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ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

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  • ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

    Numero One:

    If you found yourself in the following situation, where would it make sense to setup a casualty collection and control point?

    Friendly squad (Gold) has taken heavy casualties after assualting an enemy technical in 0925. Gold only has two shooters and they are in a tough spot. Enemy has been coming from the N, E, and W. Your squad (Juno) is responding to their situation. The enemy is persistent, probing from all angles, its imperative Juno be moved to a safer location where the medical team trailing Juno can be brought up to treat the wounded.

    Use the map below and provide a grid reference you believe makes the most sense to setup for the medics to save the men from Gold!
    (Your squad is coming in from the south. Red arrows indicate axis of advance opfor have been using)

    I'm more interested in where you pick rather than how you would position you men -obviously they are related though. Feel free to be brief or detailed, but start with the grid for the defensive point!
    Let me know why you picked that point. What are its advantages? Disadvantages? What went into making your decision?
    We are using the game of ARMA as reference, reality in game is always different from what might make sense IRL.

    Last edited by ThirdSin; 09-25-2012, 12:17 AM. Reason: words....
    Q: How many members of Congress does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effort. Why do you hate freedom?!?

  • #2
    Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

    08,24. Inside the building, first floor, out of LOS of doorway. Have the two shooters cover that door (map shows no others) and you are ready to treat.
    Also, it minimizes movement of the casualties, which would be a slow and dangerous proccess given enemy fire from 3 sides. The buildings with walls to the West (02,23, and 03,27) are both possible but require carrying or dragging the casualties a much longer distance, including a 4 way
    intersection under 3 way enemy fire.

    Finally, the technical, assuming it is disabled, is already setup to cover the medics moving wounded into 08,24. Just have one man get on it and suppress until it is out of ammo. Its position near the door is also a convient marker for incoming friendies ("We are in the building with a door next to the technical!") Once the wounded are in, everyone piles in and 2 people watch the door.
    As long as they don't have armor or air support, you should be safe in there, as 2 people covering 1 door is about as safe as Arma gets.

    The downside is trailing forces have to move a bit further, and risk taking more fire, but it is better to ask them to do that then try to drag (slowly) wounded men through that same risky terrain.

    Vehicles could be a problem, but unless they level the building, you are OK.
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"


    • #3
      Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

      Without being in that crappy spot and judging with a clear head and not being shot at, take this with a fine grain of salt.

      Also, based on this being Arma and ArmA AI, this is how I would have played this in game

      Coming in from the south, I would have immediately sealed one side of the alley, choosing 0625. After planting a good sealing force, I would have tasked the rest of my squad to cover and assist medical units with getting down players inside hard cover at 0824. Assuming that went well with little to no casualties, I would have them get on the 3rd floor providing cover to the north and east. I would then order the seal squad to move to 0426 to provide cover for the door to the building with downed units. Hold and repel attack.

      Again, this me looking down at this and I SERIOUSLY doubt I would be able to see that in the fog of war.


      • #4
        Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

        I would choose an alternative then sitting in a position where there is a significant enemy force attacking a single squad with multiple casualties. If the techie is still usable then I would have the wounded loaded onto it and have it driven back to a waiting transport vehicle. Once all wounded are taken care of I would have the remaining troops retreat and find new path of attack. There is no point in holding a defensive position when we don't need to or have the resources to defend against an unknown strength force.


        • #5
          Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

          1st opinion:
          - car is still usable and the enemy in North and East are still about 150-(more)m away
          - Smoke 10/25, 03/25 and 055/228
          - Gold puts cassies in car
          - Juno starts fireing all they have in direction west, same time they're falling back to 03-04/29
          - Gold (covered by smoke) drives to 05/29
          - Gold-Juno -> immidiate Exfiltration to last Safepoint or last CCP set by CO or Platoon Medic

          2nd opinion:
          - car is destroyed, heavy contact from all sides towards Juno.
          - smoke at: 10/25, 03/25 and 055/228 -- 2 smoke nates at every pos.
          - Gold brings cassies into house at 08/24
          - Juno, covered by smoke moves from south to new CCP in multi-floor-building
          - send last prayers to heaven and shoot.... (chance that all will survive depends on strength and count of enemy forces)


          • #6
            Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

            To me, I see this as a rather simple solution. We need to have more "theorycrafting" like this.


            First and foremost, everyone should know their roles when it comes to casualty care. Step 1 is always, always, always "win the firefight". That goes for everyone, medics included. For this reason, I want to maximise my sectors of fire to guarantee the safety of the remaining Gold element and the QRF.

            Advantages for the area I selected are:
            Excellent SOF, good concealment (if not cover from buildings), everyone's back is covered by someone else, and movement is ultimately minimized.

