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Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

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  • Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

    I've been exited about this game for quite some time now, and as an avid PR player I have dreamed about realistic graphics, larger scale and a more authentic feel.

    Watching the videos that have emerged after the German release, and from reading on forums there are some things that I find puzzling. Most of all it is the GUI, markers on all soldiers, arrows pointing towards objectives, rendevouz-markers on the screen, It's all stuff that I would expect in an arcade game. It reminds me of the HAWX-demo I tried a few months ago, and you won't get more arcade than that.

    Also, the videos from Jets flying around having targets pop up on their screen with type, distance and an instant lock feels even more arcade-ish. Now I know that aircraft can lock on to heat signatures, but why have SOFLAMs and laser targeting at all if Jets can just fly around and clean house all by their lonesome?

    Now I realize that since this is all judged on videos and hearsay, I might be wrong about all this, but don't any of you share my concern?

    Lastly I find it hard to understand why everybody is so preoccupied with AI. In my mind AI is for singleplaying. If you have internet, why would you care about AI when there are thousands of "intelligent" people out there to go up against? The pure PvP multiplayer aspect of this game seems to be drowning in concerns about realistic AI behaviour. Make the game interesting for PvP, problem solved.

    Feel free to comment and rant with me or against me, I will take great interest in hearing what other people have to say about this.

    Cheers

    Slick.

  • #2
    Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

    No need to worry on about the player markers and such - that's all customizable from the ingame difficulty settings. You can turn everything off down to where you navigate using the map and compass only, and you have absolutely no helpers on anyone's location. Same with 3d person view, it can be turned on or off from there. In singeplayer you use your own settings, and in multiplayers you use the server's settings.

    Jets in the OFP/Arma series have never been very realistic, and probably will never be. One has to remember that these are primarily infantry combat simulators, and as such do not necessarily model individual weapons systems very realistically. Jets are in the game for primarily one reason: ground pounding. Any air-to-air capability should be considered a bonus. I agree that the way missile targetting is implemented, the infamous "magic lock", is pretty crappy, but it's been that way since OFP and is not going to change in the official patches. Hopefully ACE2 will adress that, as they already did wonders to Arma1(for example proper laser-guided Hellfires). Laser-guided munitions, on the other hand, are nicely done because they really require the pair of eyes on the ground(or a laser-equipped chopper) to paint the target. Without anyone doing that they act like normal "dumb" munitions.

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    • #3
      Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

      If its anything like ARMA1 much of the GUI is relegated to server-side configuration, so it can be turned off. Similarly, if its anything like ARMA1 it will be difficult to find servers with a fairly realistic configuration (including TG).

      Secondly, the insta-locks can be problematic, but it really is down to the mission makers to not include/somehow limit the effects of these skill-less elements.

      Finally, much of ARMA1 (and presumably 2) online multi-player gaming is COOP (human vs AI). I don't understand this, and would love someone to explain this fascination to me. COOP, does offer some interesting opportunities to have great coordination, but generally turns into a contest to exploit how the AI aren't as sharp as real players.

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      • #4
        Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

        ^ thanks for the info.. i didn't know that you can turn those off...
        If you show your head then your dead....

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        • #5
          Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

          I want to know why people bang on the UI/Lockon and stuff and I never see anyone say anything about the zoom. Imo it's such a help it's insane. And yet not very realistic.

          As for the UI stuff really it's just a little bit of stuff to make the casuals feel less alienated, I think. Personally I'd like most of it turned off.

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          • #6
            Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

            Well the zoom is an issue because of the LOD. When you zoom your LOD goes up and can see further. As for coop, coop allows for large, 30+ person, games against realistic AI. Arma2 AI is a lot like human players so I would not be dissing it.
            |TG|Ghost02
            TG Pathfinder



            "I travel alone through the valley of the shadow of death, yet in my heart I carry no fear, for Gods hands will guide me to Truth and Honor."

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            • #7
              Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

              Originally posted by Slick_nor View Post
              Now I realize that since this is all judged on videos and hearsay, I might be wrong about all this, but don't any of you share my concern?
              You know Slick, there nothing wrong in what you have said, I did the same question to myself some time ago and the answer is simple, ArmA is not the "ultimate military simulator" as BI claims. Most of the things have been already said by fincuan, but let's take it by points:

              1 - Aircraft's/Helicopters - Arcade (ArmA is even worse than Haws, it lacks everything that makes a simulation.)

              2 - Ground vehicles - Arcade (From tanks, to a simple car, there is no simulation involved.)

              3 - Physics - Hardly present (There is no physics simulation involved, period. Tanks fly, no inertia or weight, hand grenades rebound on the ground like tennis balls, etc.)

