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BH incident 9/08

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  • BH incident 9/08

    So I thought I'd write something quick, just in case. A few folks seemed taken down by this.

    There was a mission in progress. I was JIP. 5 of us at main base, no pilots. I requested for a try.
    Bare in mind, a few minutes earlier we tried to go by BH to AO but we got shot down. I forget the name, but he was in pilot slot and all ready to go - but he still got shot down.

    I requested the command. Someone said to give it a try or something.....or maybe he was telling command to let me (?). I took it as an A-OK, and started ( my mistake for not ID-ing CO ok, and listening to just someone saying stuff).
    MAIN MISSION: Get these guys to AO - that was it. I took off from base, evaded some massive AA, and we made it to AO.

    All of a sudden, my mission changes to extraction. Take note, no one objected to me flying, or asked if I knew the safe way home. I thought I would go back the way I came, though I had some speed, and couldn't check map much.

    Someone tried giving me instructions where to go, but people just wouldn't shut up on von. I asked again, and no instructions came back. Apparently, things were drawn on map for me, but no one said check map, check map. I did hear a bunch of chatter. I didn't know who was who. I will admit I heard "south" and 'going wrong way', but nothing more was given - just a bunch of hollering.

    Anyway, my impression was the mission was done (bad impression I guess, we had to RTB to complete), and everyone was hollering and hooting. I couldn't make much out, to be honest. I was going fast and low, and trying to go the way I came. We got shot down, West of Base, over ocean, I was gonna try and go out and come from South. I really thought I was in the clear.

    Anyway, post is already too long, but I had to put it out here to avoid further drama, and I also would like to fly, sometimes, again.

    So, what I didn't see or hear is someone taking control, and relaying me info. The VON was a mess, so I had no sense of urgency or RTB seriousness. I thought the mission was pretty much done - everyone was just messin' around, all good. And it was all good, but some folks really wanted to finish the mission right. I understand the situation was more fun for some, not so much for others.

    I made plenty of mistakes and assumptions ( I am new btw), but I had no sense of direction or any kind of order being made. If COs were trying to tell me things, I could not hear because of chatter.
    Again, someone drew things on map for me, but I was not informed.
    ((As a side note, when using VON (it's not TS after all), you must speak more clearly, and please keep the button pressed down a split second before speaking, and after finishing as well.))

    Anyways, I am calm, this post is not inflammatory or caused by grief or what not (some threats were made; didn't take it seriously, but I considered it un-pro))I am all good, but I wanted to say sorry to whoever was being serious about the mission, and would have liked to RTB safely. I made many mistakes, but next time, if people are serious, please politely calm von down, and relay info.

    Thank You!

  • #2
    Re: BH incident 9/08

    I wasnt there but this is simular to what I experienced, players on DIRECT talking alot, and because of the way direct chat works at the moment (very loud and not fading) it makes it quite hard to hear other players (and leaders).

    Romaniac I sympathize with your situation and have also experienced the massive over-use of VON on the server, but keep in mind that VON only just started to be used again in ArmA2 so people may be a bit over excited to try it, since alot of players never had ArmA1 and its a brand new concept to them.


    • #3
      Re: BH incident 9/08

      I saw this in a game on Sunday, someone had to shout with a louder voice of authority for eveybody to shut up so the squad leader could get his team sorted out and on the march. It has to be nipped in the bud early in the game or it just turns into a cluster fu*k. The game commander and squad leaders have to set the tone on comms like everything else or it will all head south in a hurry. We.. meaning all the players.. need to use comms like they are meant to be used or things will get to where we might as well be on public servers.


      • #4
        Re: BH incident 9/08

        fuzzhead, I'm not really blaming anyone. And I agree with your VON and newness comment.

        I think it was also a situation, where all was going to plan (I'm assuming), and no authority voice was in everyone was calmed down. And perhaps things became bad all at once/all of a sudden. In which case, taking control, and not making an arse of ones-self, might have been tough.


