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Where's the cream filling!

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  • Where's the cream filling!

    Or in this case where's the TVT. Seems to be a major lack of it here sense I came back to arma 2. is it a lack of missions, general hatred of fighting live players. I've only been back a few weeks and am already tired of playing enhanced single player on our servers. Whats the feelings of the community on this?
    Last edited by socomseal93; 05-02-2010, 09:31 AM. Reason: sorry OCD moment with the misspelling of where :P

  • #2
    re: Where's the cream filling!

    Its probably because of the extra numbers needed to play TVT which is sad since i enjoy playing it especially those missions like the dam one by falcon.
    also,another problem (sometimes) may be is that you need two or more Co's and most the time it is difficult getting even one.
    To talk to me or just hurl Abuse my way get me on Xfire:Hashass1n






    I can't read, can't write, can't be an officer -NCO of the Vistula Uhlans Jan Pawlikowski

    Mute since the universe began

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    • #3
      re: Where's the cream filling!

      I know a significant amount of people that play here aren't that fond of TvT. In particular, a lot of the people that lead often aren't too crazy about it. Unfortunately, when I asked around for a while to see if I could make a TvT they'd like, I got mostly vague "well, it kind of sucks sometimes" answers and groans. The only real argument against TvT I can remember was from Zedic, who said he didn't like it too much because it became all about doing things fast to beat the other team, rather than doing things right.

      Personally I like TvT, but there's always the danger of killing the server when switching to one of these missions, as you never know how many people are going to disconnect. Some of the best moments I've had at TG were during TvT, when things like entire squads running into eachother without realizing it or a team coming up with a never-before-seen tactic happened. That's why it sucks when the "we've played TvT twice, let's do coop" argument is pulled out, and then the same coop mission is played five times in a row for the rest of the night, but that's what people want sometimes...

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      • #4
        re: Where's the cream filling!

        I am very fond of TVT and I have heard arguments from several players at TG that say TVT is to hard. Why you ask? They say because your playing players... So, in a nutshell, if these people can't win 100% of the time they don't have fun.


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        • #5
          Re: Where's the cream filling!

          I like Coop & TvT about the same. However, I do notice a lack of TvT being played and I wish we could play it almost as often as we play Coop. It's nice to mix things up and fight humans because they are less predictable than bots. Back in ArmA1 we had the same issue, people disliked TvT yet had never tried it but when they did try a quality TvT mission, they fell in love. My feeling is that before we can start playing full on TvT, we need to acclimate players to the TvT environment through Hybrid TvTs that mix elements of coop and TvT.
          |TG-73rd|Socomseal
          |TG-73rd Member| Former TG Irregular ArmA Platoon Leader| Former TG ArmA Admin XO| TG Pathfinder - Spartan 1 |TGU ArmA Instructor |Former TG-18th Member| |Former TG-1st Member|

          "Its easy to argue about issues from afar. But until you have experienced the issue first hand, you have not seen all the facts."

          Carver you will be cut off for a long time before reinforcements can reach you "I am the reinforcements the main force is only coming to bring me body bags and to clean up the mess Im about to make" - General Carver

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          • #6
            Re: Where's the cream filling!

            I personally don't really enjoy a lot of the TvT missions we have here. That's why I hope Project Reality can introduce a stable and teamwork-oriented TvT environment that has a good, established mission structure thats easy to understand and jump into.
            Aliases: ROD5RIG, CitizenAlias

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            • #7
              Re: Where's the cream filling!

              I personally prefer objective based TvT to Coop but I can understand that the change of gameplay is unwanted by some.
              How about trying out some unbalanced TvT : Players as the main force against the usual AI + lets say a few human snipers with access to weapon caches. This would make the gameplay much more challenging while introducing TvT to the more undecided players ;). Some sort of hybrid TvT for the future to make everyone happy ...

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              • #8
                Re: Where's the cream filling!

                Originally posted by ROD5RIG View Post
                ......I hope Project Reality can introduce a stable and teamwork-oriented TvT environment that has a good, established mission structure thats easy to understand and jump into.
                +1 ROD, my hopes exactly.

                |

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                • #9
                  Re: Where's the cream filling!

                  Beta made some fantastic TvT missions for ArmA1 (Obragon Gap, particularly) that I wouldn't mind remaking. The biggest, most concrete difference I've found with regards to commanding adversarial as opposed to cooperative games is that good-on-paper commanding will get your team annihilated. Once COs are willing to play a more loose and varied game with their troops, it'll be much easier and more inviting to take that slot.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Where's the cream filling!

                    Alot of people dont like tvt because its alot harder than coop. The level of play goes right up when in tvt....nothing beats a human opponent.
                    Nihility

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                    • #11
                      Re: Where's the cream filling!

                      the fluidity of the first-person mode in this game pales in comparison to BF2 engine. This makes close quarters clunky and rough, which makes tvt more fustrating to play IMO. It's subtle but what I think makes the tvt maps less prevalent.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Where's the cream filling!

