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  • When to "call it"

    I was going to post this directly on the admin forum but felt it might be better here because my view of the situations may not have been accurate. I have been on the server many times when missions have been called and didn't have a problem with it because I felt the number of remaining players were too low to even attempt completing a mission. Recently I have been alive in squads with a good number of people remaining, we were still functional as a unit and the missions were ended.

    Two nights ago I was playing a mission (Militant was our squad lead so he may offer a second opinion on this) and our squad was doing what I consider an excellent job assaulting our objective. The mission had run a long time because we were having issues re-arming some tanks but we were playing very smart and had great squad (only one casualty when it was all said and done). I am not sure how many other people were alive on the server, but I felt that we had a chance to complete the mission. We had plenty of man power in our squad and AT for the remaining armor. I might be wrong on that assumption but I felt we had a fighting chance. If I am not mistaken the word got out that we were going to call the mission and someone started blowing up HMV's at the HQ. I would like someone to confirm this because I am not sure that is accurate and it might of played a part in the admins decision to call it. Regardless we had a full squad, were playing very smart and the mission was called before our squad had a chance to try and complete the mission or suffer major losses. We were not given a fighting chance.
    Last night I was in a reserve squad (Charlie) that was called up to fight towards the end of an assault on an objective. The mission was lead by Pie (I think) and included 3 Bradleys and 2 Tanks assaulting a town. We had been waiting patiently with the command element until we were needed. Many of the other squad members were dead and we were called into the fight. We were at almost full capacity and again doing what I consider a good job, albeit we were the JIP group. It was my understanding that we had lost most of our command element and numbers in the other squads were down if not completely gone. But our squad was still functioning in an organized manner with our Bradley vehicle fully operational. Then someone says over TS that what's left of command is going to make a suicide run on the objective and we are going to call it. A minute later the mission was ended.

    I know on many occasions to maintain traffic on the server it might be prudent to call a mission. This might have been the case, I don't know. I might also be the only one that was a little upset that these missions were called before we had a chance to die. I am not complaining because I don't know what all the facts were when the decision was made and I am not an admin. But it is something that has happened twice in situations where in my opinion the remaining players might have had a chance to complete the mission.

    I am putting this thread up here because I wanted some feedback form others playing on those two missions as to why they might have been called. Secondly, I thought the community might be better served if we knew when it is and is not a good time to call a mission. |TG-Irr|seg[TDev]
    Last edited by seg[TDev]; 06-15-2010, 03:32 PM.

  • #2
    Re: When to "call it"

    IN regards to last nights mission, the reason I would assume it was called was because there were only 6 people left alive, whilst there were 20+ dead. When a mission dwindles down to that low a size, it would be impossible for that few to finish it. On a week night, you need to balance how long your server population will be there, considering that most people work in the morning. While you have the most people on the server you want to keep everyone involved, not just a few - lest you will kill off the server population. YOu want to pick and play missions that are suited to how many players are on, and how long they will stay on the server on a week night.




    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. " - Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Re: When to "call it"

      A balance must be found between serving the majority and making sure we dont restart missions just because we sustain heavy casualties. If we dont then it tends towards more arcadish behaviour - "we dont have to try to hard, if it goes wrong we will restart/play somethign else". Also people have to learn how to deal with problems.
      "Can't waste a day when the night brings a hearse
      So make a move and plead the fifth 'cause you can't plead the first."

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      • #4
        Re: When to "call it"

        Seg[TDev] hits a very good point and there's much that can be said about this.

        For the first mission mentioned, I would say that we did have the proper AT assets to hit the enemy vehicles and complete the mission.We had Javs and AT4's around,it was just a matter of getting a line of fire on the enemy vehicles on the hilly terrain,and not get shot while trying to shoot them.Our squad was doing an excellent job and I had a lot of fun in that mission.The way we moved and engaged with the Humvees still stands out in my mind and we probably could have completed the job, there's no doubt in my mind of that,we had the means and our squad had the will.

