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  • Arty tachniques

    Hi guys,
    What's the technique for seting up the arty guns (M119, M109) deflection wise and elevation wise, to hit a rectangular area, or square area, and the technique for 'walking' the splashes to cover big area?

  • #2
    Re: Arty tachniques

    Hey! In Russia we have this technique: u drink 3 bottles vodka and u dont need more M119, deflections, elevations, rectangulars.. But all world in 'walkin' splashes! :madsmile:

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    • #3
      Re: Arty tachniques

      @Chichco, yeah that's funny but I kind a asked that question seriously. Are you military and what branch if yes?

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      • #4
        Not sure of the question here. Are you asking how to adjust fire onto a target?
        The technique used for walking a target on is called bracketing. Once you have line OT, you then start to bracket the target based off the observers observations.There's a great explanation here http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/vn/artillery.html


        Another way to cover a big area if you aren't bracketing(which is the best option if you want to destroy/kill fleeing enemy) is creeping fire, which is generally only used on danger close to push the enemy backwards from the observers/TIC(troops in contact) location.

        Hope that answers some of your question.
        sigpic

        Former Pathfinder
        Former ARMA Admin
        Former ARMA TGU instructor
        Former TGU Headmaster
        Current Noob
        Im also pretty bad at World of Tanks -

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        • #5
          Re: Arty tachniques

          @bolagnaise, for example a section has to be hit with dimensions 100 x 50 meters and rounds have to be put along it and 4 guns are available in the battery so 1st gun hits 0-30th meter, 2nd gun hits 30-60th meter and the 3rd gun hits 60-80th, 4th gun hits 80-100th meter mark - something like that - covering front line of troops for example or for whatever reason one might need to cover big areas. So what is done to the FDC calcuation wise or to the guns themselves (M119) to set up area coverage like that? Also how is it done in the M109 where each howitzer has it's own computer? Thanks and I hope it is clearer now. :)

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          • #6
            Re: Arty tachniques

            The only real 'technique' for doing it with the ACE Artillery is to pick out different spots, get the fire solutions, and then perform each mission individually. You could probably 'wing-it' and just adjust the elevation and deflection by a few mils. Currently, we can only get fire solutions for parallel sheafs of fire, so any other kind is very difficult.

            Also, to walk rounds over a target, you'll only be able to do that in the direction the gun is relative to the target. So if the gun is to the east, and you want to walk rounds from south to north, its going to be difficult. The way I figured out how to do it, is get a start point and an end point, get the solutions for each mission and ensure they have similar elevation requirements and have the same exact charge requirement. Then, subtract the start elevation from the end elevation and then divide that number by the number of rounds. This will give you the elevation change required after each shot to space the rounds evenly.

            or in other words:
            Where:
            • a = elevation of start point
            • b = elevation of end point
            • x = difference of elevation between each shot
            • n = number of rounds


            Formula:
            x = (a - b) / n

            Example:
            (1035 - 975) / 6 = 10, thus each shot must have an elevation drop of 10 mils.
            Also, if you are talking about the M109A6 Paladin, it'd be basically the same set-up, each gun would need to determine their own point of fire in the target area. Walking onto target would be done the same way, to my knowledge. Thing is, we don't use the M109A6 mod here, so there isn't much we could do to help you with that specifically.
            Blackpython / ZephyrDark
            Former 31st RECCE Member

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            • #7
              Re: Arty tachniques

              I love advanced arty. Glad there is interest.

              In response to Zepher/Black Python's excellent post: Why couldn't you walk both the deflection and the elevation? Just apply both using the formula.

              For instance, you have a deflection for the "start" point of the walk of let’s say 3000, and an elevation in mills of 800. The end point is 2955 def, and 790 mills. Couldn't you then say: Difference of DEF is 45, difference of elevation is 10, need common denominator for number of shots (or hit points at least, if not rounds as many can be fired at one point). Common denominator is 5, so divide difference of each by 5 and you get your change on each shot. Ok first shot at start, second shot at -9 deflection (45/5=9), -2 mills (10/5=2), and so on. Then again -9, and -2, and so on until you are at the end point.

