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Great Tanking Resources

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  • Great Tanking Resources

    Not sure how many people know/care but i have found some great tanking resources and they have been put into a free book that you can download.

    I only found TankSpot recenctly but was amazed at the amount of information that is found there. Some Key reading are Of Steel and Fortifications. Both of these are amazing references in and of themselves and i would dare say should be required reading for any warrior(wish i had found this back when i was leveling Delg). But now these resources, along with a few extra ones like Mozman's Macros, Meeks' Dual Wield Fury Guide, and Kazaganthi's Guide to Arenas are available in a FREE downloadable book in case you want to print and bring it around with you.. or does that make me too much of a geek.... oh well.

    also i just noticed there is a new Pally Tanking Guide up as well, though i would ask Aestryd/Aegyn to supply links to some of the resources he has found in that area. And if Talara or Ghost know of any good druid tanking resources they would also not go amiss for those new druids out there.

  • #2
    Re: Great Tanking Resources

    Awesome find Delg! thanks for the post

    Level 80 Warrior
    Level 74 Priest


    • #3
      Re: Great Tanking Resources

      Just saw a new Druid anking Guide posted on tankspot/theoryspot. Not sure if it is good/bad need to hear from some of our bears.


      • #4
        Re: Great Tanking Resources

        ***Stamp of Approval***

        I've seen parts of that guide in places. Emmerald and Toskk are know for their math skills in the druid forums and clearing up the debate over stats/gear. I would tend to disagree on some of the talent suggestions, but overall, it's not bad. If some of our druids want info, feel free to ask your fellow Durids. (Spelling intentional...go Alamo...sum durid r Bare.)


        • #5
          Re: Great Tanking Resources

          This came up in this week:

          Couple of interesting links in there.
          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."


          • #6
            Re: Great Tanking Resources

            I disagree with a lot of the points made on the paladin talents. I'll go into detail if you'd like, but I don't feel like typing a lot right now =)


            • #7
              Re: Great Tanking Resources

              Please do Ark, I think everyone could use as much info as possible on how non-warrior tanking operates and how we can work with it.
              Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

              | | |


              • #8
                Re: Great Tanking Resources

                Concured. Beyond "Tankadins rock" and "Need more mana!" my experiences with them have had mixed results.

                Like the Ret/Holy paladin who tried to tank normal Shattered halls...
                ...with 8000 hp.

                That was a short run.
                My sanity is not in question...
                It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

                Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.


                • #9
                  Re: Great Tanking Resources

                  Basically, that guide operates under a lot of standard assumptions that I like to throw out the window. It is very apparent that the suggested talent spread was selected with only a first-order look at exactly what the talents do.

                  Now, not many paladin tanks share my opinions. However, there really aren't that many Paladin tanks out there at my level of progression, and those that I've seen who are, they make some interesting spec choices that surprise me sometimes. Nonetheless, I'd urge you to seriously consider what I'm about to write.

                  First, the biggest thing that pains me is when I see Redoubt -> Shield Spec taken. Redoubt is a wasted talent. Absolute waste. Once you reach uncrushability with Holy Shield, Redoubt adds nothing to the table. Very few bosses are capable of burning through 8 charges of Holy Shield, and that's assuming that they manage to land each of their hits in those 10 seconds. But with proper avoidance numbers, it's impossible. Sure, it can up your block chance on AOE packs, but I don't know of any realistic scenario where you'll EVER AOE tank mobs capable of landing crushing blows.

                  Redoubt is taken simply because it is linked to Shield Spec, and this is why many paladin tanks opt for the talent. Shield Spec sounds good at first glance, right? 30% extra block value is good, right? Well, yes, but also no. For Shield Spec to really be worth the 8 points that it costs it better be adding a ton of Block Value to your set. I'm sitting in 2/5 T6 and 2/5 T5 and my raw BV is 305. That means Shield Spec would add about 100 points of block value for me. And when I'm parsing at 60% avoidance, that BV isn't really adding up to that much.