        I think this one fell victim to the bugs we faced that caused some impatience,because it made the mission drag out long into the late night(in my part of the world anyways) and because of the rumor we might end it.Some people start shooting everywhere and start blowing everything up(mostly friendly stuff) as though someone gave the order to disregard all sanity as soon as there's a hint of ending a mission and I cannot confirm either if it was done in the first mission,but that seemed to play a roll in ending it also.Such things don't make it fun for the commander and it makes him feel like no one is cooperating,so why continue,especially when hes involved in a logistics nightmare already.Last thing he needs is friendlies blowing up friendly vehicles while hes trying to keep the mission on it's feet.

        We had a slight problem at first with one of our 3 humvees,I think someone CTDed in the driver spot.After some time we got that sorted out and people could get in the Humvee and we could roll out and get the show on the road.The one thing that really slowed us down like thick mud, was trying to rearm the Abrams.They only had one tank round each and would not rearm at the ammo truck.It would rearm to 5 tank rounds then quickly drop down to one,and it would continue like that for a long time as we tried everything we could to get it right.After resorting to our last trick,and that was to fire off the only tank round in one of the tanks to see if it would reload,we realized that now that tank would not rearm at all,so we ditched it and moved out with 1 Abrams and 2 Humvees.

        I was starting to think that maybe the Abrams were scripted to only carry one round,because it seemed like most heavy vehicles were meant to be limited on ammo,but then I wondered why would we have ammo trucks.Actually come to think of it,i still don't know if that was scripted or a bug.

        Unfortunately, the second mission mentioned seemed to have a major bug in it.I was a Bradley gunner (for Bravo I think) and all was going well and people were getting good action, but as our tickets ran out, our Bradley fighting vehicle ended up teleporting on its own way off to the North West, in no mans land, about 25km out from the fighting.When the Bradley suddenly teleported,it took about half of Bravo squad and Bravo's lead with it.Then on top of that, we hit an unseen rock,and yes you guessed it,it flipped(lousy rubber Bradleys).So now we find ourselves in the Twilight zone,teleported to no mans land,no vehicle and about 25km from the fighting.I think that bug zapped the morale and after more casualties and low number of players left alive,it was called.

        I honestly don't know how many people were left at the end in the second mission,my spectator script was bugged,all I can say is that i never fired a shot,never took fire (had a lot of fun regardless, good squad and leadership),but paid the dead mans toll anyways,but i was willing to let them finish the mission and not allow my buggy experience mess there's up,the one's still in the fight.

        Also another point in other missions, sometimes you can see that if the going gets tough in a mission,people are ready to call it quits and basically surrender and put up the white flag as they lose all hope.This sometimes blows me away when i come across this,because salvaging a mission that seems to be going to the dogs is what war is all about, and personally I like to always try and solve the problems that are presented and try to come out on top and finish the job,it feels good to do so and sometimes people underestimate themselves and others.Yes a very few can go the distance and get the job done against all odds,and all missions that get unorganized can get organized again,so have faith in yourselves,you have the skill to pull through to the end :)

        Same with finding the few pockets of resistance that remain hidden,some people want to take the short cut and say we basically won so we can end it.Finding the remaining pockets of resistance is another fact of war and requires the commander to maneuver his forces in search patterns which i find is fun to do as a commander and as a soldier on the ground,it presents a new challenge and situation we need to adapt to.It's a man hunt,and man hunt's require tactics just like firefights.So find those remaining enemy and complete the job,leave no man behind and no enemy untouched :)

        With all that said( a common phrase I know),I strongly agree with Seg[TDev] and find that sometimes people can be a little quick to try and call a mission.I would like to see missions run down to the last man every time until the enemy swallows us all up or we swallow up all the enemy.If your dead and you cannot participate in the fighting,well that's the price you pay for getting killed,makes sense to me.Those who survive the mayhem should be given every opportunity to complete the mission, down to the last man :)

        Step up,fight it out,move on and proceed to complete the mission until the last man standing falls or is brought home,don't give up,don't quit and never lose hope,these things should be carried with you in life and should spill over into our gameplay :)

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        • #5
          Re: When to "call it"

          I take full responsibility for th ending of the mission last night. From what i understood in the briefing, our primary missions was to take and hold objective 1, and only to clear objective 2 of all enemy forces. With only one BFV and maybe 6-8 Infantry left, and both our Tanks disabled, we couldn't successfully hope to attack objective 2. One thing i like about Krause's missions is their flexibility for the commander to decide when he has completed his objectives. In my mind, it felt like more of a victory if we managed to take and hold the objective against any counter-attacks as per the briefing instead of doing a suicide charge for no reason.
          Last edited by ThePieSpy; 06-15-2010, 07:15 PM.


