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So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

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  • So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

    After the treasure trove of tanking information that Beep dredged up, I figured I'd give you guys a brief idea of Pally tanking, presented in a fun and exciting numbered list with explanations!

    1.Paladins aren't warriors.
    - I know, it's a surprise. You can generally tell the difference between us because our armor is shinier, and we tend to do more strange things that involve yellow flashes of light. So very much Yellow. Other differences you might see are things such as Mana Bars, and a constant stream of begging in your party chat asking you to please... please wait a few seconds before you start attacking. (more on that in a moment)

    2.Taunt? What?
    - Paladins, as a general rule, can't Taunt. At least, not in the same was as Warriors. A warriors taunt is a simple mechanic. You target a mob, you push a button, and voila! You have Aggro for something like 6 seconds. Because Blizzard loves paladins so much, they decided to add an extra button into our Taunt Process. Paladins have a spell called Righteous Defense. It's a great spell for a class that was designed to be the protectors of all things squishy. To use it, We have to find the mob we want to taunt, and then cast Righteous Defense On the mobs target. The upside to our taunt is that, unless we've been really dumb, if a mage pulls aggro right away on a mob, we have mana to pull it back to us. In fact, when we cast righteous defens on somebody, we can pull up to Three mobs back to us.

    Except sometimes, that's a bad thing... A paladin that's trying to save a priest that's pulled aggro can sometimes get a bit more than he bargained for. I used RD on a priest once... not realizing that he'd pulled Aggro off of me, AND the Offtank Simultaneously. (He'd decided that I needed a 5000 Crit heal at the beginning of a fight.) I wouldn't have lasted very long when both mobs came flying at me, if it hadn't been for the glorious fact that RD only aggroes mobs to me *tenuously* for about 3 Seconds... That's about enough time to hit them and make them forget about the Mage that's starting to power up a nuke. If the Mage is to fast, or a heal comes to early, my Snap aggro has just been snapped. Which brings me to my next point...

    3. hy·brid(hī'brĭd) n.- Something of mixed origin or composition.
    - As you all know, Paladins were not put into the game to tank. I tend to think about this like soap... Some soaps can clean dirt, and some can clean grease, and some can clean bloodstains from carpets. Some soaps can do all three!

    Just not as easily as the Specialized soaps.

    Paladins were given the ability to Heal, tank, and (in theory) DPS. We can do all three really well... if we have the gear for it. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a tankadin that can heal with the best of them... while tanking. This is because Paladins have to find some way to jam as much Defense/Dodge/and +spell Damage, Intellect, Stamina and Mana Regen into our 17 gear slots as we can. While it is possible, it's hard for us to get gear that will let us hold aggro while surviving the hits we're taking. Blizz is getting better at the gear aspect of Pally tanking, but you have to be careful, cause if you divert healing from a pally tank for too long, we might not make it.

    4. BLUE RAGE!
    - Paladin tanks need heals for two reasons. One of them is entirely obvious... when we get hit, we lose health. we hit zero, we die... you die. everybody dies, Everyone is sad.
    The other reason is a nifty little spell called Spiritual Attunement... which essentially restores our mana while you're healing us. We get a sizeable chunk of mana back based on the amount that we're healed, which is good, because, once again, due to the way we have to spread stats over more than just stamina and defence, we don't always have a huge amount of Mana. And besides the occassional Righteous Defense, Pally Aggro comes from our spells. Our seals and judgements (which we use to constantly stack aggro) cost a fair bit of mana, considering how often we need to use them.

    Now, I hear you all saying how you've seen me with my 9000 some mana, and you're all saying that that seems to be a fair amount. But let's not forget where the vast majority of Paladin Aggro comes from...

    5. CONSECRATE!
    - 8 seconds of holy Aggro in a spiffy little circle around the Pally. Yet another upside to paladin tanks, this little ditty can pull hold aggro on pretty much anything that runs into it...

    And stays there for at least 4 seconds.