                  In order to make Shield Spec worthwhile, you need to have significant BV on your gear. And to do that you need to itemize around it. But there's a catch.

                  Warriors suffer a major problem, and that's that their only scalable threat comes in the form of Block Value -> Shield Slam conversions. Most warriors carry around a BV set for stuff like trash and high threat fights. If a warrior is tanking in a situation that demands high TPS output, and is wearing BV as a result, they also need to be able to dump a lot of rage into high threat abilities. In order to generate that rage, they need to be getting hit. If their avoidance is too high, then they're not generating the rage they need to generate. As a result, most Block Value gear is devoid of avoidance stats.

                  So, for a paladin to make Shield Spec worthwhile, they have to not only effectively spend 8 points in the talent, they have to completely marginalize all of their avoidance. When it comes to tanking large AOE packs or hard hitting bosses, they will suffer as a result. All for what, 150 damage off a swing?

                  In my opinion, Block Value is a nice stat to have, but it is not a worthwhile stat to build towards as a paladin. I get just about as much raw mitigation out of Imp Devo Aura than I do from the extra damage absorbtion from Shield Spec.

                  The second thing that bothers me is when I see paladins without Reckoning in their tank build. This is becoming more and more common, and if I find the fool who's saying to spec out of reckoning, I'm going to bludgeon them.

                  A few things are theoretically true. One, as you get gear upgrades and your avoidance goes up, reckoning procs less frequently. At a T4 level of gear, fully raid buffed, a paladin tank will probably parse at about 48% avoidance. That means that given 1000 incoming damage swings, 520 will land, and Reckoning will proc off 52 of them.

                  At my level of gear, I parse a pretty steady 60% avoidance. That means that given 1000 incoming damage swings, 400 land, and Reckoning procs off 40 of them. In other words, at a T4 level, you'll have a 5.2% chance on an incoming swing to get a Reck buff. At T6, you'll have a 4.0% chance. So you're looking at a loss of 1.2% effectiveness on Reckoning going from Kara to BT.

                  However, a T4 level paladin tank will get by with about 300 spell damage. I have 445 spell damage unbuffed in my max mitigation gear. That's a 48% increase in spell damage. Assuming using a 1.6 speed weapon, the T4 tank is getting about 45 extra damage from his SoR procs, and I'm getting 66.75 extra damage.

                  Basically by having Reckoning, as you gain gear upgrades, you'll see procs happening about 1.2% less based on each incoming swing, but by not having reckoning you're losing out on generating all that extra threat when it does proc.

                  Long story short, as you gain gear upgrades, it does proc less but when it does proc you get a hell of a TPS boost from it.

                  The second issue with Reckoning that is theoretically true is that Reckoning procs can lead to insta-gibs from parries. Two attacks = double the chance to parry. However, I have never, ever been gimped by a parry mechanic as a result of a Reck proc. Never once. Really, I couldn't live without this talent.

                  Another thing I take issue with is this assumption that prot paladins have to have kings. I raid with 3 other paladins on a regular basis. Kings is a standard buff in any holy paladin build. Why the frack do I need kings when there are three other paladins in the raid with it. If your holy paladins DON'T have kings, make sure they get it. Not every encounter will require a prot paladin in the raid. But every encounter IS going to require a healing paladin. So at the very least the main tank will need Kings.

                  Last is the assumption that maxing out 1h weapons spec is necessary. It's a nice talent. Up to 5% extra threat is good. But since you need to fill in points to get past the Tier of Suck (4th tier in the tree), put the points into Precision and take them from 1H Weapon Spec. Mathematically it levels out. Gain 2% in hit, lose 2% in overall damage. Realistically it's a little different. Partial resists, binary resists, all that fun stuff really muddles with the true efficacy of both talents, but that's really an academic distinction that's only worth discussing if you really want to get pedantic about things.

                  In the end, spec that feels right for how you play, but play to help your raid.


