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  • Tanks: flask or not?

    Since I discovered the [item]Flask of Fortification[/item] the other night, I decided to do a little research on its value. I'm not familiar with exactly how "tank points" are calculated, but they do seem to be a fairly common standard for judging equipment. Here's what somebody posted (and I'm not qualified to verify):

    Elixir of Major Agility (B) + Elixir of Major Defense (G) = 3136 tank points
    Elixir of Mastery (B) + Elixir of Major Defense (G) = 2976 tank points
    Flask of Fortification (B+G) = 2898 tank points

    The tradeoff, of course, is that the flask lasts through death. So it's up to the individual to judge what they can afford to spend on a night's raiding and bring the appropriate stuff.

    Note that the tooltip on the flask that shows up on these forums is wrong. The old formulation was 1500 health and 30 defense rating, which would make it by far the best choice. Now it is down to 500 health and 10 defense.

    If you would like these made, please contact me anytime. The mats are 1 Fel Lotus, 3 Mana Thistle, 7 Ancient Lichen, and 1 Imbued Vial. Like all flasks, I can only make them at an Alchemy Lab (basically means in Shattrath), so please give me notice before a raid if you want some made.

    Gnop

    Gnopaine - Level 70 Warlock (Affliction)
    Scarpia (aka Edbane) - Level 70 Paladin (Holy)
    Ripoffron - Level 1 Auction House Hustler

  • #2
    Re: Tanks: flask or not?

    id like to add my hunter discovered the flask as well, however gnopaine i think is elixir spec? my hunter will be but at this moment hes now, and he gets skill ups for this flask! hes 366 atm hoping to have him to 375 soon
    Tip: If you're dumb like me to add a item link in a post type out [item]Item Name Here[/item]

    Quote Of The Month
    "It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip the bird."

    RAWR!!!



    Xyris: 70 Shadow Priest
    Faeron: 64 Beast Mastery Hunter

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    • #3
      Re: Tanks: flask or not?

      Here's my reaction...I think the flask is worth having for our raids AND is to be preferred over the elixirs BECAUSE of its persistence through death.

      We are pushing ahead with all possible speed, still learning the ins and outs of the instance encounters. This means wipes or tank deaths in an unpredictable manner through bad luck, lag, inexperience, afk, missed heals, missed "clicks", etc., etc. The elixir combinations can be superior, but ultimately more costly because of the probability of 5+ tank deaths per raiding instance.

      /raise hand

      I will always be willing to use a flask and will work to farm the mats for you on my alt (or buy them if all else fails).
      Beep


      Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do. - (Isaac Asimov)

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      • #4
        Re: Tanks: flask or not?

        I think that would make a little more sense if you actually explained how you calculated these 'tank points' or where you got this information from.

        Here's a list of all 'tanky' elixirs and flasks.

        Battle:
        [item]Elixir of Brute Force[/item] (Str for block + Stam for hp)
        [item]Elixir of Major Strength[/item] (Str for block)
        [item]Elixir of Major Agility[/item] (Agility for Dodge/armor)
        [item]Elixir of Mastery[/item] (Str for block, Stam for hp, Agility for dodge/armor)

        Guardian:
        [item]Major Troll's Blood Potion[/item] (Hp/5)
        [item]Elixir of Major Fortitude[/item] (+250 Hp unaffected by kings and Hp/5)
        [item]Earthen Elixir[/item] (-20 damage per attack)
        [item]Elixir of Major Defense[/item] (+550 armor)

        Flask:
        [item]Flask of Chromatic Resistance[/item] (+25 all resistance)
        [item]Flask of the Titans[/item] (+400 hp unaffected by kings)
        [item]Flask of Fortification[/item] (+500 hp unaffected by kings, +10 defense rating)
        [item]Flask of Chromatic Wonder[/item] (+35 all resistance and +18 all stats)

        Something to note is that an Elixir of Mastery and an Elixir of Major Fortitude will give you 420 hp with kings and the vitality talent in addition to 16 agility, 17 strength, and 10 hp/5. You'll have to refresh it after every death, but it is significantly more powerful than a Titan's flask. Alternatively you could use a cheaper Elixir of Brute Force instead for 450 hp, 21 strength, and 10 hp/5 at the cost of 16 agility.

        If the fight lasts longer than 125 seconds (2 minutes 5 seconds) then a Major Troll's Blood Potion will end up giving you more HP back than an Elixir of Major Fortitude the same way Mana/5 gives back more mana to a caster than straight intel.