        • #5
          Re: BH incident 9/08

          Romaniac, it sounds like you acted as best you could under pressure. Under those circumstances, I figure you deserve a medal for not just tipping the Blackhawk upside-down and calling "EJECT"!


          • #6
            Re: BH incident 9/08

            I'm sorry that you experienced this as one of your first times playing with TG but I can tell you that this is definitely not the norm.

            TG holds teamwork above all others I guarantee you and even though sometimes things may get hectic in game, we have to respect the decisions and commands made by the Commanding Officer in the mission. It is up to the CO to take authority when things get out of hand like that (excessive VON spam in this case) and just tell everyone to hold comms.

            My point is sometimes you have to have a firm voice and speak up to people as a commander because you also have to realize that, given that it is far different than and in the same respect better than other tactical type video games, it is after all a video game.


            • #7
              Re: BH incident 9/08

              Welcome to TG Romaniac. Thanks for your patience and coming to discuss rather than to flame.

              Soldiers in game should not be flaming anyone as you describe. We are working through the comms issues but many new players are coming and going so it is natural to see some growing pains. It's difficult for the old hands as standards are high but the nature of our open ARMA 2 community requires patience from all players and I'd say you are on the right track.

              As a pilot it's imperative to establish comms with command and to have a flight plan before takeoff. You should know exactly where you are going and plan the safest route to get there. When I fly I usually mark the map with simple black dots and always confirm or create an LZ before takeoff.

              As a rule I'd say take every moment of every mission seriously and keep the fooling around limited to between missions. That's pretty much SOP around here. Command failed you by losing control of the situation so don't beat yourself up too hard.
              ARMA Admin (retired)
              Pathfinder-Spartan 5


              • #8
                Re: BH incident 9/08

                I was the first Blackhawk pilot downed in that mission (Operation Quick Punch I think) and it's crawling with AA and attack helicopters. Very difficult flying. It's easier if you are slotted in as a pilot from the beginning and are briefed on the entire mission plan and are set up with comms properly (we were using both VON and TS for pilots in that mission for instance).

                Sorry it went badly and very sorry I had to leave, I try to take every mission to completion.


                • #9
                  Re: BH incident 9/08

                  Several things all went wrong at the end of that mission. I was the FAC on that mission and had been coordinating the air element in the Teamspeak command channel which only the pilots knew since they were the only ones I talked to. Now as I have come to understand JIPs for that mission don't get a briefing which I didn't know at the time so you really had no way of knowing what that red dotted line meant. Then when you flying toward the AA no one really stopped to explain to you that you were flying toward the AA instead we all sat there and yelled at you. Anyway basically massive communications failure, compounded by mission fatigue, and mass panic caused that entire thing to be a boat load of fail.

                  Ways to improve things:
                  1. STAY CALM and be clear as to the problem.
                  2. If the mission does not give JIPs a mission briefing find out what the objectives and dangers are.
                  3. If you are going to fly ask if you are needed on teamspeak for coordination.

                  The hungry, ignorant man immediately grasps that he is handed a fish, but is bewildered when handed a net. The man who shivers in the cold thinks happily of the man who invites him to sit by his fire, and somewhat poorly of the man who loans him an axe, flint and steel.


                  • #10
                    Re: BH incident 9/08

                    A quick reminder, all VON channels but direct the speaker's username clearly shows up with a color. You can use this to identify the speaker and channel. It can be difficult with multiple people talking, so take time and *gasp* use text to attempt to confirm. In hectic situations, sometimes Text is way better than VON.

                    As to the VON overuse, the only way to help cut it down is for everyone to be proactive. Remind others that are abusing VON, that they are disturbing players with their chatter and we have an entire TS server for things out of game or for new players to get acquainted. If that does not work or you do not feel you will get a response, contact an admin if one is on TS or use the Contact Admin forum to list players who you feel are motor mouths. Also, if several players notice a group of players being especially obnoxious on VON, use the contact admin forum individually to report it. Several sources reporting the same group makes it a lot easier for the admins to hand out temp bans, etc.

