Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ARMA II - Air Power?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • ARMA II - Air Power?

    (If this thread is in the wrong place please tell me where it should go [and why] before you just move it so I know better next time!)

    I have a number of questions about the airpower available in ARMA II and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. I've watched several hours of YouTube Tutorial Videos (some posted by members of TG) and read several documents outlining how the aircraft are supposed to work, as well as numerous forum threads detailing specific (or lack thereof) flight dynamics for the aircraft in ARMA II, but alas I still have more questions.

    1) Has anyone edited the FOV for a triple monitor flight setup, and if so, what did you set it to?

    2) What is the difference between the Army A-10 and the USMC A-10 in game? [The both seem to have the same loadouts?]

    3) Is there any sort of braking at all once I am on the ground? [I have read several forum threads about this talking specifically about the analogue braking system, which I will confess to not fully understanding. I setup a simple test mission with a vehicle support building so I could land and re-arm when I ran out of ammo, but I can never taxi effectively to the building because I end up having to ram my throttle to full to get it to respond.]

    4) How does the GBU Hud display work? [It seems like switching the GBU's without a laser lock to target tries to come up with something like the CCIP from Falcon 4.0 AF, but if that's the case, it's horribly inaccurate.]

    5) In addition to third person mode, is it possible to get full screen view without the cockpit blocking parts of it? [My bezels are bad enough, I don't need additional cockpit bars limiting my view!]

    6) What IS the stall speed for the A-10? [Sometimes the numbers tick red at 90 speed and sometimes at 150 speed, this seems to be related to my turn rates?]

    7) What are the different countermeasure modes?

    8) Is it possible to setup a single player mission with an AI unit on the ground lasing a target so I can actually see what that setup looks like as a pilot?

  • #2
    Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

    Hi I would like to answet your questions to the best of my knowledge
    (If this thread is in the wrong place please tell me where it should go [and why] before you just move it so I know better next time!)

    I have a number of questions about the airpower available in ARMA II and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. I've watched several hours of YouTube Tutorial Videos (some posted by members of TG) and read several documents outlining how the aircraft are supposed to work, as well as numerous forum threads detailing specific (or lack thereof) flight dynamics for the aircraft in ARMA II, but alas I still have more questions.


    3) Yes there is an analoge braking you can find it under controls under aircraft, you have your normal throttle and below that you have your controls for analoge, I use all 4 of them to fly makes flying more efficient when it is required

    4) Yea the dumb delivery system is a little hard to get use to, you only have a symbol that tells you if your aircraft is leveled after that is just practice doing dumb drop, recommend you use dives to deliver bombs, without CCRP its really difficult.

    5) In my experience there is no other option of view besides the third and first

    6) Yes turn rates are the problems with stalling speed, the tighter the turns get the more speed you lose and faster thats why it flashes red at 90, if you make a wider turn you will still lose speed but not at a high level and the stall speed wil be 150.

    7) When you press ctrl+r you select the modes which are single,burst,auto

    8) Yes it is possible recommend you ask Garthra about that one he is the only one that Ive seen using this type of missions for training purposes



    Hope that some of the questions you asked have been answered

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

      That's great! Thanks! I really wasn't sure about the CCRP, the HUD display that comes up matches it pretty closely. I can dumb drop with about 50% accuracy, but the spread on what I hit when I miss is so ridiculously high, I'm in extreme danger of dropping on friendlies.

      Regarding #7: Are these modes different in their affect on the game? I can understand the utility in hitting the button once, and having six chaff and flares pop out, but more specifically which mode goes with which situation? Does one mode have a better effect over say, a MANPAD compared to a static AA? I'm assuming most of the missile launches I have seen in game are from MANPADs or static AA because I haven't seen a mobile or armored vehicle yet that was armed with missiles.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

        In regards to question 6:

        When air is flowing over an airfoil, we'll call this the wing, it is forced to move faster over the top of the wing than it does over the bottom of the wing. According to Bernoulli's principle: as the velocity of a liquid increases the pressure decreases. Air is, in fact, a liquid.

        The air moving faster above the wing has a lower pressure than the air below the wing. Since we know that liquids move from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure, we can surmise that the high pressure area under the wing attempts to move upward into the low pressure area above the wing. This upward movement is blocked by the wing and the upward moving high pressure area forces the wing up, thus creating lift.

