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  • [INFO] TvT Jitters

    I know they are out there. The people who hear the acronym TvT and turn and run. Im curious as to why people seem to have such apprehension when it comes to TvT. Personally, I love it. There is nothing like being shot and and hunted by someone on your level of intelligence that also makes mistakes like us. We play against bots almost exclusively and after a what seems to be a short lived TvT boom id like to know why it was short lived.

    So im making a poll to gather some info so that perhaps..mission makers can take that info and mould it into TvT missions that those who dread it might actually enjoy.
    18
    Playing against other players
    11.11%
    2
    Lack of predictability from the bots
    11.11%
    2
    The possibility of unfair play (cheating, exploiting, etc)
    11.11%
    2
    The time and complexity required to organize two teams
    5.56%
    1
    Lack of good TvT missions that keep players involved and having fun
    44.44%
    8
    Other (Please state why in thread)
    16.67%
    3
    sigpic


    Do you really want invincible bears running around raping your churches and burning your women?

    Intel i7 3930k @ 4.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 2x GTX 570 1gb, OCZ Vertex 3 120 gig SSD

  • #2
    Re: TvT Jitters

    I think with ArmA 3 we will see a more upbeat look at TvT. Things like the net code will much improved, the graphics will be playable on almost all systems without sacrificing fidelity, and not to mention on the mission makers side we will actually have a working 3D editor plus the power of Java. Look what PR and DayZ did. Although both are in opposite corners both have brought extremely valuable TvT/PvP experiences to the table. Also on a more TG note I think it's just we all like playing as a group on the same side, its that camaraderie will all enjoy.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Re: TvT Jitters

      Bots are a more difficult experience.

      Current ARMA Development Project: No Current Project

      "An infantryman needs a leader to be the standard against which he can judge all soldiers."

      Friend of |TG| Chief

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      • #4
        Re: TvT Jitters

        Originally posted by Dimitrius View Post
        Bots are a more difficult experience.
        I'm not a difficult experience. :D


        I actually quite enjoy TvT. My biggest problem is that I like "big" games, lots of players and assets all working together. In TVT, you've effectively got half as many players playing with you. It's mostly just a personal opinion, and like I said, I do enjoy playing it occasionally.

        ribbons_volunteer-class1.jpg
        "WARNING: Don't let me throw frags!"

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        • #5
          Re: TvT Jitters

          Over the years I've had my fill of TVT, DM, CTF, CTI etc etc.

          TvT breeds animosity always has done.

          I like arma with TG because of the camaraderie created by the cooperative game play.

          But some TVT now and again (more again than now) is okish :)


          Just my tuppence worth.
          The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd.

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          • #6
            Re: TvT Jitters

            Originally posted by Dimitrius View Post
            Bots are a more difficult experience.
            I dont see how that makes any sense and in the future id like it if you could expand on that as a 5 word sentence isnt really a huge contribution to the subject :). Typically bots are incredibly predictable and anyone with a watchful eye can know exactly what a bot is going to do next. Players are unpredictable and often play guerrilla style which makes for more variations in game play. Thus having a refreshing experience every time where as COOP and bots have infuriating redundancy along with their hackzors shooting.

            There is a fine line between a difficult experience and an impossible experience. I know its not about winning and what not but if you HONESTLY had to give a ratio of win to absolute disasters in COOP what would it be? If i had to give a number id say 1 win to every 10 disasters.

            I have to agree with Shoomfie though, we dont have a big enough community for combined ops TvT but on some nights we definitely have enough for a 12 vs 12 or something along those lines.
            sigpic


            Do you really want invincible bears running around raping your churches and burning your women?

            Intel i7 3930k @ 4.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 2x GTX 570 1gb, OCZ Vertex 3 120 gig SSD

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            • #7
              Re: TvT Jitters

              I'm sorry you were disappointed with the brevity of my response, it was right before bed time.
              Last edited by Dimitrius; 07-17-2012, 09:08 AM.

              Current ARMA Development Project: No Current Project

              "An infantryman needs a leader to be the standard against which he can judge all soldiers."

              Friend of |TG| Chief

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              • #8
                Re: TvT Jitters

                Originally posted by Dimitrius View Post
                Bots are a more difficult experience.
                As in they spot you from a km away and before you can spot them, you already have a man wounded from an AK. At least thats what I think you mean.
                Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends
                St. John 15:13

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                • #9
                  Re: TvT Jitters

                  I have been trying to build small scale unique TvTs for this community. IMO, a 12v12 game is quite boring in that kind of number if your just fighting over a capture zone. However, if you make one side attack in smaller number but better weapons versus a larger force with inferior weapons, the enjoyment goes up. Hence, all my TvTs are "stacked" because I find those more fun for these numbers. Plus, it provides for better longer game play.

                  I have a TvT Event coming up here within the next month or so, it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

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                  • #10
                    Re: TvT Jitters

                    I've got some interesting ideas for TvT not exactly tactical but good ice breakers and for learning some of the finer points of ArmA.

                    Also thanks Sector as I really think your objective oriented TvT's are way better than just offense/defense.
                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      Re: TvT Jitters

                      Originally posted by Sector_15504 View Post
                      I have been trying to build small scale unique TvTs for this community. IMO, a 12v12 game is quite boring in that kind of number if your just fighting over a capture zone. However, if you make one side attack in smaller number but better weapons versus a larger force with inferior weapons, the enjoyment goes up. Hence, all my TvTs are "stacked" because I find those more fun for these numbers. Plus, it provides for better longer game play.