            Lengthy initial movement, demanding communications necessary (training probably needed), no real escape routes.

            This is the legend so you can get an idea of what I'm about to detail. This may be somewhat lengthy. For the purposes of this scenario, 1 (Red) is the medic. Since Juno element, the QRF, is already west of Gold with good cover and concealment to the east and north thanks to buildings 1 and 3, my first objective is to gain fire superiority by splitting my men up and covering Gold. The reason I didn't choose building 2, despite being the undoubtedly popular choice, is because the second-floor balcony is absolutely 100% uncoverable by people on the ground. If EIF at range pick a man off the roof, who will care for him and how will he get down without being exposed to more fire?

            Step 1: Establish SOF, win the firefight.

            Immediately call for emergency evac for both Juno AND Gold. Orange (7)'s first action should be to drag the body nearest him behind B2 to cover himself and the casualty from any further fire from the north. 7 should at the same time take a position to cover the east, deploying smoke to conceal himself and his casualties due to the serious lack of cover in the area. Brown (6) should be covering 7 to the west, also deploying smoke across the intersection, effectively securing (by having a gun pointed in that direction) -- or at least concealing -- the only two avenues of approach to the casualties for Gold.

            Yellow (5) should be the first to move out, using LBrown (4) to cover his movement to B4. 5 will take a position south of B4 and cover 7's N/NE. Despite being exposed, he won't be staying there long and won't have much choice anyway. 4 will remain in position to cover the space between B1/B2 while Blue (3) takes a position opposite 4 to secure the eventual path that Gold will need to take. Green (2) will cover the W by taking a position south of B3, and Red (1) will move between 3 and 4 to take a position to further help out 7 (by either facing E or N/NE). As you can see, in such a setup -- at least in THEORY -- we have established a modicum of stability, and even if 1, 6, and 7 all go down, all other units are in positions to retreat and/or regroup rapidly. By the time the bodies are moved to a position that LBrown and Blue can cover them, the smoke will have started to fade. The downed technical will also provide SOME cover and concealment.

            After setting that up, it's all about who moves when.
            STEP 2: Casualty Care

            Blue moves first, covered by LBrown. Then Blue moves. Yellow moves S of B4 to take a position covering N. Then green moves S of B3 to take a position covering E. Red/Orange/Brown are busy taking care of the wounded. Nothing is getting in that area, except grenades if the enemy is sneaky enough to use them.

            Once casualties are stablised/dealt with, we move onto evac. Again, it's all about who moves when.
            STEP 3: Getting the injured out.

            Blue moves, covered by LBrown, to take LBrown's position. LBrown moves to cover the E while at the same time, Green moves to cover the W in the alley. Yellow moves last, next to LBrown, to cover the N a little better than Blue can. Assuming no EIF have moved south of B4, Orange/Brown/Red should be able to move under cover to the the evac waiting on the E/W ASR S of B3/B4.

            And, once again, it's all about who moves when.
            STEP 4: Getting out entirely.

            Yellow deploys smoke to the N. Blue moves first, since yellow has him covered. He takes up a position to cover where Yellow was just covering. Yellow moves, covered by all units, to cover any flanking attempts on LBrown and Green.

            Green merely moves S a metre or two and he's covered to the E by B4, and LBrown still has the technical providing a degree of cover/concealment, so the move simultaneously to the south between B3/B4 and extract.

            If it all seems a little hard to follow, keep referencing the picture prior to get an idea of who is looking where during movements. Fireteam-level movement is, in my opinion, one of TG's biggest weaknesses, and individual movement (movement with a buddy, or one other person, as opposed to a FT of 3-4 rather) is something that needs to be used more frequently.

            That's just my two cents.


            • #7
              Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

              Call in the Apaches for cover

              My name: Adept a skilled or proficient person Abyss a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity
              So I'm a very skilled deep hole :D


              • #8
                Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                I'd pull back east and eliminate enemies first, pop whatever smoke I had with me, cover my buddy as he triaged the injured and moved them into the stairwell/second floor. Continuing smoke until all were either in or contact happened. From the doorway, I would be able to cover one approach and keep the injured behind me.

                That's my take.

                Current ARMA Development Project: No Current Project

                "An infantryman needs a leader to be the standard against which he can judge all soldiers."

                Friend of |TG| Chief


                • #9
                  Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                  Considering the enemy is well known for being great shots, and also coming from where you least expect them, I wouldn't put my guns against theirs in any situation where luck is strictly involved. I would pull the friendlies into an area with very limited openings (a room with one single door would work best) and then quickly setup security, within the room. I know my men can take out a combatant quickly when placed face-to-face in a doorway, it's when they are tasked with watching a sector (such as an alleyway with multiple openings, or something of the sort, where they must address targets at any distance or multiple positions) that the enemy will win. Therefore, minimize casualties and funnel them all into a choke point.