        Now for the important part. When you create lift in straight and level flight, the lift vector is always 90 degrees to the surface of the wing. When you bank the aircraft, the lift vector has to move in order for it to remain perpendicular to the airfoil. This increases the stall speed of the wing.

        What is a stall? A stall is a condition in which an aircraft or airfoil experiences an interruption of airflow resulting in loss of lift and a tendency to drop. When we bank an aircraft we set up a relative lift vector between the vertical portion of lift (the part keeping you in the air) and the horizontal portion of lift (the part pulling you through the turn).

        [IMG]www.flightsimbooks.com/flightsimhandbook/45-1.jpg[/IMG]

        Because the total, or relative, lift vector is the combination of the vertical and horizontal lift vectors, there is less upward motion, causing the aircraft to require more wind over the wings to sustain flight. Should you reduce the amount of bank, your stall speed will decrease. Using flaps also increases lift, but their use also creates drag, which reduces the total thrusting force produced.

        Everything has a trade-off in aviation.

        One good thing about modern military aircraft is that their thrust-to-weight ration is so high that, most of he time, you can power through a stall.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

          Originally posted by ASharpe
          50% accuracy, but the spread on what I hit when I miss is so ridiculously high, I'm in extreme danger of dropping on friendlies.
          To minimize this risk I usually approach the target from over the Friendly Units or run an attack track that is parallel to them.



          So the yellow is the path you take to approach and deliver the ordnance minimizing the risk to Blufor units.

          On the other hand dropping ordnance in a line between them and the enemy is just as fun.. As close to them as possible.

          Regarding #7: Are these modes different in their affect on the game? I can understand the utility in hitting the button once, and having six chaff and flares pop out, but more specifically which mode goes with which situation? Does one mode have a better effect over say, a MANPAD compared to a static AA? I'm assuming most of the missile launches I have seen in game are from MANPADs or static AA because I haven't seen a mobile or armored vehicle yet that was armed with missiles.

          There are a few different methods but the best is early interpenetration of what is happening. You hear the lock deploy a high density flare chaff pack to give you time to maneuver and minimize threat. On the other hand its also how long will you be on station for and what are your needs as far as what will you be flying over on the way back to base if there's AA on the way and your lingering over the AO and losing all of your chaff you will be in a bit of a sticky situation. In reality it comes from experience as how you fly with there being no set methodology that needs to be followed.
          Attached Files




          Comment


          • #6
            Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

            Originally posted by OPS View Post
            To minimize this risk I usually approach the target from over the Friendly Units or run an attack track that is parallel to them.

            So the yellow is the path you take to approach and deliver the ordnance minimizing the risk to Blufor units.

            On the other hand dropping ordnance in a line between them and the enemy is just as fun.. As close to them as possible.
            Hehe, that just sounds cruel. Hopefully there will not be many situations where I am forced to dumb drop with Blue forces near the engagement zone. I have yet to see an air wing on the TG Alpha Server operate without ground operators who are equipped with Laser Designation (though they may not have any idea how to use them).

            I am getting much better with my strafing, practicing on columns of tanks in narrows passes and valleys and I can generally keep most of my fire concentrated to the center of the road, and knock out 4 or 5 out of 6 tanks in a single pass with the A-10 main cannon, so it's actually safer for me to strafe then to drop bombs (unless they are guided).

            Originally posted by OPS View Post
            There are a few different methods but the best is early interpenetration of what is happening. You hear the lock deploy a high density flare chaff pack to give you time to maneuver and minimize threat. On the other hand its also how long will you be on station for and what are your needs as far as what will you be flying over on the way back to base if there's AA on the way and your lingering over the AO and losing all of your chaff you will be in a bit of a sticky situation. In reality it comes from experience as how you fly with there being no set methodology that needs to be followed.
            Yeah, regarding what I mentioned earlier about Airops on the server, my experience is that the planes get to a Bingo or Winchester state well before they run out of chaff. When I have been practicing, I have been popping four sets of countermeasures after every pass in the A-10, and again, I am usually well out of missiles and bullets well before I run out of countermeasures. And it's probably not necessary to pop after every drop, it's just part of my practice to make sure I don't get a very unwelcome surprise up my six.