              In the example given, you would be covering (with the deflection change) an area of (assuming range 7K) 49 meters left/right from guns perspective, and a small (indeterminable) amount in add/drop. 5 rounds (or points) spread across 50 meters seems like an OK walk, and it was completely against the angle of the gun. Problem would be physical gaps between shots might be too much, and time taken by gunner to make corrections might be a factor.

              Another option would be to fire some rounds at the specified 5 points I mentioned, but also fire some other ones in mid correction. They will be a little off of the straight line you are aiming for, but not tremendously, and would allow for a higher volume of fire despite the time needed to make 2 dimensional corrections by the gunner. A bit more shotgun, but it addresses the previous problems.
              It would require some more coordination/speed by the gunner and loader, and could not be done as quickly as 1 axis walking, but it seems like it can be done just the same…

              Summary: Wouldn't this allow walking fire on 2 axis, (def and elevation) thus avoiding the problem of being limited to walking along the guns angle of fire?

              I mean, I have not tried it, but the theory seems to work.
              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Arty tachniques

                Originally posted by Garthra View Post
                I love advanced arty. Glad there is interest.

                In response to Zepher/Black Python's excellent post: Why couldn't you walk both the deflection and the elevation? Just apply both using the formula.

                For instance, you have a deflection for the "start" point of the walk of let’s say 3000, and an elevation in mills of 800. The end point is 2955 def, and 790 mills. Couldn't you then say: Difference of DEF is 45, difference of elevation is 10, need common denominator for number of shots (or hit points at least, if not rounds as many can be fired at one point). Common denominator is 5, so divide difference of each by 5 and you get your change on each shot. Ok first shot at start, second shot at -9 deflection (45/5=9), -2 mills (10/5=2), and so on. Then again -9, and -2, and so on until you are at the end point.

                In the example given, you would be covering (with the deflection change) an area of (assuming range 7K) 49 meters left/right from guns perspective, and a small (indeterminable) amount in add/drop. 5 rounds (or points) spread across 50 meters seems like an OK walk, and it was completely against the angle of the gun. Problem would be physical gaps between shots might be too much, and time taken by gunner to make corrections might be a factor.

                Another option would be to fire some rounds at the specified 5 points I mentioned, but also fire some other ones in mid correction. They will be a little off of the straight line you are aiming for, but not tremendously, and would allow for a higher volume of fire despite the time needed to make 2 dimensional corrections by the gunner. A bit more shotgun, but it addresses the previous problems.
                It would require some more coordination/speed by the gunner and loader, and could not be done as quickly as 1 axis walking, but it seems like it can be done just the same…

                Summary: Wouldn't this allow walking fire on 2 axis, (def and elevation) thus avoiding the problem of being limited to walking along the guns angle of fire?

                I mean, I have not tried it, but the theory seems to work.
                Well if you want to walk in a straight line, no it would not work. Remember, the guns pivot in a circular motion. So the impact pattern would end up being an arc, not a line. The rounds would be evenly spaces, but not in a linear spacing.
                Blackpython / ZephyrDark
                Former 31st RECCE Member

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Arty tachniques

                  Ok, so not perfectly linar, but it would get you a spread between the two points right?

                  I did a preliminary test and found it to be effective. (Took a straight road at a diagonal from gun, and a starting and ending point, and from Bl1p's observation it went pretty straight up the road.) But this is only one test and could be a fluke. I will do more tests to confirm the spacing of the hits in the future.
                  Last edited by Garthra; 08-29-2012, 07:05 AM.
                  The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Arty tachniques

                    My earlier post was incorrect, and BlackPython was right. Simply finding midpoints (essentially applying his formula to both axis) does not result in a good walking fire in the desired direction at a good spacing. However, I believe I have found a way to actually do it, with even spacing. I tested it at a range of 9K and it worked well.

