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  • Are we doing something wrong here?

    Last night we had some really great games. TG versus the pubbies. It was a lot of fun, and I think we worked as a team really well....Especially on Oil Fields, where we were calling RYN in for airstrikes, grouping up and taking capture points, etc.


    However, we lost. It was a marginal loss, but a loss nonetheless. This got me thinking: What are we doing wrong here? By all means, we should be winning. We have extremely skilled players, coupled with the fact that we are using teamspeak to coordinate efforts. Why did we lose that map?

    I was thinking of a few things which could help us capture points and keep them captured. The problem with that map was that we were all over the place with not enough focus.

    We SHOULD be winning these games. We need a plan.

    I have no solution to this problem we faced, but I do have a few ideas:



    1. Pick a role, and stick with it.

    Roles are very helpful in the heat of the battle. Knowing that RYN is flying an anti-ground jet, or that dudeman is our support man really helps when you need someone ASAP (this really helped last night, where I could call RYN in to clear out capture points before I rolled in with my Bradley).

    An example. Last night, I had this pilot on my tail who I couldn't shake for the life of me (those playing last night know how fustrating those gelatin guys were :(). I made a request on TS for someone with an anti-air kit, but nobody responded fast enough. My plan was to swing low with him on my tail, and have someone blast him out of the sky with a well-placed stinger. Had I know who our anti air man was, I could have requested his coordinates, told him my situation, and I could have had him blown to bits.



    2. Coordinate and Focus.

    One of the problems last night was that we, as a team, were all over the place. Everyone was doing something different. While this is needed sometimes, I think it is more advantageous to stick together as a group and focus on one point at a time.

    On Oil Fields last night, we were doing a great job of taking back capture points, but the enemy was quicker, and they were just moving right in without any resistance. Also, it was impossible to take enemy positions if they had more than one vehicle at any given point (by the time you'd call for backup, they would see you and blow the @#%# out of you).

    We should be using teamspeak to our advantage. It's much easier to coordinate attacks over instantanious voice communication. Let's use this to our advantage. If we're losing points on a map, let's all stick together in an Armored division (2 tanks, one support in an anti-air vehicle, and one pilot with an air-to-ground jet?) and take them back one at a time. The other team is not very organized, and it's hard to take down a whole team when they're working together so tightly.



    3. DEFENSE!

    I think one of the most important things we were failing to do last night was to defend our capture points. Remember, it isn't crucial that we capture ALL points on a given map...if there are more points than there are players (Oil Fields), then it is more important that we have the MAJORITY of points, and that we defend them well. After that, it's just a matter of time.

    If you're going to capture a point, stay there. I can't stress this enough. If you are just driving through points, capturing them and moving on, you are doing nothing but giving the enemy the opprotunity to get a higher score. Instead of doing this, stick with one point at a time. Start out with an organized team (as said in point 2), but have one man stick behind per point. All it really takes is one Special Ops or Anti-Armor class to defend a point. Let your team know what you are doing, and tell them to focus on working on other points. If they see you die, they know exactly where to head.



    4. Team Commanders

    This has been said a lot in the past, but it really would be the best way to tie everything together: Have one man in charge of giving out orders.

    Imagine playing GR without a team leader? It would be chaos! The same logic applies here. The only difference as it stands between us TGers and pubbies is that we are letting each other know what we are doing. We are still doing our own thing. We're just like the pubbies when we play this way, except they are not concerned whatsoever with what their team is doing.

    We need organization. The best and easiest way to do this would be to have someone giving out roles. It's hard for someone to choose to sit at a capture point when the action is on the other side of the map. However, if we had someone TELLING that person to defend that point, that point would stay defended.

    I really feel like this is what would tie everything together and give us that TG edge. Once people see how we work as a team, they WILL show interest. I know if i joined a server where the team was skillful, organized, and focused, I would be very impressed. If I was given the opprotunity to JOIN this team....well, I would jump right on it.

    We just need a way of nominating the team leaders. All that's needed there is an initial volunteer....after that, we could just take turns leading. I know from now on, I'm going to be asking if anyone wants to take the Commander role, just to see how it all works out.



    Bonus Minor Point 5. Use Grid References!

    On a side note, I found it's much easier for everyone to refer to capture points as grid references, rather than "southeast point" and the like. You don't even have to memorize the phonetic alphabet....a simple D4 or A2 will do. (However, the letters on the grid only go up to H, so it wouldn't be too hard)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    These are just some of my ideas. I know you guys are going to have responses / ideas yourselves, so let's hear them :D

    Aplogizing for such a long post,
    Miko ;)

  • #2
    Very well thought out and good points all around... I think we need to try and properly use combinations of vehicles as well. IE: Getting an Apache to escort around an M1A1 and properly using someone on artillery with a good spotter.

