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  • Real M1A1 load?

    Just wondering if anyone knows what is the real load out of an M1A1 (or possibly A2) in afghan or iraq at present? I realize that they always have to be ready for armoured threats but im finding the current m1a1 loads unrealistic in the new desert maps.

    Currently its 30 AP, 6 HE and 4 Canister. The AP is useless against infantry unless an almost direct hit is made. In real life i suppose hitting a building next to a target would cause shrapnel damage from the bricks but not in arma. I also realize that M1's dont fire willy nilly destroying random peoples houses either. But i thought that the emphasis in insurgent operations would be on anti personal as opposed to anti armour.

    Id like to stress that i am not claiming that the above is the case. I DONT KNOW WHAT THE LOAD OUT IS. There just my thoughts. What im after is someone to clarify the actual load and if we could change the missions to represent that.

    Torah!
    Nihility

  • #2
    Re: Real M1A1 load?

    Originally posted by Soupy_Norman View Post
    Just wondering if anyone knows what is the real load out of an M1A1 (or possibly A2) in afghan or iraq at present? I realize that they always have to be ready for armoured threats but im finding the current m1a1 loads unrealistic in the new desert maps.

    Currently its 30 AP, 6 HE and 4 Canister. The AP is useless against infantry unless an almost direct hit is made. In real life i suppose hitting a building next to a target would cause shrapnel damage from the bricks but not in arma. I also realize that M1's dont fire willy nilly destroying random peoples houses either. But i thought that the emphasis in insurgent operations would be on anti personal as opposed to anti armour.

    Id like to stress that i am not claiming that the above is the case. I DONT KNOW WHAT THE LOAD OUT IS. There just my thoughts. What im after is someone to clarify the actual load and if we could change the missions to represent that.

    Torah!
    For a great book on the M1A1 in general check out T-72 Ural vs M1A1 by Steven Zaloga.

    Needless to say, SABOT makes nearly no fragmentation - its essentially a metal dart that looks like a javelin (The sporting object, not the FGM-148) and passes clean through most objects. During the Gulf Wars the DU rounds went through one side of the t-72s, created a shower of extremely high velocity particles inside the hull (killing the crew and often penetrating the magazine, causing a catastrophic explosion) and then (usually) passed out the other side.

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    • #3
      Re: Real M1A1 load?

      I'm sure the ammunition load outs (and actual number of M1's currently deployed) would differ drastically if one were to compare that of the beginning of the 2003 Invasion of Iraq and the present state.

      I'm no expert, but I would imagine that M1's during 2003 were loaded out to deal with any potential enemy armor threats they would face. I would also imagine that now, fighting an insurgent force rather than a vehicle-equipped army, any M1's still deployed would be loaded out more appropriately to deal with the (generally speaking) guerrilla-infantry/unarmored vehicle threat.

      Maybe someone with more of a background can chime in.

      Also, from a mission editing perspective, it's relatively simple to change/add/remove the ammo load outs of vehicles to fit the role it's playing in game.

      | |

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      • #4
        Re: Real M1A1 load?

        Americans using HESH rounds yet?


        If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.
        -Carl Von Clausewitz



        'The Great Game' -Blog on War in Afghanistan:

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        • #5
          Re: Real M1A1 load?

          Default M1A1 loadout is as follows:

          27 -- M829A2 APFSDS (12 ready, 12 semi-ready, 3 stowed)
          13 -- M830A1 MPAT (5 ready, 5 semi-ready, 3 stowed)
          4 -- 2800 round belts for the M240C coaxial
          10 -- 100 round ammo boxes for the commander's M2HB

          However, all the evidence I can find points to individual tank crews loading different mixes of canister and HEAT ordnance to deal specifically with anti-infantry roles. So, load-out would vary wildly depending on who you were talking to and what their specific role is.

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          • #6
            Re: Real M1A1 load?

            12 400 x 7.62-mm, 1 000 x 12.7-mm cartridges
            40 Main Gun Rounds

            Main Gun rounds are mission/command dependant. Generally main gun rounds are divided equally, also Scope, there is no such thing as "semi ready". lol. All main gun rounds are stowed unless actually being loaded into the breach.

            [unit][squadl][command2]

            KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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            • #7
              Re: Real M1A1 load?

              Not from what I've read, Dredge. Yes, all the rounds are stowed, but there are two different racks with differing ease of access.

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              • #8
                Re: Real M1A1 load?

                Well slap me silly. I have never seen the "semi-ready" box before. The rounds have always been stowed everytime I rode in the Tank....maybe they didnt trust me to not play with them...

                Normally, again from what I have actually seen, the rounds stayed stowed, and when the main gun needed to be reloaded the loader had to open the slider door, get the round, let the door close, load, fire, repeat. There is a safety feature on the tank that wont allow the main gun to fire until the slider door is shut. I have never seen any other way done...maybe my tank crews are just ahead of, or behind, the game.

                Either way, very interesting scope. Good find.

                [unit][squadl][command2]

                KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                • #9
                  Re: Real M1A1 load?

                  So the crew ultimatly gets to pick the round load? Hmmm, interesting.

                  But a word to mission makers: dont give 30 Ap rounds on missions that are largely inf based. Its silly :p

                  Cheers guys.
                  Nihility

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                  • #10
                    Re: Real M1A1 load?

                    Originally posted by Soupy_Norman View Post
                    So the crew ultimatly gets to pick the round load?
                    Not really. Its based on the mission and the TTP's for different units. The Tank Commander, however, does get to designate the round that the tank will fire. Here is something you should check out now that tanks and brads are about to start becoming more available in missions. These are the Army Tank commands for engaging targets. These are used to insure every member of the crew knows what is being shot and what its being shot at.