              4 - Weapons and vehicles reproduction - Realistic but incomplete (This is a good point, nice textures and models. But you can hardly take them as simulation, you can't interact with a cockpit for example, tank interiors don't exist, javelins are arcade, M136 can be reloaded, etc.)

              5 - AI - Hmmm (I don't know what to say about it, they are dumb as hell, but they do surprise you sometimes. It seems to be improved in arma2, but I'm waiting to see for myself.)

              As you can see, in my opinion, arma is not a simulation at all. Sure it as a some realist features and tactical combat, but it's nothing to praise to the heavens.

              I see arma as a slow paced FPS, with a huge world and great potential; what really takes it apart from others, it's the mature and great community that plays it. ArmA would be nothing without it's community of modders and players.
              sigpic

              PR BF2 Alias: NewOrder_JoyDivision

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              • #8
                Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                If its anything like ARMA1 much of the GUI is relegated to server-side configuration, so it can be turned off. Similarly, if its anything like ARMA1 it will be difficult to find servers with a fairly realistic configuration (including TG).
                Agreed, its nice to say its completely customizable... but then nearly all public online servers have their settings with all the 'noob' settings (3rd person cam, live map markings, HUD marks, auto spotting, etc etc) so being customizable doesn't really matter to end user who wants realistic settings in a public multiplayer environment.

                Finally, much of ARMA1 (and presumably 2) online multi-player gaming is COOP (human vs AI). I don't understand this, and would love someone to explain this fascination to me. COOP, does offer some interesting opportunities to have great coordination, but generally turns into a contest to exploit how the AI aren't as sharp as real players.
                Agreed again Sam, not sure why PVP is not the bread and butter of this game, personally I find it much more interesting than fighting static AI (ala Arma1). Maybe ArmA2 AI will be vastly improved, but still I would think PVP would be much more intelligent and interesting.

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                • #9
                  Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                  Well I'll say it again as previously the many times before. For all you rocket scientists that think we have left certain settings on "cadet" mode on purpose and do little to credit what we actually "Do try and do", I'll tell you this;

                  We have tried MANY times to set certain configurations "truly hardcore" but the server box and maybe the game, keeps restting back to the default settings whenever we turn the box on and off.

                  We have tried and do try to make the changes requested by players, but equally I would also like to point out that the cotinued "griping" is really starting to grate. If people offered a little more assistance rather than moaning about what is not to their liking, they will get a great deal more from their admins in return.

                  As to TvT versus CoOp...the age old nugget raises it's head again.

                  CoOP is what makes TG different, CoOp is what populates the server. The fortunate thing we have on our side as admins in "past data" and TvT when it was focussed on for a while, kills the server numbers. We even set up one of the servers (1) to cater toward TvT and all the people complaining about it including you Fuzz and Sam, have been noted by your absence in organising TvT games on server1. The server has been there and geared toward TvT...so step forward and start setting up some missions.

                  The fact remains, TG is about CoOp....its the very nature of what TG is all about. We will hold TvT events to change things up a bit every now and then, but overall, our focus is toward CoOp.

                  Now the next post I see from you Fuzzhead, I would really love to see what you truly enjoy about TG and the servers, as this would be a very welcome change. ;)
                  BlackDog1




                  "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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                  • #10
                    Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                    As to TvT versus CoOp...the age old nugget raises it's head again.

                    CoOP is what makes TG different, CoOp is what populates the server. The fortunate thing we have on our side as admins in "past data" and TvT when it was focussed on for a while, kills the server numbers. We even set up one of the servers (1) to cater toward TvT and all the people complaining about it including you Fuzz and Sam, have been noted by your absence in organising TvT games on server1. The server has been there and geared toward TvT...so step forward and start setting up some missions.

                    The fact remains, TG is about CoOp....its the very nature of what TG is all about. We will hold TvT events to change things up a bit every now and then, but overall, our focus is toward CoOp.

                    Now the next post I see from you Fuzzhead, I would really love to see what you truly enjoy about TG and the servers, as this would be a very welcome change.
                    I don't really want to argue TvT versus Coop (its not the point of the thread, plus I can sort of see the appeal of both), but I will say the 'TvT' server is slightly flawed in that it runs Domination by default and if I were going to draw a venndiagram of people who join a Domination game but would also feel comfortable switching to serious TvT, the overlap would be minimal.

                    In terms of "and all the people complaining about it including you Fuzz and Sam, have been noted by your absence in organising TvT games on server1" several months ago I sent an extensive multi-page plan to theBigC about a weekly organized TvT event, I really have not heard back.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                      What do I love about the TG servers? As of right now everything. They are perfect. Absolutley perfect. I have searched for many years for a good group and I have found it because of TG's servers.