                    General Idea:
                    The key is the correction system used by the computer and the OT line. In essence, you create a fictional observer, with a fictional OT line that is exactly perpendicular to the line you want to walk the fire in. Then you simply do a series of say 5 or so corrections which are all “right X amount” or “left X” where X is the desired space between rounds and so on. Alternatively, you could create the observer looking from exactly the Mills direction you want, in which case the correction would be "Add X." This is probably easier and better for the FCO, as there is less math. It obviously works the same either way. This results in a perfectly straight line of fire.


                    How to Apply It:
                    The FO gives the FCO the start coordinates of the walk, and either 1) the end coordinates of the walk, or 2) the mills direction the fire is to walk, and the distance it is to walk. The second one is preferred, as it makes the FCOs job easier, and results in a faster fire mission. If the FO gives only coordinates, then FCO has to mark these two coordinates on the map and use maptools to find the mills angle of a line between them. Once the mills angle is found, the FTO subtracts 1600 mills (or adds 1600) to get an OT line that is perpendicular to the desired line of walking fire. He then enters in the start coordinates of the barrage into the computer and gets a firing solution.

                    The FCO should then give his traditional orders to the gun crew, with the following change, he should note that this is WALKING FIRE, and advise the loader of the number of rounds to be shot in total during the walk. This puts the gunner on alert it is time for his A game.

                    While the crew sets the initial solution into the gun and preps rounds, the FCO is doing “corrections” off of the fictional OT line, with the desired spacing. This will give the FCO a series of missions that are closely grouped going perpendicular to the OT line (assuming that's how you setup the OT line, but again, OT line matching walking fire line is probably easier, and you would then use "Add X." Once the gun is set for the first shot, and all ammo prepared, the FCO needs to give the gunner the series of fire solutions. I am not sure what the most efficient way to do this is, but my guess would be to have the gunner write all of them down on his pad of paper. The required changes should be small. Once everyone is ready, the barrage can begin, with the gunner making the changes and checking them off his list as he goes.

                    The result should be perfectly walked fire in the direction that is desired, with the spacing desired.

                    Difficulties, problems, and sources of error:
                    Gunner skill and speed. This plan requires a gunner who is able to repeatedly swiftly and accurately change the gun settings, traverse it back on target / re-level it and fire. Speed is key, but accuracy must be maintained.

                    Loading Speed and Comms: The gunner may not be able to have good comms with the loader if he is constantly getting new coordinates from the FCO. So they cannot do the normal "loaded" / "fired" / "loaded" calls to eachother. The solution to this is the loader loading constantly. (constantly trying to load). This will mean the gunner is free to fire the second he is ready, and no communication is needed, leaving coms open for FCO and gunner.

                    Error due to altitude shift: The gun crew and FO must be vigilant for altitude shifts along the line of walking fire. These will need to be computed into the corrections by the FCO, as failure to do so will cause errors. The map sill have to be used for this, and it is not exact, so there will likely be some error in hilly areas.

                    Time to get multiple solutions: It will take a moment for the FCO to get multiple solutions (even using simply corrections). It will take even more time to accurately inform the gunner of the several fire solutions, and for the gunner to confirm the solutions he has received.
                    I have not yet determined the optimal method for doing this. One idea, instead of the gunner writing down and confirming each solution, the FCO can simply state each new solution right after the previous one is fired. Then gunner then enters what he hears, confirms it is correct once he enters it, and with confirmation fires. It will jam up the radio for the crew a bit, but will cut out time for the gunner writing it down. The downside is this means the gunner has to listen as opposed to just read, which might be faster. Then again, listening he does not have to look away from his screen. As I said, not sure which solution to this issue is optimal.

                    Error in finding correct Mill line: Finding the exactly desired mill line from the start target to the end target is difficult. Happily exact precision is likely not necessary, and the maptools will probably be sufficient. Ideally if the FO is looking straight down the line he or she means to walk the fire, he or she could take an exact mills direction with his or her Vector.




                    So what do you think everyone? (especially BP) From my tests this worked fine, and the issues that I saw I have noted above.
                    Last edited by Garthra; 08-29-2012, 03:21 PM. Reason: corrections and adding one sentence
                    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

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