                  • #10
                    Re: Great Tanking Resources

                    Originally posted by Arkamis View Post
                    Another thing I take issue with is this assumption that prot paladins have to have kings. I raid with 3 other paladins on a regular basis. Kings is a standard buff in any holy paladin build. Why the frack do I need kings when there are three other paladins in the raid with it. If your holy paladins DON'T have kings, make sure they get it.
                    <coughlunacough> :P

                    Tarma: 80 Enhancement Shaman | Koliana: 70 Balance Druid
                    Salelen: 70 Discipline Priest | Jadrek: 70 Arcane Mage
                    Kerowhyn: 67 Retribution Paladin | Talenoth: 69 Unholy Death Knight
                    Caldac: 60 Beast Master Hunter | Kamina: 58 Protection Warrior
                    Celendra: 45 Combat Rogue

                    I had it all! I had it all and then I lost it. Lost... all gone... like... my mind. My mind is like... cheese. I like cheese.


                    • #11
                      Re: Great Tanking Resources

                      I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the guide is meant for prot pallies that are just starting out, and to that end, are not expected to be raiding in a 25 man setting as a protadin. Many of the talents that ark has issue with make sense if looked at for a 5 man/heroic setting, and possibly even KZ.

                      It makes sense to me to have Kings, if you're not expecting to have another pally that's specced for raiding. Before I catch flack for saying that, a *very* common holy paladin build that gives more focus on solo/questing has quite a bit into the ret tree, and as such will not typically have kings, or really anything into prot. For 5 mans, this makes sense, especially for those starting pallies struggling to get more hp, while still maintaining acceptable def.

                      Shield Spec/Redoubt:
                      Again, for a starting tank, or those that don't hit uncrushable (w/ holy shield) this makes sense to me, a lot more than the extra 400 or so armor. Granted shield Spec does quite little, it's good at non-elite mobs when grinding for rep/other. The kinds of things that a non raider toon will be more likely to face. Also, both are usefull for palces like Shattered Halls.

                      I don't really have any beef with someone putting all 5 in to reckoning, in fact I used to have 5/5 in it until the patch, but I gave up the points for Imp SoC since I don't expect to have another pally that will be judging it, and keeping it up while healing. Also, I don't expect to have a retadin, since atm I don't think the guild even has one (I'd love it if I was wrong).

                      1h Weapon Spec:
                      It's a good, solid talent, but I can understand certain reasons for not taking it, or not taking 5/5 in it. I actually took a point out of it for 1/5 reckoning, and 3 out for the hit percentage 3/3.

                      I think the guide does a fine job of talent choices, as it seems to be meant more towards a starting Tankadin.

                      Just my two cents,

                      Aestryd 80 Prot Pally / Epimetheus 70 Feral Druid / Yuusei 74 Enhancement Shaman
                      Camsmule 70 Fury/Prot Warrior / Tamrissa 70 Affliction Warlock / Aegyn 70 Holy Priest
                      Shyff 70 Arcane Mage / Indrus 62 Combat Rogue


                      • #12
                        Re: Great Tanking Resources

                        Well I went back to my bookmarks, and looked for some of the guides that I used a couple of months ago when I first started tanking and here's what I found, and upon skimming through feel that they offer sound advice. I will say, that though some people may disagree with some of the comments about talents it is meant for those that are just beginning, or those that want to know more after having already started.


                        At the bottom of the post, it links to which I still cruise through and find answers to most of my questions and thoughts.

                        For the raid leaders, group leaders, and the just plain curious if you're wanting something a bit more compact on pally tanks and the weaknesses and mechanics involved, here you go:


                        Aestryd 80 Prot Pally / Epimetheus 70 Feral Druid / Yuusei 74 Enhancement Shaman
                        Camsmule 70 Fury/Prot Warrior / Tamrissa 70 Affliction Warlock / Aegyn 70 Holy Priest
                        Shyff 70 Arcane Mage / Indrus 62 Combat Rogue




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