                    Tank commanders first command is "gunner heat tank". This tells the loader the type of ammunition and the gunner the type of target.

                    (Heat was the type of round used; a high explosive anti-tank shell).

                    The gunner would then call out "identified" when he locked onto the target with his sight.

                    The loader would call out "up" when the heat round was loaded in the main gun tube.

                    The tank commander would give the command: "fire".

                    The gunner would reply, "on the way" when he pulled the trigger and fired the round.

                    If the round hit the the target, the tank commander would say, "target cease fire".

                    The tank commander would than say, "driver move out".

                    All this must take place in seconds or the enemy tank will fire at you and you are dead!

                    [unit][squadl][command2]

                    KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Real M1A1 load?

                      Originally posted by Dredge View Post
                      Well slap me silly. I have never seen the "semi-ready" box before. The rounds have always been stowed everytime I rode in the Tank....maybe they didnt trust me to not play with them...
                      I don't mean to override your knowledge, Dredge -- for all I know, that page is just pure BS; you'd know better than I would!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Real M1A1 load?

                        Originally posted by Sc[ + ]pe View Post
                        I don't mean to override your knowledge, Dredge -- for all I know, that page is just pure BS; you'd know better than I would!
                        Oh not at all scope. I actually enjoy learning new things. I called my buddy at Ft. Hood, who is in fact a loader on a tank and he said that there is a ready box. He said normally for long engagements I/E multiple armor targets they load the ready box to fire in rapid succesion but other than that they stay stowed. You learn something new everyday. Thanks again. :D

                        [unit][squadl][command2]

                        KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Real M1A1 load?

                          To me it seems a lot of people mix up HEAT and HE or HE-Frag rounds a lot. HEAT isn't exactly designed for combating infantry since it's a shaped charge. HE or HE-Frag are the rounds designed for fighting against infantry targets. HEAT rounds penetrate the armour and release a glob of metal which bounces around inside of the tank which is supposed to kill the crew, HEAT doesn't make an explosion the size of an artillery shell.

                          HEAT rounds are designed for armoured targets which are typically APCs, IFVs, etc because a round such as the APFSDS would pass straight through a target like that (even ACE produces results like this, a bradley can survive a fair amount of APFSDS rounds before it goes into a critical state).

                          I'm not saying HEAT is entirely useless against infantry but it's MUCH weaker than most give it credit for in that situation.

                          Also, AFAIK M1Ax tanks don't use anti-infantry rounds (besides the canister rounds).

                          Damnit Blizzard, fix ZvT already >.<
                          In Soviet Russian, Arma admins are nice to you!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Real M1A1 load?

                            Originally posted by Pistolfied View Post
                            To me it seems a lot of people mix up HEAT and HE or HE-Frag rounds a lot. HEAT isn't exactly designed for combating infantry since it's a shaped charge. HE or HE-Frag are the rounds designed for fighting against infantry targets. HEAT rounds penetrate the armour and release a glob of metal which bounces around inside of the tank which is supposed to kill the crew, HEAT doesn't make an explosion the size of an artillery shell.

                            HEAT rounds are designed for armoured targets which are typically APCs, IFVs, etc because a round such as the APFSDS would pass straight through a target like that (even ACE produces results like this, a bradley can survive a fair amount of APFSDS rounds before it goes into a critical state).

                            I'm not saying HEAT is entirely useless against infantry but it's MUCH weaker than most give it credit for in that situation.

                            Also, AFAIK M1Ax tanks don't use anti-infantry rounds (besides the canister rounds).
                            That's a little misleading - while APFSDS *does* usually pass in and out of a target, it's not like it just pops a clean hole straight through and nothing else happens. After penetration parts of the dart splinter off and shoot into the hull, causing secondary penetrations of internal magazines and killing personnel. It's not like a cannonball bouncing around, its more like a storm of hyperfast uranium fragments. This is one of the main reasons why T-72s tend to catastrophically explode (often with their turrets popping off and flying 100 meters) - the ammunition is stowed throughout the chassis, and secondary explosions from a penetration of APFSDS tend to result in complete destruction of the vehicle.

                            The Abrams was designed to maximize crew survivability and rarely catastrophically explodes (regardless of what ARMA likes to make us believe). The vast majority of the ammunition is behind reinforced blast doors, and even in the case of a catastrophic penetration into the magazine, blast doors on the top of the turret automatically open to vent combusting gases. In the event of a fire or penetration of the hull, automatic halon fire control systems are deployed. Abrams are more often immobilized or disabled than destroyed (during the Gulf War I for example, 1 abrams was confirmed lost, and thousands of T-72s were killed).

                            HEAT can be effective against infantry in environments where the head can penetrate something solid - rocky sand etc. In ARMA II all environments are good for HEAT because the game doesn't calculate ground penetration, all ground is effectively like hitting a brick wall. A round will never fly into the ground and harmlessly detonate there, thus HEAT is good against infantry.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Real M1A1 load?

                              Someone sticky this thread. Most I've learned about tank rounds in a long time.
                              Last edited by Dirt_Diver; 01-20-2010, 11:02 PM. Reason: leaned to learned :)
                              || Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 @ 3.6GHz || BFG NVidia GeForce GTX 285 OCX || Sound Blaster X-Fi || 4 Gig OCZ Reaper DDR2 || Vista 32bit (sucks) ||

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