                  Essentially the 300 effect.

                  I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein


                  • #10
                    Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                    Agreed Top and I would smoke one of the other compounds to add to the confusion. With only 2 guns in the fight you are looking for a choke point and it needs to be close range in that scenario as you have multiple aggressors coming at you from different angles.

                    Prep wise I would make sure you redistribute ammo from the wounded, maybe drop some mags on the ground in front of the shooters and throw grenades as soon as you know they are medium range, just spam them to hinder their advance and thin their numbers. As the grenades run out start picking up the mags. Make sure your choke point is covered at all times and keep aiming to push them back from it, 'down the corridor' at all times, switching from burst/full auto when its mega close to aimed single shots as you push them away. Communicate, call your reloads, put em down.


                    • #11
                      Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                      Com this is BL1P where do you want to set up the CCCP ?

                      Problem solved :)
                      The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd.


                      • #12
                        Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                        This is a tough one.

                        Depending on the situation, I would likely also try to move the casualties to 0329 - it offers one of the most defensible positions, and getting them away from where the enemy attacking should be priority. However, depending on the attacking forces strength and frequency, this may prove difficult. 0329 is ~1000 meters from the location of where the technical was disabled, and assuming it is not drivable, it would be very slow for 7 squad members to carry 4 casualties through the middle of a firefight. This would be a judgement call somewhat based upon the skill level and competency of my squad members. As Fuzzywig pointed out in his diagrams, MOUT combat such as this would not be easy (lots of corners), and my own experience with TG in Fallujah (Screw my Life) makes me feel that it would have a high likelihood of failure. One other downside to hiding within a walled compound is exposure to grenades, if the enemy has identified your position.

                        Alternately, the NE building could be used as for CCP - walls provide excellent cover and the roof provides protection from grenades. If it has ground-floor windows, I would avoid it like the plague. However, if the windows are very high up or they do not have a view in from the surrounding approaches, it may work in a pinch instead. I would keep the majority of my squad in the alleyway at 1025 & 0725 providing cover to the NE & W, not inside the building - you don't want enemies danger close to your medic. Smoke could help to conceal the squad from long-range fire.

                        If you had more BLUFOR units to help provide cover, say outside the cluster of buildings, moving the casualties out to 0329 would be much more feasible.
                        "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."


                        • #13
                          Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                          Since the theory is with respect to Arma, this is an easy one.

                          CCP: 0623, interior, level 1.

                          Gold to HP, w/ AORs respective to their current choke, E and W.

                          Juno to fire and maneuver into Gold's LOC with 2 dedicated to moving the WIA indoors and stabilizing.

                          Gold/Juno then disperse to immediate corner sectors in proximity to structure as cover arcs to support med's approach from the south.

                          Once all green, normal bounding egressing south or as directed by command intent/mission.

                          Fortunately, ARMA assaulting AI exposed themselves on corners and don't throw grenades thru windows. So hold the slices and don't clip thru walls and they all come home safe. :D
                          I run my $#@! new school style with old school roots...


                          • #14
                            Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                            Numero One: Action

                            This is how I would handle the situation.

                            Action 1: Setup security between casualties and intended rendevous point.
                            - There are four casualties. My best plan of action is to move two at a time, over two trips. This balances the need to have perimeter shooters but also reduces trips needed (instead of moving one person at a time, for example).
                            I've chosen 0329 as my preferred location. There is protected space here within 50m. The space is enough for all four casualties, medical team and a compliment to work in a protected area. The current position obviously is an untennable one, just ask Gold! So staying put is not an option since the position has proven too exposed or vulnerable.
                            - Since all corners are covered, a spare man has been assigned to escort the laden men.

                            Action 2: Move casualties from current position to RP (0326).

                            Action 3: Collapse the perimter around new RP, maximizing protection in hardened positions.
                            -Where two men share a position, High/low (crouched/prone, standing) positions are used to increase protection.
                            Q: How many members of Congress does it take to change a light bulb?
                            A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its conditions are improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are delusional spin from the liberal media. That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effort. Why do you hate freedom?!?


                            • #15
                              Re: ThirdSin asks you...(Scenario)

                              Sounds good, but dont you think that this an A-grade-Example?
                              What I mean, Im not expecting something from somebody else, what I can't do, so: Would this take way too much time imgame?
                              When we look at how long we sometimes need to take to reorganize us when we hit an unexpacted appearence?(watch blips video "one bridge too far" We all felt safe until someone at the bridge screamed 'contact!', when I remember how idea-empty my mind was at this time... horrible! So I send my Squad over the bridge in their death :( )




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