, I do 30% of that damage back to the spellcaster in holy damage. That means if a mage crit pyroblasts me, he drops a quarter of his health. That makes me happy. I've honestly never really noticed it proc in raiding or anything. I suppose it does, but clearly it's not a gamebreaker.

      Sanctity Aura 1/1: This is for farming and soloing. This increases holy damage done by 10%. See my aura thread.

      Ok fingers hurt, more on judgments later!

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      • #4
        Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

        Well, At least Arkamis is making this easy on me. I've been meaning to get around to writing a huge pally spiel, but alas, i never have the time.

        <3 arkamis
        _________________



        I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

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        • #5
          Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

          I need more bags! I am like you and carry three sets of armor, Fire Resist, Tanking and Healing. I also have a cloth set getting dusty in the bank. I think that the key for me is to stick with the plate armor and +heal/+stats gear. I have found that I survive longer and can help to the very last. We need to get our pallys over to DM and farm for those Librams that we can equipe in our ranged slots. I have seen a few that do mana regen and reduce mana costs for things such as our cleanse spell. Which considering that I went OOM once last night in MC doing nothing but cleanse and judgement of light!


          Silchar (70 Retribution Paladin)
          Lightshow (70 Holy Priest)
          Wetstone (70 Marksman Hunter)

          "Never forget-the higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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          • #6
            Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

            Do you guys think that it is worth my effort to do the "Soulforge" quests? We are reaching a critical mass and are taking down bosses at a rate that will give us the next tier armor very soon. What do you think?


            Silchar (70 Retribution Paladin)
            Lightshow (70 Holy Priest)
            Wetstone (70 Marksman Hunter)

            "Never forget-the higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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            • #7
              Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

              I've been working on Soulforge strictly as a way to get some challenge and fun out of the game that doesn't involve me standing in the back of a 40 man raid, mashing my Holy light button.

              Don't put the time or effort into it if you don't want to... the Set is only moderately better than Lightforge, (and only a teeny bit worse than Lawbringer).. so if you've got the time and the G's. go for it. The quest's story is getting rather interesting... and you can make some good friends while finding the group you'll need for the 45 minute baron run. :)
              _________________



              I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                Also (This'll teach me for reading from the bottom up.. )
                As far as i can tell, there are three Relic Librams for pallies. two of them are mana reducers, the other is an aura booster. (+55 to Devo, i believe).
                Strangely enough, only one of the drops in Dire Maul. The other one is a drop off a boss in AQ, i think, and the third one drops somewhere... else... I can't remember. but we should definately track those badboys down.
                _________________



                I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                  Alright, since I'm coming into work four hours early into a &^$%storm and don't want to punch in, here's a quick treatise on Seals and Judgements (even though it's REALLY spelled JUDGMENT). I'm only gonna discuss the highest rank spells

                  Seal of the Crusader: Boosts attack speed by 40% and attack power by 306. However, it reduces your total damage dealt. In the end, using this boosts your DPS by about 12-20, depending on the weapon. It's not very popular, but it can be a great tool if you have a proc per hit (as opposed to proc per minute) enchant on your weapon (like fiery).

                  Judgement of the Crusader: Increases holy damage done by up to 140. This is a scaled damage coefficient, so it scales with casting time, etc. Since the only cast-time holy spells are from priests, they actually get the best damage coefficients out of it. Nonetheless, it's a good judgement to increase overall DPS when used on undead mobs or when used with Command/Righteousness.

                  Seal of Righteousness: Adds holy damage to every attack. The damage done scales with the speed of the weapon. I am not at the moment certain whether or not that's linear, I'd have to do an experiment (which I will post later). All I know is that with my Quel'Serrar, SoR adds 32 damage to every swing, and QS is a 2.00 second weapon. So this, unbuffed [holy tree] adds 16 base DPS. Not bad at all, especially for tanking. At 120 mana per cast, it's a hell of a deal.

                  Judgment of Righteousness: Instantly does 162-178 holy damage. This benefits from +dmg gear, but with only about a 9% coefficient, if that. Useful for tanking, especially with JotC on.

                  Seal of Light: Chance on hit of healing the paladin for 94. Does not scale with +heal gear.

                  Judgement of Light: While on a mob, has a high chance on hit to heal anyone who does melee/wand/autoshot damage on that mob for 61. AMAZINGLY USEFUL ON BOSSES. I wrote an addon to alert when I judge this on a mob. SoL + JoL + Heroism Trinket + Crusader + Skullflame Shield = Undying Paladin

                  Seal of Wisdom: Chance on hit of restoring 90 mana for the paladin.

                  Judgement of Wisdom: While on a mob, has a high chance on hit to restore 59 mana to anyone who does wand/autoshot/melee damage to that mob. AMAZINGLY USEFUL ON BOSSES. I wrote an addon to alert when I judge this on a mob as well.

