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  • I just want to zoom out

    I'm liking some of the features of the game but there are quite a few I feel are lacking compared to the original Dawn of War which came out ages ago.

    Let me zoom out. I have a big screen, I don't need big models as much as I need to see a larger amount of the map. I hate having to manually move the screen to click what is right now one inch off screen.

    AI is still not so hot when models are bunched up. I know it isn't easy, but it's been 10 years right? If nearby models are stuck, move the front ones forward a space automatically. Of have an option to have groups behave in a way where half of a group simply moves 1 distance unit close when attacking.

    I want a mode where I don't have to keep track of resource gathering. I don't care of there are options to attack the gathering (ie they flee into the base) but I don't like the spam gatherers game play. It draws away from enjoying the fighting side of the game for me.

    I want to rotate the camera. I thought we had moved away from sprites :(

    It's a really well polished game, even my rig runs it with everything on Ultra smoothly, and I'm not top of the line.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

  • #2
    Re: I just want to zoom out

    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
    I'm liking some of the features of the game but there are quite a few I feel are lacking compared to the original Dawn of War which came out ages ago.

    Let me zoom out. I have a big screen, I don't need big models as much as I need to see a larger amount of the map. I hate having to manually move the screen to click what is right now one inch off screen.

    AI is still not so hot when models are bunched up. I know it isn't easy, but it's been 10 years right? If nearby models are stuck, move the front ones forward a space automatically. Of have an option to have groups behave in a way where half of a group simply moves 1 distance unit close when attacking.

    I want a mode where I don't have to keep track of resource gathering. I don't care of there are options to attack the gathering (ie they flee into the base) but I don't like the spam gatherers game play. It draws away from enjoying the fighting side of the game for me.

    I want to rotate the camera. I thought we had moved away from sprites :(

    It's a really well polished game, even my rig runs it with everything on Ultra smoothly, and I'm not top of the line.
    Zooming: I think this would give an unfair advantage to those who had the hardware to take advantage of it. Although larger monitors are more common these days, not everyone has one. There is already a discrepancy between resolution ratios with 16:9 having the most horizontal viewing area (16:9 > 15:9 > 16:10 > 4:3 > 5:4).

    AI: There are several reason the AI is, may be the way it is. 1) optimizing (it all costs CPU power) 2) doing what you propose could cause the front units to keep moving without firing if there is a large enough backup, that is not desirable 3) Having everything done for you is not fun. The game already has alot of noob friendly features. I think leaving some micro in is good.

    Resources: This is starcraft, not DoW. In my opinion DoW2 ruined DoW, I hated it. They would alienate many players if they had gone that route in SC2. I was also not fond of C&C4 going in that direction.

    I think there is only so much they could innovate/change without losing what starcraft was all about. One thing I agree with you on is rotating the view, I think that would be nice (you can temporarily rotate like war3 though).


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    • #3
      Re: I just want to zoom out

      hmm, didnt post it B4.
      you realy need to try supreeme commander 2!
      you can spin the camera, check your hotkeys on the menu.


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      • #4
        Re: I just want to zoom out

        Pretty much, all of the above is why I haven't bothered with this game. SC1 was a step backwards in RTS when it came out compared to Total Annihilation, even Age of Empires 2, with choices like the huge zoom in, very small queues, hotkeys everywhere instead of context menus, etc as design decisions to "make the gameplay more intense and frantic".

        And here we are over 12 years later, and the gameplay has NOT evolved past "spam 6 barracks worth of marines" and units STILL can't even move in a group (your marines arrive to the fight and die 2 minutes before your siege tanks, because they don't slow down to the slowest unit so you have to micromanage TROOP MOVEMENT when even AoE 2 had formation marches.)

        It's Starcraft 1 with prettier graphics and FMV cutscenes added in. How long is it going to be before the only maps available in pub games are 5000 different Turret Defense variations and $$MONEY$$ FASTEST MAP EVER type maps, cause thats what SC1 devolved into :/ Can you still spam the ladder with your 2000|0|0 ratio by only ever playing 7 vs 1 CPU?

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        • #5
          Re: I just want to zoom out

          Originally posted by Bisclaveret View Post
          Pretty much, all of the above is why I haven't bothered with this game. SC1 was a step backwards in RTS when it came out compared to Total Annihilation, even Age of Empires 2, with choices like the huge zoom in, very small queues, hotkeys everywhere instead of context menus, etc as design decisions to "make the gameplay more intense and frantic".

          And here we are over 12 years later, and the gameplay has NOT evolved past "spam 6 barracks worth of marines" and units STILL can't even move in a group (your marines arrive to the fight and die 2 minutes before your siege tanks, because they don't slow down to the slowest unit so you have to micromanage TROOP MOVEMENT when even AoE 2 had formation marches.)

          It's Starcraft 1 with prettier graphics and FMV cutscenes added in. How long is it going to be before the only maps available in pub games are 5000 different Turret Defense variations and $$MONEY$$ FASTEST MAP EVER type maps, cause thats what SC1 devolved into :/ Can you still spam the ladder with your 2000|0|0 ratio by only ever playing 7 vs 1 CPU?
          bisc, dont do it, i will never be able to respekt you agen if you say somthing more like that :P
          SC2 is the best RTS game out there, it an compeditive game, so it easy to learn, but hard to master.