                      I have a TvT Event coming up here within the next month or so, it will be interesting to see how it turns out.
                      This is probably the only type of TvT I usually like. Stacked missions usually don't end up with a feeling of who's got the best people. As BL1P said earlier in the thread, playing against other players will almost always lead to animosity, and the reason I love ARMA 2 so much is due to the fact that people have to work together to accomplish a goal, and the AI presents itself as a fair enough challenge for every goal. Once people start playing TvTs regularly, they'll do nothing but turn it into a game of numbers, and will rashly point out others' weaknesses while ignoring their strengths. If I wanted to play a numbers game, I'd rather play Sudoku.


                      |TG-Irr| Lonewolf80

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                      • #12
                        Re: TvT Jitters

                        To me TVT ends up with people hunting people and the mission becomes secondary to finding that butthead that is trying to do me in. I would rather play a well planned and executed mission that depends on teamwork. I have no idea how many kills I have in Arma, the journey to helping my team to complete the mission is what matters to me.

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                        • #13
                          Re: TvT Jitters

                          I don't dislike TvT, but i selected the 'not keeping players interested' one.

                          My only beef is No Respawn - but that applies to Coop as well. In most NR, you die, that's it for you until round end. If that is a long time, its not much fun if the player has limited time to play. We usually get 2-4 hours of good population during the week, and sporadic times on weekends. Who wants to die early on and sit around for half the time they are available to play?
                          Some thoughts about my point above:

                          You fear you're life more, so its more fun and realistic.
                          There is no better training experience than for players to value their life while playing missions TvT or COOP with No Respawn. But the result is the same, gaming time you managed to set aside is now lost opportunity if you get dead.
                          Other thoughts: mission makers have made great missions that have firm time windows (45m, 1hr, etc) making them a more reasonable choice. In fact, most No Respawn Coop missions don't provide such a luxury to the dead player.
                          That all said, we aren't the hastiest bunch during regular COOP, we take time to brief, organize, setup, etc etc. But I think many of us enjoy that aspect (to a degree. personally I think we can improve greatly on it, but i'm going offtopic) So I guess the entire 'time' argument is a weak one for not all, but most players.

                          I've got no worry about the player animosity aspect. I don't see it in other FPS (which is effectively what a TvT sorta is). I see it as more of a fun challenge, commander vs commander, tank crew vs tank crew, etc. There will always be some raw feeling after a defeat, no doubts. But long lasting animosity? If that's an issue for a player, nothing personal, but the player needs to reevaluate where and why they play IMO.

                          The possibility of unfair play is a scary thing to think about occuring on TG. I have to believe however that it would be found out pretty quick and the offenders gonzo. I just really don't see us getting into TvT so seriously that people even bother. I could be way wrong, and just might be. Can you tell I don't have much faith in people? lol.

                          Time complexity etc - We take waaaay longer in Coop. Empty argument in my opinion ;)

                          Lack of good missions - maybe? Some are coming from what I understand, but more importantly, our appetite for them isn't huge as a group. So, how many do we really need to satisfy our cravings? Does a mission maker want to spend the time on something that might only get played rarely? Is it fair to ask them to? Rhetorical questions i guess.

                          Lack of bot predictability - Its a highlight of TvT honestly. Personal preference, sure. But generally we come looking for milsimmy teamworky play, having live targets will certainly help that environment.


                          tl;dr: My only beef is No Respawn, TvT or Coop.
                          Q: How many members of Congress does it take to change a light bulb?
                          A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effort. Why do you hate freedom?!?

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                          • #14
                            Re: TvT Jitters

                            I"m not sure how to answer this one because there is such a negative bias in the question. In fairness I really see the pros & cons of both style of play and I think that a healthy ArmA diet may very well have some of each.

                            When I get to play ArmA when my life is really busy, I'll admit I prefer the Coop where I can jump in game with some friends & catch up using direct or such while we execute a well coordinated plan. When I get my fall/winter/spring obsession on, then I'll get as many types of scenarios as possible out of this sandbox game.

                            I guess if there was one thing that does get me sometimes with the TvT is the last few remaining opposing forces camping it out. It's hard not to because, in reality, if you had the time to move in before more forces could be expected to arrive to fend you off, you would use it for recon. So, perhaps this is where it can get a little gamey since the rest of the players want to see some pew pew and either way, it gets taxing on the server population.

                            But, hey, I'm all for TvT and I guess there is only one other thing that gets me. (I'm sure I've posted about this about a year ago when the subject came up....and the year before that....and...) That is, with TvT there is no real way to simulate a guarded objective where the defending team has been there for months on watch. Nothing has ever happened except a few pot shots last month. When this type of TvT starts, everyone is on full alert and we all know contact is imminent. So this is the kind of thing Coop can at least simulate a little better.

                            But the day Coop bots can see your plan, recognize a diversionary attack and counter with that kind of smarts....that will be a day I want you all on my side!

                            In short, mix it up. Love it. (no vote)
                            |TG-189th| Unkl
                            ArmA 3 Game Officer
                            Dean of Tactical Gamer University
                            189th Infantry Brigade Member
                            SUBMIT A RIBBON NOMINATION OR CONTACT AN ARMA ADMIN
                            "We quickly advance in the opposite direction and take cover in a house on the SW side of town." - BadStache

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