                  Seal of Justice: Chance on hit of stunning the target for 1 second. Awesome for PvP, awesome for those tricky mobs in ZG that tend to heal themselves or fear you. However, it's proc rate leaves something to be desired. Better with faster weapons.

                  Judgement of Justice: Prevents the mob from fleeing in fear. Doesn't work in PvP. If only...

                  Seal of Command: Grants a chance on hit of adding 70% of the paladin's attack in holy damage. The most popular seal for pallies, and can be the best DPS booster. In my experience the way this is processed is bugged, and I see little damage mitigation. This is best for use with 2h weapons, however you can go for long periods without seeing a proc. Not the best for tanking, since it costs 210 mana.

                  Judgement of Command: When judged, it's nearly identical to JoR, unless the target is in some way stunned. Then it does double the normal damage. I've judged command for 900 damage crits, without JotC or Sanctity aura running. This doesn't scale with your weapon, and you get a small bonus coefficient from +dmg gear.

                  That's about it. I gotta get to work now. I'll post some good seal/judgement combinations to use for different roles later.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                    cough kings cough

                    zomg theres a hunter in the paladin changing room... call security
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                    . . . .

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                    • #11
                      Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                      All about ze healing:

                      Luna has been making fun of me a lot about how I always talk about using lower rank spells for healing. But the fact of the matter is it really helps! Here's my reasoning.

                      I push about +260 heal with my full healing gear. With Blessing of Light on a target, my average Rank 6 Flash of Light does 610 health for 140 mana. However, while the +heal gets cut due to the bonus coefficient, this is due to casting time not the total mana cost of the spell. So my Rank 3 flash of light gets the same +heal as my rank 6.

                      My rank 3 Flash of Light does about 450 health average, for only 70 mana.

                      Thus, in a raid if we have a single fight like Magmadar where the majority of the healing goes to the main tank, since we have so much healing I only need to do small heals. So I spam rank 3 FoLs instead of rank 6. Basically a rank 6 costs double the mana but doesn't do double the heal. The higher the rank, the more mana inefficient the spell.

                      Further, my mana regen with Blessing of Wisdom is about 60 mana/5 seconds. This doesn't get axed while casting, and in 5 seconds I basically cast 3 flash of lights. So 3 rank 3 FoLs costs me 210 mana but I regen 60 (not counting spirit regen). So I'm really only spending 150 mana or so to land a lot of healing on the tank.

                      For spot healing, it's really sensible to use rank 6 FoLs because the total healing done will be sufficient to cover what's necessary with only 1 heal. however, i can cast a rank 5 holy light for only 235 mana and do 1000+ health. This is a 2.5 second cast, but I get more total health for less mana and less cast time than 2 rank 6 FoLs.

                      In the end, I have 9 action buttons dedicated to healing spells. It's a lot, but the mana cost is worthwhile.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                        Of Judgement of Crusader:

                        Holy wrath is that paladin's only cast time holy spell to my knowledge. So you DO have one...its only useful on demons and undead.

                        Of Judgement of Light:

                        The healing from this judgement is melee only so you won't see any health coming back from shooting or wanding like you would with judgement of wisdom.


                        On +healing and you:

                        All +damage/healing is based off a 3.5 second cast and uses modifiers if the spell has any secondary affects (IE: frostbolt's chill). To calculate how much of a benefit a spell would get you use the simple formula of:
                        +Damage/Healing * (untalented cast time/3.5)

                        Examples:
                        +100 D/M
                        Holy wrath gets +58 damage (100 * (2/3.5))
                        Flash of Light gets +43 healing (100 * (1.5/3.5))
                        Holy Light gets +72 healing (100 * (2.5/3.5))

                        Instant spells have their own +D/H modifier and varies from spell to spell depending on what it does.
                        My sanity is not in question...
                        It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                        Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                          i have to agree with ark on tha lower lvl healing, ill use tha same incounter, when beep is the only one gettin massive damage/healing i will use my flash heal 2 ranks lower than my max, it cuts down on overhealing, and at the raite i use / regen mana, i can cast like that nonstop for a very long time
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                          . . . .

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                          • #14
                            Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                            u might wanna change the name of this thread.. cause if u look at the T3 stuff.... i dont see any strength .... only plus healing and INT.... looks like bliz set ur fate for yall, be my healing b**** JK =D
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                            . . . .

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                            • #15
                              Re: Paladin Chat, Because really we all want to be like the warriors

                              If you really want to get complex, you could change up using flash heal for using normal heal. Because flash heal has a 1.5 second cast it gets a significantly less benefit from +healing items than heal's 3 second untalented cast.

                              Flash heal: 43%
                              Heal/Greater Heal: 86%

                              That means with the talents bringing it down to 2.5 seconds you may see better results using a heal rotation (not even a greater heal) for more 'bang for your buck'. Kind've a toss up between gheal 1 and heal 4 though. Personally I use gheal for 5 maning because its so mana efficient.
                              My sanity is not in question...
                              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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