                        Originally posted by ForGlory&Pain View Post
                        the fluidity of the first-person mode in this game pales in comparison to BF2 engine. This makes close quarters clunky and rough, which makes tvt more fustrating to play IMO. It's subtle but what I think makes the tvt maps less prevalent.
                        Wow, Im suprised to hear you say that!
                        Do the rest of you all agree ?

                        |

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                        • #13
                          Re: Where's the cream filling!

                          I'm surprised to hear people say tvt is "too hard". But here is my 2 cents, and coming from a command perspective (being one of those people that *always* commands when he plays), cic the "CO's don't like it, harder, whatever":

                          1. First off, I love TvT. I <3 playing it, and I <3 commanding it even more. People are just always going to be more dynamic than AI (less so with the heavy usage of UPSMon, but still...).

                          2. Our TvT map ratio vs. player ratio is way off. Anyone remember those really simple, small TvT's we had around christmas time? 15vs15, and the objectives were small and non-elaborate. Both sides spawn within 500m of each other, and its infantry tactics only. We need more of these. We just *dont* have the 40+ players required for a lot of the TVT's on the server. Sure, we can play them, but they get boring fast because the objectives are not small. We end up playing the "everyone wait around for 20 minutes while these 2 guys play tag".

                          3. TVT missions should be A. Time-Objective based, or B. death-ratio based. E.g. blufor and opfor need to take obj1 and hold it for 10 minutes. *OR*, a team loses after losing like, 70% of their units. This helps 2 fold. 1. it makes players *want* to find and kill eachother, and 2. it makes them *think*, it doesn't just become BF2 style run-and-gun. This helps force good tactics, but still keep it paced.

                          4. We just dont have JIP/respawn tvt missions. Because of this, they just *dont* seed or keep players on the server. Example:
                          most of the time we play TVT, its after a good 2 hour coop and we have seeded the server up to, say, 35 players. Within 30 minutes of kicking up a TVT, I guarantee you we've lost at least 5 players. I'd say 70% of the time, by the end of the TVT, we've cut server population in half. This just sucks; people get bored of being a crow.

                          Now to the crux of the issue I wanted to talk about, TVT commanding:

                          Personally, I sometimes *dont* enjoy playing TVT, but for a different reason. I command *alot*. And when I command, usually the same people (TFP or not) volunteer to be my SL's. A lot of the time, the more experience players/players I command will slot up in my squads too. I'm trying to say this without sounding egotistical - but in a nutshell, when I command, I tend to get more regular/experienced players.

                          Why is this bad? It puts the other team at an instant disadvantage. When I have 2-3 SL's I've spent hours and hours leading, our unit cohesion is overall just better. They anticipate my commands, and they are used to the kind of initiative I expect from my SL's. This is *great* for coop, don't get me wrong, it makes games run smoothly. But in TVT, it just makes it harder for whoever is not a regular commander to step up.

                          And to re-iterate, my #1 complaint with the TVT's we have:
                          They kill server populations. Fast.

                          |TG-TFP|Jaynus
                          Task Force Proteus


                          The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but Im just not close enough to get the job done."

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                          • #14
                            Re: Where's the cream filling!

                            in real terms, even with headbob off, there is still way to much body and gun movement, reaction fire is more luck than twitch skill. Raising sights is slower and the FOV transition is more jarring. Jerky suppression effects on the character model, instead of visual and post-gun accuracy are more realistic, but make it easier on ambushers, and getting ambushed means instadeath-not much fun. Stance changes are also more clunky and stamina effects are very aggressive, restricting movement.

                            I love the arma2 engine for a lot of combined-arms and realism aspects, but I do miss more standard FPS engines twitch-friendly CQB.

                            As for maps, community reliance on "commanders" is more a reflection on our aversion (at all costs) to lone-wolfing friendly maps and loose structures. I wouldn't mind a couple deathmatch maps that don't worry about being to realistic. Additionally, I think players should enjoy and encourage a few maps that don't try to be VBS sims but simply kill or be killed. No story arc, some less realistic kit layouts, just fast fun.

                            Just my perspective.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Where's the cream filling!

                              Originally posted by Hashassin View Post
                              Its probably because of the extra numbers needed to play TVT which is sad since i enjoy playing it especially those missions like the dam one by falcon.
                              also,another problem (sometimes) may be is that you need two or more Co's and most the time it is difficult getting even one.
                              I've heard this twice now and I don't think its the problem. The issue is like jaynus said with have the large 20v20 ore 30v30 tvt missions on the server. Imagine the swat style mission we have on the server on the server with real players. Something like that can be easily done with say 4v4, its just up to the mission designers to mold there missions to a smaller group of people. I think a good size tvt mission for the numbers I've seen on the server would be say 10v10, and a smaller area of operation, say fighting over one or two town in celle or chenarus.

                              The arguments that it might be harder are a half truth. Yeah real player is going to think and react making him a more dangerous opponent than the AI. On the same hand a real player is going to think and react, which means hes going to royally screw something up sometimes.

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