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CSAR and CAS at TG

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  • CSAR and CAS at TG

    Hi all. I wanted to start this thread for a few reasons. In general I'm working on my helo piloting [lack of] skills and hoping to establish an environment in which to train, learn from others, cooperate, and pilot in combat. Particularly I'd love for TG to be able to support the same level of teamwork and proficiency in this area as it does in infantry combat. I think we may be able to achieve this without compromising the focus on or fun of infantry level combat. I'd love to have your thoughts on the subject. Here are some of my ideas on how we may accomplish this. These are all the things I can think of, not necessarily what I'm proposing. Please criticize and provide your own suggestions.

    1. Maybe develop a "curriculum" of training materials. I don't believe we should be writing our own--there is a lot of great material out there, particularly the ShackTac guide and videos. It would be nice to have a library of some of the tactics and guidelines that work well for us and that TG particularly encourages.
    2. Maybe develop some offline training exercises/recommendations (i.e. suggested things to practice for the pilot in training, could even be missions)
    3. Maybe dedicate 1 night a week to a helo centric mission type on one of the servers. I got the idea from some of the vanilla Support missions. They're probably a pretty good training exercise by themselves, but seem to be too much for my compy to host on its own. It would give the pilots an opportunity to train in a cooperative (co-pilots, coordination with other helos, maybe a jtac, etc) multiplayer environment while not putting everyone's fun in jeopardy by attempting to transport real players before they can avoid crashing. In general I think the biggest barrier to having good helo-combined-arms gameplay is the lack of opportunity to practice, and lack of trust in the pilots not to just waste their asset with poor strategy. I think this could go a long way to removing that barrier.
    4. Maybe form some kind of group. Either a separate group to join and train with or maybe some kind of "wings" badge you get from training could help develop a sub-community of pilots and establish trust with the infantry leaders and mission planers.
    5. I know someone is working on objectives for the insurgency mission. It's probably possible for this to eventually include isolated CSAR/CAS missions. That could provide the opportunity for pilots to practice their trade in the real world with minimal affect on the primary mission.

    Anyway those are all my thoughts so far. What do you think? Could this be valuable to the community?

  • #2
    Re: CSAR and CAS at TG

    Good to see you taking an active interest in the TG community. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put together an excellent post and I look forward to seeing you on the server soon.

    I can only speak for my own point of view and I'm glad to give it but a good deal of your post really is about the ARMA user experience and likely will be addressed by the TG Game Officer and or the admin team. They really are the architects of the overall ARMA experience at TacticalGamer. Of course the community has a voice, an important voice, and the Admin team does an excellent job listening to those voices, so to be sure you'll see a discussion on this.

    I love flying helos in ARMA. In ARMA I days we played some persistent missions and I flew transport happily for hours on end so I'm with you on the desire and the role. I can still see Sahrani with my eyes closed.

    From my point of view we don't have enough players on regularly to really need an airwing. As it is now we are seeing usually 4 or 5 players typically with some nights spiking up to 20 or even more players. Of late the latter have been more frequent but not with any regularity. Most nights like I said we have a handful of players just barely filling the roles we need on the ground. So...IMHO we don't have enough players to support combined air/ground ops...maybe a transport pilot but certainly not enough for a combined arms helo assault

    But I like your idea of doing a helo centric mission once a week. Perhaps this is an opportunity to work with the mission developers at TG or on your own to create a helo centric mission for the server list.
    ARMA Admin (retired)
    Pathfinder-Spartan 5


    • #3
      Re: CSAR and CAS at TG

      Could not have worded that better [MENTION=6851]Grunt 70[/MENTION].

      To echo Grunt's words. Thank you for taking the time and your interest in the TG ARMA community. We certainly need more of those.

      As Grunt said in the previous thread. The most direct method is to find one of the Admins, or to be blunt Unkl (ARMA GO) and have a chat.
      Unkl and his team, are to my experience very accommodating and welcome any input from our players. From recently joined player to dedicated die-hard players.
      Alternatively, post a thread on the CAA (Contact An Admin) forum within the ARMA forum. Which will be like a direct postbox to the ARMA admin team.

      I personally like variety, and variety in missions. It could from when the mission time is set at to out-of-the-box scenarios which are immensely fun.

      Thanks again

      TGU Instructor Irregulars TG Pathfinder

      Former TGU Dean Former ARMA Admin Former Irregulars Officer
      "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." - Dag Hammarskjold


      • #4
        Re: CSAR and CAS at TG

        See those former admins are some great peeps. Now, I've forwarded this request direct to the TGU Instructor we have who is best fitted for this reply. When I want info on how flight mechanics work in Arma I ask Rudolf. His forum name is Woesterudolf, so don't let that trick you up. He is the 2IC (Second In Charge) of all things Arma and very knowledgeable in this area. We do have a bunch of players who all want to do the transport pilot role. A bunch more who want to do the CAS role. That is great.

        However, there is a catch. I'll spell it out right out loud, cuz I don't mind saying so. Squad X needs CAS. The squad leader asks for it from his embedded FO or he has to ask for it himself. So at that point, to do it right he has to organize a 6 liner request (that is an abridged version we used to teach in TGU). This requires that he indicates to the pilot the preferred approach vector (direction to come at the target with any hope of seeing it/hitting it), the target coordinates, the target specifics, the type of CAS required (GBU, strafing run, unguided missiles, etc...), the friendly positions and what color smoke and what side of that smoke is safe to fire upon without getting friendlies in the attack.