    Granted, it's only in the larger games that we can really explore these combinations, but we've got to start somewhere!
    Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

    Comment


    • #3
      Excellent stuff Miko.
      If you're going to capture a point, stay there. I can't stress this enough.
      I'll second this! I've played on maps/servers where a single lone person capturing the 2nd out of 3 flags - and then defending it at all costs - is utterly decisive. And having air-power respond to his reports of enemy choppers and tanks, as well as additional spawns when under attack, is also very helpful.

      I will say that you do need a minimum number of people to play the way we want. If there are more flags than people on each team, then our "tactical and strategic" advantage is likely much smaller.

      Use Grid References
      Uhhhh, maybe all you Ghost Recon spookies are super familiar with this (so are letters the horizontal?), but I find that "north flag", "south flag", "middle flag", "east flag" to be instantaneously recognizable, and my reports of "chopper north east of north flag" are more easily recognized by my fast movers than a grid reference.

      I also find that it's not easy to quickly figure out what grid reference an enemy target in the distance is without bringing up the map and doing 5 seconds of "where is that mountain on the map, what grid is that". By that time, the fast mover or even mobile ground unit has moved off.

      Meh - maybe I should simply force myself to use grids more often when on the TG server. Just like I need to up the fire discipline to prevent friendly fire here, what with the FF-on and Tag-settings here. Those sure make it different. (Just occurred to me, grids are super useful if the area where you are located does not have any recognizable landmarks - so on the plains away from the flags, it's definitely the right thing to use...)

      Last night I was infiltrating into an enemy position, encountered another infantryman, and we danced around without firing at one another for 20+ seconds as we vainly tried to determine if there was another little arrow on our minimaps and get our relative minimap-mental-directions sorted out. He must have decided I was friendly, as in the end he turned his back to me and stared out at the plain looking for our tanks.

      Whereupon I shot him dead. :)

      Comment


      • #4
        Miko, it's glad to see someone come over to the darkside. Flux and I have been playing BF together for some time and have been trying to get some of those points across. We've had the advantage of playing longer than some other people and know each other's style of play.

        To add to your points...

        1. Pick a role and stick with it...
        We need certain roles within the team so there may be times to switch. Look to see what roles are already in use. You can see this when you are selecting your role to spawn in with. a) If no on is anti-armor / stinger... and the team needs one, then pick it. b) Also decide what you're planning to do in the map. There are times when I plan to just hold a flag so I'll pick anti-armor. c) Announce to the team what you are doing. I'll tell ppl I'm holding a certain flag or available for air support.

        2. Coordinate and focus...
        Sticking together is key. a) If you spawn in early... wait for others to join. Look at the map to know where help is needed, not just where you want a vehicle. b) If you're in a plane and see a tank heading towards an enemy flag, fly ahead of them and lay down some support. c) if you're the tank, call for air-support shortly before you get there. d) if someone calls for re-enforcements, DON'T everyone head to help. Call out ROGER if you are going to help out so other's can hang back. e) Another thing I haven't noticed as much is ppl calling for medic or for repair. Partly because these roles aren't used as much in DC.

        3. Defense
        Right on! Many times I'll announce we don't need ALL the flags. Also, holding choke points and front-line flags only doesn't always work. The enemy can fly over us and take our key flags, then squeeze us.

        4. Team Commander
        This will be interesting. I haven't seen this work yet with BF, but I haven't played with a group using TS like we do. I'd like to see how this will work. In the absence of a commander, one way to help is to announce to the team your role. Say you are defending which flag or choke hold so others can attempt to work elsewhere.

        5. Using Grids
        I wish there was a better grid system because sometimes there are multiple flags in one grid. I guess just try to be as precise as possible.

        Good points across the board, Miko.
        |TG-12th| asch
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by asch
          e) Another thing I haven't noticed as much is ppl calling for medic or for repair. Partly because these roles aren't used as much in DC.
          I usually go medic if I don't go anti-armor/anti-air. However, I agree that people don't call out for medics even if I am standing close to them and seen them taking fire. Though I do heal them ;)

          Comment


          • #6
            I think that's mostly because there is no real point in being healed. I don't think there is enough health for there to be a point.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MikoLovesYou
              I think that's mostly because there is no real point in being healed. I don't think there is enough health for there to be a point.
              one on one? maybe. But if you have several people who are wounded, wouldn't that help to heal them?

              Which is easier to assault?

              Point A defended by wounded people (say 3) or point B defended by 3 healthy people because of a medic healing everyone?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CK
                I'll second this! I've played on maps/servers where a single lone person capturing the 2nd out of 3 flags - and then defending it at all costs - is utterly decisive. And having air-power respond to his reports of enemy choppers and tanks, as well as additional spawns when under attack, is also very helpful.