            Originally posted by optopopit View Post

            One good thing about modern military aircraft is that their thrust-to-weight ration is so high that, most of he time, you can power through a stall.
            I asked this question specifically because my understanding of ARMA II's flight mechanics is such that it does not model this correctly, this is clearly evident by the fact that any sort of banked turn at all causes the aircraft to completely stall out and free fall from the position it stalled out in. This is a highly inaccurate flight model. In addition, during a stall or a free fall, the operating surfaces of the aircraft completely cease to function (IE: No rudder or aileron control) making a recovery from a stall absolutely impossible. Proponents of ARMA II try to argue that aircraft are not the point of the game so who cares if they are modeled correctly? To which I would respond, why put them in the game if you're going to put them in wrong? It's an awful awful flight model, and the rest of your notes about aerodynamic air flow (which I already knew, but thanks for the refresher!) are unfortunately completely irrelevant when considering flight in ARMA II because the developers chose to completely ignore them.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

              I had a post all ready to go here and somehow the system ate it.

              Originally posted by optopopit View Post
              In regards to question 6:
              One good thing about modern military aircraft is that their thrust-to-weight ration is so high that, most of he time, you can power through a stall.
              I understood all of this already, but thanks for the refresher! Unfortunately from my readings it seems that ARMA II does not model the aviation models correctly (even for their Helicoptors). Allegedly, ARMA III is supposed to be using the Take on Two Helicopter Flight Model to correct some of these issues. This readily apparent in ARMA II by the complete lack of operation in any of the aircraft control surfaces during a stall - you cannot, for example, nose over to regain airspeed, nor does the airplane default to that sort of maneuver, as most airplanes are designed to do. It should be virtually impossible with the engines on full thrust for a military aircraft to fall straight out of the sky (while still at full power, mind you) but this is the rule, rather then the exception in ARMA II.

              Long time proponents of ARMA II insist that, as a First Person shooter, the flight model is irrelevant. But in that case, why model the vehicles correctly and not make them all hover craft? Or simply provide the airplanes with an over abundance of tracking missiles instead of mixing the loadout? If you are not going to do something right - then in my opinion, you should not bother doing it at all. There is in fact some evidence that they have already done this - I have a hard time accepting that an F-16 flies with around 26~ countermeasure sets, but the A-10 operates with 120?

              Originally posted by OPS View Post
              To minimize this risk I usually approach the target from over the Friendly Units or run an attack track that is parallel to them.



              So the yellow is the path you take to approach and deliver the ordnance minimizing the risk to Blufor units.

              On the other hand dropping ordnance in a line between them and the enemy is just as fun.. As close to them as possible.
              lol, That's just cruel! I have yet to see Air Ops conducted on the server without a properly equipped ground force using Laser Designators to guide them in, so perhaps this won't be a problem. My strafing is actually better then my dumb drops, I can hit a column of vehicles on a road and knock them out in two passes without any of my rounds reaching more then a few meters off either side of the road.

              Originally posted by OPS View Post
              There are a few different methods but the best is early interpenetration of what is happening. You hear the lock deploy a high density flare chaff pack to give you time to maneuver and minimize threat. On the other hand its also how long will you be on station for and what are your needs as far as what will you be flying over on the way back to base if there's AA on the way and your lingering over the AO and losing all of your chaff you will be in a bit of a sticky situation. In reality it comes from experience as how you fly with there being no set methodology that needs to be followed.
              Thus far, my experiences have been that an aircraft will reach a Winchester or Bingo state well before he runs out of countermeasures and flares. I have set up a short little target run mission for myself (it's really crappy and I have no idea how to make it better) in the mission editor and I am usually shot out of ammo well before I reach the state where I am out of countermeasures. Offline, I drop four CMs after every pass to make sure I get clear. There are around 20 takes in various groups in my current target pattern, and I usually get in around 15 passes before I am Winchester or Bingo, and at that point I still have a handful of CM's left. I suppose if there are hostiles during the egress that could be a problem, we saw that situation last night, in fact, with both hostile ground forces and a hostile hind orbiting between Crossroads and the AO.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                I really see no difference what its important is the countermeasure that you are using

                For thermal lock on you use the flares to prevent lock on

                For radar lock on you use chaff to prevent lock on

                I really dont look much in to it because most vehicles have the both countermeasures.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                  Quick question of my own: Is there any way I can change FOV just for one aircraft? The issue is in the blackhawk I cant see my attitude indicator without moving my head in game (I dont have trackIR) and it is important for me to be able to use that in the event of of an autorotation, among other things. It is REALLY close to being in view, so if I could just barely move the FOV.... I noticed I could do this with the numpad -, but I would have to hold it down and that isnt feasible.
                  May you be covered in the dust of your Rabbi.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                    Originally posted by SoloDaNINJA View Post
                    Quick question of my own: Is there any way I can change FOV just for one aircraft? The issue is in the blackhawk I cant see my attitude indicator without moving my head in game (I dont have trackIR) and it is important for me to be able to use that in the event of of an autorotation, among other things. It is REALLY close to being in view, so if I could just barely move the FOV.... I noticed I could do this with the numpad -, but I would have to hold it down and that isnt feasible.
                    double tap alt and then move mouse as desired.