        If you're learning a fight or haven't gotten it down pat yet (like Mags or Voidreaver) then you should be using a flask for the wipes and Fortification is greater than Titans.

        If we've got the fight on farm status (like Gruul's Lair) then I suggest you go for two elixirs instead for the greater bang.
        Last edited by orion808; 09-14-2007, 06:16 PM.
        My sanity is not in question...
        It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


        Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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        • #5
          Re: Tanks: flask or not?

          Originally posted by Xyris View Post
          id like to add my hunter discovered the flask as well, however gnopaine i think is elixir spec? my hunter will be but at this moment hes now, and he gets skill ups for this flask! hes 366 atm hoping to have him to 375 soon
          Yes, I should have mentioned that...I switched to Elixir Mastery last week, so if I make flasks there is occasionally a chance to proc extras.

          Tarenth is right to question the provenance of the "tank points" thing, but I can't provide a lot of background on it. It is something that the tanks in my old guild used to bandy about in some theorycrafting discussions, and I think it was something developed at Elitist Jerks (not sure). This particular claim of tank points was just taken from commentary on wowhead, and is to be taken with as much salt as you can stand. I mostly wanted to get the discussion started on when a tank should flask up.

          The general point is that all the flasks are tuned so they are slightly worse than mixing the best Battle and Guardian elixirs for your class. The question for each person is whether they want to flask once and get less benefit, or spend tons of money reapplying elixirs after each wipe. I'm insane, so I tend to go the latter route most of the time, and then stay up late running dailies to pay for it. >.< Most reasonable people should probably use the flasks until something is on farm.

          Gnopaine - Level 70 Warlock (Affliction)
          Scarpia (aka Edbane) - Level 70 Paladin (Holy)
          Ripoffron - Level 1 Auction House Hustler

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Tanks: flask or not?

            Druids run the same kind of "Tank Points" but with different stat importance...called Mitigation Points (coined by emmerald on the EU forums). I actually have a spreadsheet based on hit point values for each stat that I used for leveling and gear preference. I included gems....maybe I should include flasks vs. Guardian/Battle Elixir combos to see what druids should value the most.

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            • #7
              Re: Tanks: flask or not?

              It will depend on where I am going and what I'm doing. Generally I will take a Flask of Fortification (Gruul, Mags) but if I go in knowing I need to offtank/dps (hehe), say on Curator, I'll go the elixir route.

              Level 80 Warrior
              Level 74 Priest

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              • #8
                Re: Tanks: flask or not?

                so basically the flask of fort is only good if you plan to run something that we know takes multiple attempts and/or we have no other flasks provided (i.e. gruuls flasks)

                so i should start makin loads of elixirs to bring for the off off tanks for stuff like mags?
                if so which elixirs are best?
                Tip: If you're dumb like me to add a item link in a post type out [item]Item Name Here[/item]

                Quote Of The Month
                "It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip the bird."

                RAWR!!!



                Xyris: 70 Shadow Priest
                Faeron: 64 Beast Mastery Hunter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Tanks: flask or not?

                  The further into content you go, the less relevant the elixirs become and the more relevant the flasks become. Simply put, being a damage soak is better than having high avoidance, and the best way to become a damage soak is through higher health.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Tanks: flask or not?

                    (I have not played with you. However my background on this is raiding on a Warlock up to Lady Vashj and Kael. I also have a 70 warrior that I did not raid higher than Prince with, but tanked Heroics)

                    Flasks are for progression content.

                    Elixers are for farm content. Unless your rich, and like re-potting after death.

                    Yes, combinations of Elixers are better, but for progression content where you can count on multiple deaths, flasks are better. Easier to manage (can't forget to re-apply), last longer, and are cheaper in the long run.

                    Also, the big argument with tanks and using Flask of Fortification is Maximum Health Progression Tanks (aka the Main Tank) should focus on getting their health and armor the highest they can. This allows them to soak more and larger hits, and making them easier to heal.

                    On farm content (likely Kara looking through your posts here) you can just pop an Aglity elixer for the crit and dodge, as your much less likely to die.
                    I am the one, I am the zero, I am your low resolution hero.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tanks: flask or not?

                      Flasks are much better than elixirs. Tank Point Ratings are arbitrary and IMO, next to worthless.

                      If you are a tank, consistent stam is supreme.
                      -F-

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