          Proud to have been part of the 101st Siege Corps of Engineers
          "Cum bellum clamavit, respondivi"

          Sproge The Crazy Swede

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          • #6
            Re: I just want to zoom out

            Originally posted by Polska View Post
            Zooming: I think this would give an unfair advantage to those who had the hardware to take advantage of it.
            That was EAs excuse for putting off wide screen support for BF2 for years. I've got a moderate rig and it runs everything on Ultra at 40+ FPS during battles, SC2 can handle zooming out some more and it won't be putting a strain on any decent rig using the economy parts from last year's release. Nobody would be put out by being able to zoom out a little.

            I hate it when people justify micro, it's a crutch for being unable to properly plan and execute by using spam tactics instead. Total War's separation of battle and economy is too much for a game like this, but it is a good example of a game that has separation of battle and economy while using units that can work together in ranks to do something. When you group 8 marines in SC it doesn't take much processing power to have some of the group step one unit closer than they normally would if a unit in the back changes direction a couple of times.
            |TG-6th|Snooggums

            Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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            • #7
              Re: I just want to zoom out

              Ahh good ol' Supreme Commander! I still play that game and let it's awesomeness wash over me.

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              • #8
                Re: I just want to zoom out

                Personally I am glad it doesn't allow zooming. I realized this last night while playing the lava level where you have to get your troops and building to high ground when the lava rises.

                I had forgotten how much Starcraft taxed your memory and forces you to create organization strategies in each game. That is part of the game. I think it is a very large part of the game and I really enjoy it. Being able to zoom out would kill that enjoyment for me.

                Zooming is more important on highly strategic games. Starcraft is not a strategic game, it is more of a tactical action game and that limited view adds to the tension of all the chaos.

                I forgot how much I loved this Game. I am glad Blizzard didn't muck with it too much.
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                • #9
                  Re: I just want to zoom out

                  Fog of war already allows for movement without being seen, the zoom really doesn't add anything to the game play other than making you click or move the mouse more often to match SC1. I'm not even talking about full board zoom, I'm referring to zooming out about twice the distance, enough to see a whole starting area at once.
                  |TG-6th|Snooggums

                  Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                  • #10
                    Re: I just want to zoom out

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    Let me zoom out. I have a big screen, I don't need big models as much as I need to see a larger amount of the map. I hate having to manually move the screen to click what is right now one inch off screen.
                    Twould be nice, hopefully they'll patch it in to unlock the zoom level and increase the area to zoom out to. Not necessarilly a bother for me, I got used to it quick.

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    AI is still not so hot when models are bunched up. I know it isn't easy, but it's been 10 years right? If nearby models are stuck, move the front ones forward a space automatically. Of have an option to have groups behave in a way where half of a group simply moves 1 distance unit close when attacking.
                    Agreed. Having your one thor stuck dancing behind a line of marines is unforgivable. Hopefully this is an easy patchable fix.

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    I want a mode where I don't have to keep track of resource gathering. I don't care of there are options to attack the gathering (ie they flee into the base) but I don't like the spam gatherers game play. It draws away from enjoying the fighting side of the game for me.
                    I did enjoy DOW2 and I did enjoy Warcraft 3. They're both very seperate games. However it wouldn't be hard to make a custom game mode for that. In fact I might work on that...

                    Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                    I want to rotate the camera. I thought we had moved away from sprites :(
                    Warcraft 3 had it, I'm quite surprised Starcraft 2 doesn't have it. Used to be the Home and End keys :(

                    There's no reason not to have choices :) But hopefully it's something Blizzard will patch in. I have no doubt they will.

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                    • #11
                      Re: I just want to zoom out

                      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                      I'm liking some of the features of the game but there are quite a few I feel are lacking compared to the original Dawn of War which came out ages ago.
                      ...
                      AI is still not so hot when models are bunched up. I know it isn't easy, but it's been 10 years right? If nearby models are stuck, move the front ones forward a space automatically.
                      They actually have that AI in the game already. It's apparently not that hard to do, they just made a decision that units already attacking will prioritize attacking over getting out of the way. If you think differently and want your troops to get out of the way first and THEN attack, feel free to give them some commands.

                      I want a mode where I don't have to keep track of resource gathering. I don't care of there are options to attack the gathering (ie they flee into the base) but I don't like the spam gatherers game play. It draws away from enjoying the fighting side of the game for me.
                      To each his own, I guess. "Spam the gatherers" isn't just something you have to do, its actually a huge part of strategy in this game. Especially when you play zerg, who can't spam gatherers and combat units at the same time -- so which one are you gonna choose?