    And you don't have to worry about me being overwhelmed by trying to keep aggro on 5 mobs, because Consecrate is a fire and forget Aggro Gain.. Fire it, and forget it took almost no skill to keep 5 mobs beating you.


    Depending on the gear your Pally tank has, and whether he's got a fair bit of +spell damage, Consecrate can do anywhere from around 600 damage over 8 seconds to over 1500 damage over 8 seconds. With our Aggro buff on, (fully buffed Righteous Fury gives us 95% Aggro increase from Holy Damage done by us.) So a mob standing in our consecrate tends to get really pissed off with us really quickly. But still... just because you see a consecrate hit the floor at the beginning of a fight, doesn't mean that the Paladin has aggro. It takes a few seconds. Think of each second the consecrate ticks as a sunder. Don't go in till the Consecrate has been on the ground for 3 or 4 seconds. (and even then, be gentle.) Paladin tanking is a slow build up. But once we have Aggro, it usually takes an Aggro wipe to lose it. Which leads to an interesting pointer for priests.

    6.Don't tell a pally tank to bubble.
    -First of all, if you have to tell us that, chances are we're already dead. Secondly, if we do bubble, You die... unless there's another tank to pick up all the mobs that we've been tanking. All three of our Invincible buttons are complete Aggro Wipes. Even if we use Blessing of Protection (8 seconds of invulnerability to physical damage) on ourselves, even casting mobs will stop working at trying to kill us to shoot the priest... even though they're globs of magic go right through that paticular bubble.


    That's about all of the helpful pointers i can think of. If any other Pallys wanna throw your two cents in, now's the time.
    _________________



    I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

  • #2
    Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

    Warrior's Intervene ability has the same limitation that Righteous Defense has, we have to use it on the mob's target, not the mob. There's a macro to eliminate that extra key press you're talking about.
    /cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget] Righteous Defense
    If your target is a "helpful" target (a group/raid member), it will use Righteous Defense on them, if your target is a mob, it will Righteous Defense on the mob's target (should be the group/raid member you want to "taunt" off of). And it accomplishes that without having to change your target.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

      I've actually tried that Macro, and it didn't seem to work for me. I'll give it another stab though.

      The button press wasn't really a big deal, just outlining the difference between our respective Taunts.
      _________________



      I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

        UPDATE!

        I realized some things that i missed.

        Stuns!
        - Do you have them? Use them. Unlike Warriors, Paladins don't need to be hit to generate rage... in fact, we really like NOT getting hit.

        Buffs!
        -Stop asking for kings. If you've got a paladin tanking, you're better off with Salv. I promise.

        I'll add more as i think about it.
        _________________



        I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

          If you have a pally tank NO CRAZY MAGES!!! This means YOU Amalie!

          |TG-Defiant| - It's you and me against the world. We attack at dawn.

          You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

            Originally posted by Iliana View Post
            If you have a pally tank NO CRAZY MAGES!!! This means YOU Amalie!
            There is no such thing as a NON-crazy mage. Have you ever ran something with Delg's alt (Hadad)? He gets on that toon and forgets that his main is a tank!
            Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
            Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
            ...and other distractions of various levels.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

              Originally posted by Pistos View Post
              There is no such thing as a NON-crazy mage. Have you ever ran something with Delg's alt (Hadad)? He gets on that toon and forgets that his main is a tank!
              Secretly that's his way of getting revenge on us.

              |TG-Defiant| - It's you and me against the world. We attack at dawn.

              You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                Originally posted by Iliana View Post
                If you have a pally tank NO CRAZY MAGES!!! This means YOU Amalie!
                Honestly? As a mage, i find i can nuke just as hard with a paladin as a warrior...provided the Paladin gets the time to build up their holy hate. And nothing beats Circle of Hate for holding aggro in AoE Situations.