                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                      Originally posted by OPS View Post
                      double tap alt and then move mouse as desired.
                      But that locks my mouse in the free look mode, when my objective is to be able to lock my view in one direction then being able to use my mouse to fly the aircraft without my view reverting to straight forward
                      May you be covered in the dust of your Rabbi.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                        Okay, got my first CAS Run in last night, for about two and half hours we pounded the same AO while the enemy just kept bum rushing it, it was pretty awesome. I lost count of how many sorties I ran, but it did raise some interesting questions.

                        9) Liquid mentioned different CM's for different circumstances, this I understand but it seems the game handles this for me, always dispensing both Chaff and Flares?

                        10) What's the appropriate landing speed? (My plane seems to stall out below 200 on landing but my throttle settings make it dicey to get the speed just right - sensitivity may not be high enough yet, still adjusting!)

                        11) What's an appropriate taxi speed? (I think around 20 but again, that's one of those numbers my plane just doesn't want to stay at!)

                        12) How much of a threat is (non-missile) AAA to an A-10? (I took a helluva lot of it without taking much damage - in fact, it seemed like I got shot up more then my plane did.)
                        13) Anyone else using TrackIR ever have issues with 'looking up' not working properly?

                        14) Someone asked an interesting question about the flaps today - should they be up or down for take off, and up or down for landing? (Lately I have been dropping my flaps (and even my gear) to force my Airspeed down during strafing attacks - this gives me much more ToT by decreasing my speed rapidly!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                          Originally posted by ASharpe View Post
                          9) Liquid mentioned different CM's for different circumstances, this I understand but it seems the game handles this for me, always dispensing both Chaff and Flares?

                          10) What's the appropriate landing speed? (My plane seems to stall out below 200 on landing but my throttle settings make it dicey to get the speed just right - sensitivity may not be high enough yet, still adjusting!)

                          11) What's an appropriate taxi speed? (I think around 20 but again, that's one of those numbers my plane just doesn't want to stay at!)

                          12) How much of a threat is (non-missile) AAA to an A-10? (I took a helluva lot of it without taking much damage - in fact, it seemed like I got shot up more then my plane did.)
                          13) Anyone else using TrackIR ever have issues with 'looking up' not working properly?

                          14) Someone asked an interesting question about the flaps today - should they be up or down for take off, and up or down for landing? (Lately I have been dropping my flaps (and even my gear) to force my Airspeed down during strafing attacks - this gives me much more ToT by decreasing my speed rapidly!)
                          9) There is really no need to worry about that as far a it will launch in groups and not singularly

                          10) The speed is anywhere between 150 and 199, this depends on the flaps and the damage to the plane generally a pitch up landing with some throttle will be sufficient.

                          11) Taxing comes with practice you need to throttle up in cycles to move to the ramp or takeoff .

                          12) Again depends on situation during take off is will shorten the roll out during landing more float and stability.

                          13) I have had that only because the sensor connection was interrupted.

                          14) Never ever use the gear to slow your aircraft in combat this generally is a horrible idea flaps and air brakes are a better resource.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                            I have never flown fixed wing in arma, but I am a fixed wing pilot in real life so I can answer some of your questions:

                            11: That should be fine, you would probably go slower in real life, but there isnt really any traffic to worry about on Arma 2.

                            10 and 14 combined: I cannot say what the optimal landing speed for an A-10 is, but I do know that it is much lower than 200, and the reason you cant get there without stalling is flaps.

                            Flaps are used in both takeoff in landing, though its not often you would use full flaps on takeoff. In real life, flaps are not used as speed brakes, though they do increase drag so they do slow you down.