        By the time the FO gets that together, the pilot assimilates all that info, the squad leader is confident that the ground troops know what is going on and to not advance beyond a specified usually is another 4 mins until the attack commences. In that time, you have had players on the ground guarding a 360 around the Forward Observer (FO) and Squad Leader (SL) for 4 + 2 + 4 minutes = 10 minutes.

        You might think that is well worth it. 10 minutes of holding ground, where you may have engaged enemies and have been observed is a really really long time in the game.

        There are a lot of mission designed around having support elements such as CAS, transport, logistics (resupply), and even armoured support. However, these elements are a back seat to our current aims at TG Arma, to get really good infantry based teamwork at the forefront. There is so much good we do, and to be honest, so much to do better that we really should spend our efforts there. Just because that is where we will get more players involved in the kind of teamwork we excel at. The wait times for artillery (much a I love our custom artillery solutions) or CAS or transport or resupply just seem to make the regular old infantry COMBAT seem more like "hurry up and wait". Now, if you want a mil-sim where you "hurry up and wait". Good on you. I probably have oodles more patience in this regard than most...but I also see the effect of that as...
        • pilots go afk cuz they waited around for 20 mins with no call and when the call comes they might be back in another 5 mins
        • infantry grounds to a halt, gets flanked and wiped out because they turtle (the 20min wait for everyone to get revived should be an "your all dead and restart" in my books as it is better gameplay for all)
        • sometimes you just get wiped out - live with that fact and learn to do better
        • it comes down to what is your role, where does your FT want you, where does the SL want the FTL to put you, what are the other squads doing in support
        • this is my big point, we don't role as 2 squads - that is a LOT of players - we don't need Commanders, we need squad leaders that lead from the front (do as I do) not Platoon leaders with 10 players

        So I went off on a tangent. But I hope it explains a little of what I see. Yes, support elements and really good Combined Arms scenarios would be great. We just should learn to walk together before we run with all this other stuff. It doesn't change the fact that almost every single player is an infantryman first and foremost. If you haven't mastered that yet, then put your attention to it because until you understand that element you might as well play a single player flight sim.

        But...not to sound too gloomy. I do love to play transport helo pilot too. Not too bad at it. I don't do attack choppers, UAV attacks or that because it just doesn't help the majority player experience. Like on the Insurgency server. CAS gets bored, clears the grids ahead of the 10 players playing as infantry. What experience do they have. It's four words. "Hurry Up And Wait" then move in and 10 guys clear out the last man.

        No disrespect intended, and yes it will be cool when we get there. It just honestly, there is more important things to tackle first.

        1. Don't walk in front of your team members.
        2. Don't order your Fireteam (FT) to cross your Base of Fire element's (BOF) line of sight.
        3. Fire and maneuver. Win the firefight before dealing with casualties.
        4. If you use vehicle supports, be really clear on directions so the driver/gunner know where the next safe hull down position is.
        5. Maintain 360 without needing to be told. That means, stagger your resupply amongst buddy teams. Your AR is always the last to move when moving from a halt.
        6. Call out your sightings and contacts - know the difference - use the 3 D's (direction, distance, description) in that order!!
        7. Know your Axis of Arc (direction of movement) and use the Directional method to call out contacts (Contact Left, Contact Half-Left, Contact Front) don't give those dang compass directions that take 20 seconds for you compass to settle down when talking to your FT.
        8. FTL's don't give compass directions to another team. Their point of view is different. You must use either grids, or even a clock-ray method if you are at least fully aware of each other team's positions.

        I could write a lot here. So I'm stopping now.

        Anywho, I do like the idea of running Air Cavalry missions. I do love combined arms. Don't mis-read me pls. It's just more difficult to pull off than it appears. Even more teamwork, command level coms are required. It just takes more time and adjustment to both the infantry and the pilots to make work well.

        Anyway, expect some TGU content in the next month. I've been trying to schedule more Basic Infanty, Advanced Infantry and Leadership courses. I'll always start at the base with Basic Infantry first. If there is no takers then I'm not likely to schedule the next level until after that. So please make time for it if you haven't had that course in a while.

        Rudolf, or someone else from TGU may be adding more info on specific air components soon but Basic Infantry will be a prerequisite.

        Thank you for this thread!
        |TG-189th| Unkl
        TG PrimerArmA Game Officer189th Infantry Brigade Former Irregular
        Submit a Ribbon Nomination!
        "this is on par with groups you have to join to get the quality of gameplay and i really enjoyed it" - random dude
        "Remember when the threat has spotted you, smoke first then bring the explosive rounds to bear. When the threat has not spotted you its bang first and smoke after to extract." - Wicks


        • #5
          Re: CSAR and CAS at TG

          Planning to adress this prob got some time later. However for now take a look at TGU library
          TG-189ᵀᴴ ArmaXO TGU Instructor


          • #6
            Re: CSAR and CAS at TG

            Originally posted by Unkl View Post
            • pilots go afk cuz they waited around for 20 mins with no call and when the call comes they might be back in another 5 mins
            hey man, flyin makes me hungry.

            Having pilots do CAP in my experience is a good balance. keeps the infantry safe from those scary birds and keeps the pilots busy, while keeping ground operations moving along quite smoothly.
            Yink | Vanilla Pilot | Killer of Stirling | CS GOD | Projects Team




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