                In fact, a good way to keep your aggro under control with a paladin tank relies on this hate generation on the other mobs. While most of my bolts will be heading towards the primary target, if i find myself a little too close to the tank on aggro, i'll often switch to the side, and toss a frostbolt at an off target, or use Cone of Cold for some AoE. Because Consecrate is just sitting there building up significant aggro, a lone frostbolt won't pull aggro, and it will give the tank a few seconds to rebuild a buffer between you and him. This maintains your DPS, while keeping aggro in check, and, your occasional off bolts, combined with the paladin's consecrate damage, makes each successive mob have less and less health when you switch to it..meaning the fight just gets easier and easier...something helpful when mana pools start dropping.

                However, you have to be very careful, and very aware of timing and the tank and your respective aggro for this. If you pull aggro because you were hitting other targets, it's often worse than just pulling aggro on the main target. So make sure you've some experience with your pally tank before you try it.

                Other tips for helping pally tanks? (as a mage)

                Corner pull with poly and consecrate. Your sheep stays far away, you dash around a corner, they follow you, and find themselves suddenly angry at the yellow glowing metal man. When sheep pops? it comes running around the corner, and finds itself in the same trap. Great way to pull ranged enemies. Hunters and locks can easily adapt this for their own pulls...Corner pulls in general work amazingly well with Paladins.

                Frost nova + consecrate is similarly a great tool, helpful for holding them in consecrate to get aggro, when they might otherwise be scattering in the first seconds of a pull. If you pull aggro, get in that yellow patch, nova, and step away a bit (don't go flying away..nova might resist or break early..just far enough that you won't be getting hit, but are still in consecrate). Oftentimes, the few ticks of consecrate will seriously help the tank get it back again...just be careful not to pull again.

                Mages also Decurse...Curses being the only one of the 4 main debuff types (curse, poison, magic, disease) that paladins cannot cleanse off themselves.

                And in physical only fights? Amplify increases healing done to our pally buddy, which increases the mana returned...which equals more hate! win-win!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                  Actually the workings of Salv are a little tricky to just say "Everyone gets it no questions asked". Salv is 30% less threat from all attacks including attacks that generate negitive threat (disengage and feint). For hunters this puts us in a particular bind because if we use misdirection we'll give the paladin 30% less threat and if we try to disengage from an aggroed mob our disengage will be 30% less effective.

                  Alternatively if you give a hunter might or kings they will be able to do more damage thereby making their misdirection sequence a lot more powerful. If they get aggro then they can still feign death or disengage to drop threat and still leave the paladin with the higher threat level from misdirection.
                  My sanity is not in question...
                  It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                  Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                    Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                    Actually the workings of Salv are a little tricky to just say "Everyone gets it no questions asked". Salv is 30% less threat from all attacks including attacks that generate negitive threat (disengage and feint). For hunters this puts us in a particular bind because if we use misdirection we'll give the paladin 30% less threat and if we try to disengage from an aggroed mob our disengage will be 30% less effective.

                    Alternatively if you give a hunter might or kings they will be able to do more damage thereby making their misdirection sequence a lot more powerful. If they get aggro then they can still feign death or disengage to drop threat and still leave the paladin with the higher threat level from misdirection.

                    I wasn't aware that Salv had an adverse effect on the Aggro redirects. I'd like to try that out sometime... Let's go find a mob and play around with it and see what KTM shows us. And, you'll forgive me if i'm a bit... weary to give the most horribly consistant aggro pulling class Kings or Might. :P It's not you Tarenth, because somehow, in a sea of huntards, you've learned to play... but there are some hunters out there that get Salv no matter what. (even if i just see them passing by me in a city. Bam. Salv. Take that, Jerk that pulled aggro from me in Scholo.)


                    As for what Deleo said, it's spot on about working on the off-targets. I find that after one full blast of consecrate, Off targets are rather attracted to me, and while a giant nuke will come close to pulling them off, it should still be safe. This, of course, is an entirely relative thing though... if you're wearing the new epic bathrobe with 4 jillion spell damage, you'd better hope your tankadin has the +threat enchant.