                      Now in the mode of Veteran and the servers, have you tried setting the file to read-only?
                      |TG|Ghost02
                      TG Pathfinder



                      "I travel alone through the valley of the shadow of death, yet in my heart I carry no fear, for Gods hands will guide me to Truth and Honor."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                        Originally posted by Slick_nor View Post
                        I've been exited about this game for quite some time now, and as an avid PR player I have dreamed about realistic graphics, larger scale and a more authentic feel.
                        Then you should like ArmA.

                        Watching the videos that have emerged after the German release, and from reading on forums there are some things that I find puzzling. Most of all it is the GUI, markers on all soldiers, arrows pointing towards objectives, rendevouz-markers on the screen, It's all stuff that I would expect in an arcade game. It reminds me of the HAWX-demo I tried a few months ago, and you won't get more arcade than that.
                        Well, there are similarities in the two, but the intent is a bit different. In an arcade game, the arrows, markers, etc. function to move the game at a faster pace. In ArmA, they are there because without them most players would immediately become lost and stay that way. While a perverse part of me wants there to be a tutorial on map-reading and land-navigation and the punishment of being perpetually lost if you skip it, I recognize that the majority don't want to learn the admin tasks of warfighting.

                        It's quite possible to get lost in larger maps and it took me about eight weeks to get the point where I'd no longer find myself lost on Sahrani (default island). Most players would have gotten frustrated the first time and turned back on active mapping. Or not turned it off in the first place.

                        Also, the videos from Jets flying around having targets pop up on their screen with type, distance and an instant lock feels even more arcade-ish. Now I know that aircraft can lock on to heat signatures, but why have SOFLAMs and laser targeting at all if Jets can just fly around and clean house all by their lonesome?
                        This is a valid point and a very real concern in ArmA. Although it's slightly (slightly) mitigated by the laser designators being able to guide ordnance onto targets a Maverick can't lock-on to.

                        Now I realize that since this is all judged on videos and hearsay, I might be wrong about all this, but don't any of you share my concern?
                        Not really, I started with OFP in 2001, I know what to expect and (more importantly) what not to expect.

                        Lastly I find it hard to understand why everybody is so preoccupied with AI. In my mind AI is for singleplaying. If you have internet, why would you care about AI when there are thousands of "intelligent" people out there to go up against? The pure PvP multiplayer aspect of this game seems to be drowning in concerns about realistic AI behaviour. Make the game interesting for PvP, problem solved.
                        A large part of this has to do with the game's realistic scale. PvP, due to sheer scale, tends to devolve into players who either snipe or drive tanks and use their sensory advantage to curbstomp the less fortunate.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                          I hope ACE mod or some other mod can turn this game into a more authentic and compelling MP experience than it appears to be from a distance.

                          I got my Trackir 5 today so I'll try it anyway just for the sole reason of testing my new gear :)

                          Thanks for all your input gentlemen.

                          Slick

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                          • #14
                            Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                            A few thoughts on this thread:

                            ArmA is based on a simulation and is trying to be a game. PR is a game trying to be a sim. Much of the "realism" of PR are constraints placed on normal BF2 functions. Most of the gamey aspects of the ArmA are a result of freedom for any scenario(comes down to mission design and type of players).

                            In both games you have players who feel that the freedom to perform an action(often non combat oriented) is a more realistic, these players tend to govern themselves and avoid exploits on their own as they see the value of the game as playing like they are in that scenario or a bit of role playing. The other side is players who feel freedom just leads to exploits and run and gun. They see value in having clearly defined gameplay or missions with restrictions on options that are not directly focused on completing the mission in a particular fashion.

                            Coop and TvT on a pub server are two vastly different animals. The focus on COOP's in ArmA vs TvT is the required organization to avoid the same type of exploiting and added camping that exists in complaints against A.I. COOP works better in a pub setting because they require less organization than a TvT and still delivers all that ArmA offers. A predetermined event however, is another story and COOP and TvT can thrive equally assuming the majority is into a TvT type game.

                            In my personal experience, seeing TvT and COOP in a pub server setting, players are more likely to function as a unit and focus SOP's and tactics in a COOP as the fear of being eliminated by the A.I. is less than another player. TvT's that I have been a part of tend to break down into camp fests or vets exploiting prior knowledge of mission and getting a one sided victory.
                            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                            XBL GT: Khan58

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                            • #15
                              Re: Thoughts on ARMA - Is it really realistic?

                              Its as realistic as you make it. I consider it to be the closest thing we have to a realistic complete sandbox/game(with all its abilities and disabilities)

                              But calling it a sim... As previously mentioned, its as realistic as you make it. A simulator is simply something that simulates something else. To discuss whether the BI games are simulations or not, are just a dead end discussion.

                              Playername Sparks444 in BF2

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