          In a world of Herp, one man dares to Derp.

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          • #6
            Re: When to "call it"

            Simple answer to this question. when a Co or Admin says call it, it gets called

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            • #7
              Re: When to "call it"

              With that being said...Pick your CO and admins carefully then.

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              • #8
                Re: When to "call it"

                well pick your CO's carefully, I was picked by jebus to be an admin

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                • #9
                  Re: When to "call it"

                  I think the CO should have ultimate responsibility in whether or not a mission is ended -- there have been a few cases where missions have been ended prematurely (ie. not at the commander's discretion) in part to impatient or uninformed admins.

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                  • #10
                    Re: When to "call it"

                    Originally posted by Sc[ + ]pe View Post
                    I think the CO should have ultimate responsibility in whether or not a mission is ended -- there have been a few cases where missions have been ended prematurely (ie. not at the commander's discretion) in part to impatient or uninformed admins.
                    If this happens and you disagree with it I would suggest you make a CAA post, in the end its either the Admins call or the CO's that isn't going to change.

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                    • #11
                      Re: When to "call it"

                      Originally posted by Boondocksaint View Post
                      Simple answer to this question. when a Co or Admin says call it, it gets called
                      +1. Nice, simple, and something everyone can remember.

                      Originally posted by seg[TDev] View Post
                      If I am not mistaken the word got out that we were going to call the mission and someone started blowing up HMV's at the HQ.
                      ...and...
                      Originally posted by Militant View Post
                      Some people start shooting everywhere and start blowing everything up(mostly friendly stuff) as though someone gave the order to disregard all sanity[...]. Such things don't make it fun for the commander and it makes him feel like no one is cooperating,so why continue,especially when hes involved in a logistics nightmare already.Last thing he needs is friendlies blowing up friendly vehicles while hes trying to keep the mission on it's feet.
                      This sounds kick-worthy. Just a quick kick to wake someone up and indicate that they need to change their behavior.

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                      • #12
                        Re: When to "call it"

                        Originally posted by Boondocksaint View Post
                        If this happens and you disagree with it I would suggest you make a CAA post, in the end its either the Admins call or the CO's that isn't going to change.
                        That's not what I'm saying -- and this problem isn't isolated to one kind of admin, permanent or voted. It's simply a matter of consulting with the CO and reaching an amicable decision, instead of one party making the decision prematurely or without all the information in order.

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                        • #13
                          Re: When to "call it"

                          Originally posted by Sc[ + ]pe View Post
                          That's not what I'm saying -- and this problem isn't isolated to one kind of admin, permanent or voted. It's simply a matter of consulting with the CO and reaching an amicable decision, instead of one party making the decision prematurely or without all the information in order.
                          I will have to side with you on that matter *gasp* ;)

                          I always consult with the CO about ending the current mission. Sometimes I have to make an admin move and end it because of other factors such as the 2 guys left alive on a TvT and 30 people waiting to play. You all have been there and know what I am talking about. But, for the most part I leave it entirely up to the players/CO on the server at the time.

                          [unit][squadl][command2]

                          KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                          • #14
                            Re: When to "call it"

                            I'm often picked to be admin during the early hours because of my time zone I'm often on when no Americans are so I'm handling the Europeans and some Ozzies mixed in too. I only call the mission when the CO says so, I don't care how many people are whining on TS. The CO is in charge.

                            Regarding the whole friendly fire at the end of missions, from now on I will kick anyone who does it, its getting out of hand. If one person even suggests that the mission is going to be called everyone goes crazy. There is intentional friendly fire, blowing up friendly vehicles, spamming grenades and rockets.

                            Basically I'm going to try to put an end to it.

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                            • #15
                              Re: When to "call it"

                              All missions need to be respawn and JIP. Limited respawn has to be implemented via a ticket system, where after x tickets the mission will fail, making it an automatic call.

                              Until then, when more people are waiting than playing, a call is warranted.

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