                    Another thing to mention, (and this is entirely a matter of personal style and taste,) While tanking, I never stay focused on the main target in a group pull after they reach about 20% (10 percent if it's got a whole ton of HP). This is because in alot of group pulls, There's going to be more AOE than just my consecrate on these guys, and even with your 30% reduction, it can add up. Once the main mob is on the verge of death, My aggro is beyond set, (i've been smacking him with about 3000 holy damage every 8 seconds when you factor in my seals and judgements.) I usually turn away from the main mob and start Showing the next mob the way to the Light... (at the end of the tunnel... HAR!) to rebuild my buffer so that I don't lose him when a ninja or mage find land that lucky 22 chain crit.


                    And, Another thing.

                    Undead.
                    - Pallies aren't 'Better at tanking undead' than warriors, especially since the expansion. Yes, we can do a large chunk of Damage to undead, (Exorcize, when specced a certain way consistantly crits at about 1500, every 15 seconds, And Holy Wrath can do that much to about 6 mobs at once after a short cast time, and a minute cooldown (It got nerfed a while back... I used to be able to hit about 30 mobs for 1200 damage each... now, if there are more than 6 or 8 mobs, the damage gets distributed)
                    Either way, just because we have two spells that work solely on undead, doesn't make us anymore effective at holding aggro on them. (Although, Exorcize does practically work as a damaging taunt when used with Righteous Fury)
                    _________________



                    I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                      Don't forget demons. Your undead spells work on demons just as well now. ^_^

                      Oh and here's the reference I got my salvation information from
                      Originally posted by WoWWiki - Formulas:Aggro
                      Known bugs
                      Threat reduction abilities are also affected by threat reducing effects.

                      Example: Rogues have -29 % threat as an inate ability which is always active. Feint reduces threat by -800. However. the -29% affects feint, which causes it to remove only 568 threat, instead of the avertised ammount.
                      What works for the goose works for the gander and since rogue feint works on the same principle as disengage it suffers the same penlty. And yeah, sometimes it is just better to cast salvation on the hunter and not worry about things beyond that. I know I have an annoying habit of forgetting to use my trinkets and misdirection on trash so the extra AP from kings/might would just be extra aggro I'd have to deal with.
                      Last edited by Tarenth; 03-24-2007, 12:18 PM.
                      My sanity is not in question...
                      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                        Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                        Don't forget demons. You're undead spells work on demons just as well now. ^_^

                        Oh and here's the reference I got my salvation information from

                        What works for the goose works for the gander and since rogue feint works on the same principle as disengage it suffers the same penlty. And yeah, sometimes it is just better to cast salvation on the hunter and not worry about things beyond that. I know I have an annoying habit of forgetting to use my trinkets and misdirection on trash so the extra AP from kings/might would just be extra aggro I'd have to deal with.
                        Hmmm. Fair enough.

                        I wasn't even aware of rogues having an innate aggro reduction. Ah, how WoW amazes me sometimes.
                        _________________



                        I'm planning on respeccing to Irritation pretty soon. Granted, I'll lose the burst DPS from Pissing People Off Outright, but I'll get DoT's and higher damage through AoE's.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                          Originally posted by Manny View Post
                          Hmmm. Fair enough.

                          I wasn't even aware of rogues having an innate aggro reduction. Ah, how WoW amazes me sometimes.
                          They've had a base aggro of only 80% forever, unlike other classes having 100% aggro. Druid cat form just recieved that 80% at expansion time, so we're not pulling as often...unless our gear is crit heavy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                            Warriors not in defensive stance also have 80% base aggro. In fact, because the threat threshold for pulling aggro is 20% lower for melee than ranged all melee DPS classes had that little feature built in.

                            And like Crebis says they just recently gave it to feral cat druids to bring them up to par.

                            No for paladins though because they really were never ment to be heavy melee DPS. Not ment to be even if they have the potential to do it.
                            My sanity is not in question...
                            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: So you've got a Paladin Tanking for you?

                              Originally posted by Iliana View Post
                              If you have a pally tank NO CRAZY MAGES!!! This means YOU Amalie!
                              lol.. very funny ili :-P

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