                I will say that you do need a minimum number of people to play the way we want. If there are more flags than people on each team, then our "tactical and strategic" advantage is likely much smaller.
                There are many times when you really do need to capture and move. For strategic reasons on many maps it's easier to hold specific choke points and you might be on the wrong side of it if you want to push back the enemy and hold him there.

                You also might need to help a teammate with their assault and help him cap his flag before returning to your own guard duties. I think we just need to put more of an emphasis on defense, not necessarily to force that behavior because you've capped a flag. If that makes sense.
                Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd also like to see us coordinate our defense with the offense. If the person on offense sees he is out gunned, he can call the person on defense to go ahead and start coming in and inform them of the enemies position. So the idea is the person on defense gets a start towards the battle and as the person on offense dies they spawn in and assume the defensive position that the other person just left.

                  This way you get your offense in as soon as possible without comprimising your defensive positions. You also gain a little intel and hopefully can knock the enemy down a bit before the new troops roll in.

                  This is a very effective tactic on maps like El Alamein.
                  flux
                  [tg-c1]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by flux
                    I'd also like to see us coordinate our defense with the offense. If the person on offense sees he is out gunned, he can call the person on defense to go ahead and start coming in and inform them of the enemies position. So the idea is the person on defense gets a start towards the battle and as the person on offense dies they spawn in and assume the defensive position that the other person just left.
                    Just like calling for re-enforcements!!!

                    Another tactic (wrong forum, I know) that flux and I use is this...
                    1. flux is attacking flag A
                    2. asch is defending flag B
                    3. flux dies before taking flag A (always happens) :P
                    4. asch heads towards flag A on offense
                    5. flux spawns at flag B to defend
                    6. asch takes flag A and holds it. :D

                    This way we can keep a constant attack/defense going.
                    |TG-12th| asch
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by asch
                      A bunch of stuff I already said
                      or did I miss something. Did you get your A's and B's mixed up? Were we on the same team? Do you read your posts?
                      flux
                      [tg-c1]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by flux
                        Did you get your A's and B's mixed up? Were we on the same team? Do you read your posts?
                        Inquiring minds want to know...
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                        • #13
                          Well after last night, I think I've discovered...

                          THE SECRET OF THE PUBBY

                          Simply put: Run into battle senselessly, die 18 times, but never give up. Have your internet buddy (who you're not talking to at all) climb into an Apache again, and again to knock-out all defenses on a base nobody's trying to take at the moment. But, hey, he's getting lot's of kills, eh? Join a game at the mid-point and always go coalition, no matter what the team stack is...and if you happen to get caught on the opposition side...play a few rounds to size up your teammate's capabilities before high-tailing it over to the coalition side for the big win.

                          Really, though. I would say we had some moderate coordination, bordering on good coordination last night. But we lost a few by the skin of our teeth. I'll put that down to being outnumbered for a few, but I think we could have beaten those guys. The problem is this (at least for me): Let's use the refinery map as an example. I spawn in at the south-west flag and immediately lay down a series of mines, etc for denial. Join the big push with OS&D all the way up to the far north point, which we take. Immediately, I lay down mines on the bridge and stay put to defend an attack across the north bridge. All of this coordinated, mind you. Of course, everybody and his brother on the coalition side starts attacking the center point...it becomes EXTREMELY tempting for me to give up my defense of the north to aid in the defense of the center.

                          The other thing is this, we really shouldn't be afraid to take those transport helos, loaded with men into the fray. Drop our paras on the point in a kind of blitzkrieg (sp?) fashion. Of course, we need numbers to do this.

                          Edit:
                          From asch:
                          Just like calling for re-enforcements!!!

                          Another tactic (wrong forum, I know) that flux and I use is this...
                          1. flux is attacking flag A
                          2. asch is defending flag B
                          3. flux dies before taking flag B (always happens)
                          4. asch heads towards flag B on offense
                          5. flux spawns at flag A to defend
                          6. asch takes flag B and holds it.

                          This way we can keep a constant attack/defense going.
                          Dude, that rocks! Now we're talking.
                          |TG| HOUDINI






                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I concur with some of the thoughts voiced here. The main problem is that people do not defend flags enough, and for some reason think that we need ALL the flags instead of a majority of the flags. This just leads to musical flags..

                            Also, people do not seem to pay attention to what flags need reinforcing when they spawn. Someone will advance ahead and capture a flag, only to see all of him teammates spawn at the base and then spend the next 5 minutes traveling to that flag, which is lost by that point.

                            3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by flux
                              or did I miss something. Did you get your A's and B's mixed up? Were we on the same team? Do you read your posts?
                              Yeah, we were on the same team and my As and Bs were backwards. I con't spill ither.
                              |TG-12th| asch
                              sigpic

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