                            IRL they create some drag, but more importantly they create lift which is crucial for takeoff and landing. This makes your stall speed much slower, and enables you to have shorter takeoff's and landing. Deploy full flaps on final approach and you should be able to land her much slower and with a steeper angle of attack until it comes time to flare. IF arma decided to model the aircraft realistically, lowering the flaps at too high of an airspeed would damage the wing. For instance, in the airplane that I own (Cessna 182), it is not safe to have flaps lowered at speeds any greater than 100 knots.

                            You SHOULD have speedbrakes which DO function as you have been using flaps, to slow the airplane during strafing runs, but I dont know if Arma has these. And I highly doubt they have the flaps working realistically.

                            I know that probably didnt help much, but I guess the main thing to take away from my realism rant is that yes, using flaps will help you with your landings a lot :)
                            May you be covered in the dust of your Rabbi.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: ARMA II - Air Power?

                              Originally posted by optopopit View Post
                              In regards to question 6:

                              When air is flowing.....
                              This is a great post, but unfortunately completely useless when talking about ARMA II. I knew most of this already, but a refreshed is always a good thing, however, ARMA does not model it's lift properly in the game.

                              Inpaticular, this part here:

                              Originally posted by optopopit View Post
                              One good thing about modern military aircraft is that their thrust-to-weight ration is so high that, most of he time, you can power through a stall.
                              If you want a demonstration of this, send your aircraft into a banking turn until you stall out. Your airplane will end up slowing so much that it can potentially reach negative speeds - and your air plane will freeze in the air and fall STRAIGHT down. As the engines are still at full thrust this should not be the case, even without the lift from the wings the thrust from the engines should be enough to push the plane in a direction. It should be possible, for this reason, to recover from a stall.

                              However, in addition to this, they fail to model the control surfaces correctly. At any kind of a stall speed the control surfaces completely cease to function - something that is simply not true. At the point at which you reach zero speed and start to fall, nosing over with the rudder should still have SOME affect on the airplane, but it does not, at all. Nor do any of the other controls once you have stalled out. Again, this makes stall recovery virtually impossible in ARMA II.

                              Originally posted by OPS View Post
                              To minimize this risk I usually approach the target from over the Friendly Units or run an attack track that is parallel to them.
                              I have been encouraging allies on the server to mark their positions with colored smoke whenever possible. Sometimes "We're in a building by the road!" is not enough to identify where they are. However, this is usually the first thing I throw out of my gear back so I can't really complain if other people are doing the same thing...

                              Originally posted by OPS View Post
                              On the other hand dropping ordnance in a line between them and the enemy is just as fun.. As close to them as possible.
                              That sounds unnecessarily cruel (and also highly amusing...). I wouldn't waste an A-10 asset for something like that though, hard enough to unlock them on the Alpha Server. :/

                              Originally posted by OPS View Post
                              There are a few different methods but the best is early interpenetration of what is happening. You hear the lock deploy a high density flare chaff pack to give you time to maneuver and minimize threat. On the other hand its also how long will you be on station for and what are your needs as far as what will you be flying over on the way back to base if there's AA on the way and your lingering over the AO and losing all of your chaff you will be in a bit of a sticky situation. In reality it comes from experience as how you fly with there being no set methodology that needs to be followed.
                              Thus far, I have yet to run out of C/Ms before I hit Winchester and need to RB. And that's with dropping four or five after every pass over a target to ensure I don't get a missile up the butt. This also brings me to my next question:

                              15) Do MANPAD weapons have a warning tone when they lock on?

                              And that brings up some more points about specific weapons and their capabilities:

                              16) What is the range on a Sidewinder? (Conjecture suggests its around 9000m?)

                              17) What is the effective range on a Maverick?

                              18) What is the sweep of the Radar, exactly? (I have noticed I can only lock onto targets more or less in front of me, but that those targets will STAY locked even when they move behind me [where I couldn't lock onto them to begin with]. This seems like some pretty inconsistent behavior from my radar. At least twice now, I have been unable to lock a Helicopter that was directly in front of me...but also operating at a higher or lower altitude, which has led me to believe there may be a 'box' in front of my craft that is lockable. )

                              And this brings up more questions:

                              19) What are 'orange' targets in the radar? (I'm assuming these are 'presumed hostile)

                              20) What are 'grey' targets in the radar - and why can I sometimes (but not always) lock onto them?

                              21) Are there air brakes other then the analogue brakes? (Which I have noticed do work in flight, but I have disabled because I am slightly unsure how my configuration should be set up to use them.)

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X