                      I want to rotate the camera. I thought we had moved away from sprites :(
                      Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                      Warcraft 3 had it, I'm quite surprised Starcraft 2 doesn't have it. Used to be the Home and End keys :(
                      You can rotate it. I think its insert and delete keys now. It just doesn't stay that way after you release the hotkey. The engine is fully 3-D, its just that camera rotation is not really relevant to the primary gameplay, so its more of a cute quirk than a primary feature.

                      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
                      I hate it when people justify micro...
                      Um...hm...not sure what to say to you here. Micro isn't a bug in this game, its a feature. It's one of the big selling points. If you don't like micro, you might be playing the wrong game.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I just want to zoom out

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        They actually have that AI in the game already. It's apparently not that hard to do, they just made a decision that units already attacking will prioritize attacking over getting out of the way. If you think differently and want your troops to get out of the way first and THEN attack, feel free to give them some commands.
                        Can I give a command at the beginning of the game that I always want them to move aside? I want to override the programmer's decision to limit my options on how my units should be have, and instead force me to click individual units to make a squad behave in a formation of my choosing.

                        To each his own, I guess. "Spam the gatherers" isn't just something you have to do, its actually a huge part of strategy in this game. Especially when you play zerg, who can't spam gatherers and combat units at the same time -- so which one are you gonna choose?
                        Like I said, a game mode, not a change to the game as a whole.

                        You can rotate it. I think its insert and delete keys now. It just doesn't stay that way after you release the hotkey. The engine is fully 3-D, its just that camera rotation is not really relevant to the primary gameplay, so its more of a cute quirk than a primary feature.
                        I'll check that out. For other games it is relevant to game play as it gives a much clearer view of terrain and physical space.

                        Um...hm...not sure what to say to you here. Micro isn't a bug in this game, its a feature. It's one of the big selling points. If you don't like micro, you might be playing the wrong game.
                        Micro was how players addressed the limitations of the original game engine in AI, graphics and interface. I know that it is an updated version of the original, but there have been other major changes as well:
                        • Air units don't stack on top of each other for long periods of time, they kind of bump each other out of the way to spread out.
                        • Introduction of long range sensor units (although the screen is so small they only show in the minimap).
                        • Ability to zoom in a little.
                        • Units that can change between air and ground attack but not both.
                        • New options for building units (like the Barrack upgrade to build two units at once).


                        There's no reason not to upgrade the user interface and camera except to appeal to those who cannot accept improvement to game interfaces. There could even be an option to only allow the zoom out on custom games (ok, I admit I haven't checked) and keep ranked games as it is now. Same for the unit options, if they want ranked ladders to be 'pure' and not allow those options I'm fine with that too.

                        There's a happy medium between tedious micro and console oversimplification. I want a place in the middle that addresses the unnecessary clicking of old and replaces it with additional unit behavior options and better camera controls. If those options are present in the custom games I'll be pleasantly surprised as the camera is currently the one thing that has kept me from purchasing the game, I can dislike but handle the rest.
                        |TG-6th|Snooggums

                        Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                        • #13
                          Re: I just want to zoom out

                          A lot of custom games address the camera issue if it's warrented. For instance most games shrink down the units and structures so you can see more from the get go. Other games like Runling Run allow you to zoom out even further.

                          I thought your idea of offense only Starcraft was actually a pretty good idea. I started working on a map with that in mind. I'm taking Blistering Sands and making it so that everyone only starts off with a base structure and trains units there. I've almost got the terran side command center done. I could probably address the camera there as well since the editor has some more control.

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                          • #14
                            Re: I just want to zoom out

                            Well, the editor is pretty powerful. I'm fairly certain someone can make a custom map you'll enjoy -- there's already several custom maps that let you skip building scvs and just get straight to the unit spamming (have you tried Nexus Wars?). I suppose you just won't like ladder mode much.

                            Back in SC1 I hardly ever played ladder mode, mostly because I sucked at it. Lost every game I tried. But now that I've learned how to handle myself reasonably well (far from the best, for sure, but I've got some idea of what I'm doing) I'm enjoying SC2 ladder mode a lot.

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                            • #15
                              Re: I just want to zoom out

                              Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                              Well, the editor is pretty powerful. I'm fairly certain someone can make a custom map you'll enjoy -- there's already several custom maps that let you skip building scvs and just get straight to the unit spamming (have you tried Nexus Wars?). I suppose you just won't like ladder mode much.

                              Back in SC1 I hardly ever played ladder mode, mostly because I sucked at it. Lost every game I tried. But now that I've learned how to handle myself reasonably well (far from the best, for sure, but I've got some idea of what I'm doing) I'm enjoying SC2 ladder mode a lot.
                              Yes, I could see if it would be possible to do an area control version where resources are gathered based on triggers instead of gathering but that would not be exactly what I'm going for. I don't want a billion resources at the start, I even noted I wanted to not spam units as I hate that even more. I want resource collection to be throttled, like a max per minute per main base or something similar. Heck, I liked it in SC1 on low resource maps where you had to gather fast but not overdo spending on gathering as you ran out of resources eventually. Maybe the official release maps being different versions of Big Game Hunters from SC1 is the problem.

                              Is there a way to set a builder to go back to harvesting after completing a building automatically?
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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