                    If any of that is too difficult or complicated you only have two options, host a private server with tighter control than our public server or ignore it.

                    As blackmain has pointed out, staying calm and being patient are probably the best things to do when getting into a JIP mission. Find the CO and confirm CO orders. Simple sounding, but patience is required if the other players are already in combat.
                    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                    XBL GT: Khan58


                    • #11
                      Re: BH incident 9/08

                      One more good point to make here: as a pilot, poor comm discipline is particularly punishing.

                      When people are cluttering comms with Direct Channel or Vehicle Channel or any other channel, we often can't even use our hands to type/push-to-talk to get silence. It is difficult to sort out a situation when flying low through a valley, listening to a command broadcast, and having many people chatter on direct or vehicle channel simultaneously.

                      In general, I never speak in (or near) a vehicle unless I'm a crewman. If I want to chatter, I'll type. Please respect that, everyone.

                      Imagine how it would have been if someone had typed the following:

                      VEHICLE CHANNEL: Blackhawk Pilot, our LZ is the other way! Hold and confirm orders!


                      • #12
                        Re: BH incident 9/08

                        Originally posted by fuzzhead View Post
                        I wasnt there but this is simular to what I experienced, players on DIRECT talking alot, and because of the way direct chat works at the moment (very loud and not fading) it makes it quite hard to hear other players (and leaders).
                        Hmmm, on my computer it works different way. Direct is too quiet, and I basicly can't hear anyone clear. Other channels are allright.


                        • #13
                          Re: BH incident 9/08


                          As the CO for this mission, I would like to thank you for the above post as it helps me get a sense of what happened from your perspective. There are several issues here, most which stem from a communications failure via teamspeak and von. More importantly, it raises the need to address the TG voice communications procedures.

                          I will assume you were the pilot who originally contacted me in side chat via typing to ask if you could take a Blackhawk to the LZ. Where the issue became garbled is that due to a bug in Arma, I could not see your player name in the text chat. I simply saw your player position ID number. (for example 1 1-d) I indicated that I did not have a problem with the player taking the Blawkhawk; however, I asked the player several types via voice and text in side chat to please identify themselves due to the bug prior to taking the air asset. That did not happen, so I assumed the player went afk.

                          Prior to departing from the LZ, both mkoll and I indicated there were several waypoints marked on the map for you to follow. Vehicle chat at this time was quiet; therefore, I will assume that your group chat was talking so you could not clearly hear the instructions.

                          Again the main thing here is if you are not sure what is going on, please stop and ask for clarification. As a general rule, extremely prolonged audio silence or failure to reply when a CO is asking a direct question to tends to make me assume one of three things: You are in direct combat; you are afk, or you are willfully ignoring the request. Because we were all in the blackhawk, and you were flying it made scenario three more likely, hence my stern words for you at the end of the mission. That being stated, you did the appropriate thing by posting in the forms to explain things from your point of view, and I no longer hold viewpoint number 3 and consider the issue settled.

                          As a general rule, for all pilots I would strongly recommend you bind a button on your joysticks to your VON push to talk button, and also bind a button to change channel frequencies. Each arma 2 action is able to accept multiple bindings. This way you are still able to speak with your team and command without letting go of your joystick.



                          • #14
                            Re: BH incident 9/08

                            Thanks for the posts guys.

                            I've played a few times before (I joined not long ago, but I spent some time here already). I know how it goes, and usually everyone does a good job, even if the situation is more relaxed sometimes. The teamwork is great.
                            Please, don't think that this was a problem I had to report....just a post to make sure nothing negative came of it, since I sensed some guys didn't appreciate what happened too much.

                            I did actually type, but only once or maybe twice. Again, I made plenty of mistakes.

                            I think situations may go out of control once in a while. It's un-avoidable, but I think you guys do a good job of limiting the frequency.

                            Glad it's all good.


                            • #15
                              Re: BH incident 9/08

                              Another arma bug to keep in mind in addition to the name not showing in text chat:

                              JIP players do not see any markers that were placed on map before they connected.




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