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  • Respawn opinions.

    Hey guys currently there are several threads floating around right now skirting this topic and I thought since I'm currently devoting some of my time and energy into making missions for TG that I would be well served to get a feel for what consensus there is if any of several of these issues. For this reason I have begun this discussion in the general discussion section instead of mission development.

    The first issue I would like to hear some feedback about is the issue of respawn, as a mission maker solving this problem has become a massive issue for me. My general principals on this are as follows. Firstly no one should be punished for joining late or loosing a connection, for this reason I make all my missions JIP in order to help promote server population growth. That being said there should be tangible and severe consequences for dying, at both the personal and command levels this necessitates stiff penalties for combat losses. However neither should commands or players who practice good tactics and sound cohesion be punished for the mistakes of others, for this reason a simple ticket system that ends the mission after a certain number of casualties is not an ideal situation because the same 5 people could use all the tickets irregardless of the actions of the rest of the team. My current solution involves removing 'killed' players away from the AO to a POW camp. Now I know that this is boring and uninteresting but I thought it may have been a better alternative than the 'crow module' or a similar spectator script which tend to dwindle populations especially during longer missions. Some feedback here would be greatly appreciated, do people mind spectating? or would it be preferable to have some sort of in game alternative? do people mind no-respawn missions?

    Basically what do you guys think?

  • #2
    Re: Respawn opinions.

    I'm a big fan of short missions, and I don't mind spectating during through a few assaults.

    When I have to spectate an excessive amount of transport and idle time, or the worst: waiting for the AI to do something (like a defend segment of a mission that lasts for an hour+ with a high amount of inactivity) the odds of disconnect increase.

    So my biggest request would be to avoid longer missions in favor of shorter, challenging actions with no respawn. By shorter I mean about 30 minute completion time.


    Thanks for asking this. I don't know anything about the technical side of creating a mission and the tutorials I've seen make mission creation look scary-difficult, so having any input is a bonus.

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    • #3
      Re: Respawn opinions.

      I agree, any mission longer than 30 minutes should have respawn. Long missions with lots of waiting and down time lose a lot of momentum and the messing around starts. You have to keep the players occupied and in the game and I dont mean macrching 20 miles in a perfect wedge formation only to be obliterated by arty. I hate spectator, when you're dead you're dead, go take a break til the next round. It's not like the game is going away or the servers shutting down for the night. I also cant build missions, I just like to play. A big thanks to those of you that do.

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      • #4
        Re: Respawn opinions.

        I agree with both of you but unfortunately its hard to make a meaningful 30 minute mission for 40-50 people. I shoot for missions that are about an hour in length, however for my new missions I will try to cut down on movement distances although it is hard to balance giving the players enough room to set up and get organized but not making to movement to the AO a marathon.

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        • #5
          Re: Respawn opinions.

          I like the POW concept however I think there still needs to be something to occupy the time of a killed player. If not spectating...how bout putting a mini game inside the POW camp. Like target practice...or something of that sort. This way you can keep folks occupied while they are stuck in the camp.

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          • #6
            Re: Respawn opinions.

            A few concepts I've been toying with as far as respawn goes:

            -make respawns happen in waves to promote teamwork

            -a wave would occur between every 5 and 10 minutes ("boring" time penalty)

            -a wave would respawn very far away from the action, with transport to move back to the front ("active" time penalty)

            -the path to re-enter the battlefield would be very direct, and would be littered with light obstacles to keep players interested during the ride, such as minefields, long-trigger IEDs, and AI insurgents along the road

            Ideally, the goal is to make dying a terrible disadvantage for both the team and the individual, but to provide the individual the means and the interaction to re-enter the engagement.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Respawn opinions.

              This is a pretty interesting dilemma, so here are my two eurocents:

              -POW Camp: this could work if the prison was not under human control; we could have it so that the POW camp is defended by AIs (that if killed should respawn every 5-10 mins) and should be built in a way to give the prisoner a chance to escape (very remote chance) or allowing their command to mount up a rescue op. With this solution the POWs can still try to escape or get rescued without being a burden on the enemy (and avoiding having their base destroyed in the process).

              -Military Hospital: any killed player respawns in a friendly military hospital where he can shoot targets and skeets and stuff until he can be transported back to the front. The difference between this and a normal respawn-at-base would be that the hospital is behind friendly lines, far from the front, making it pretty much necessary for a vehicle to pick them up.

              If possible, with these two solutions you could also modify the revive script: when a soldier is "killed" friendly players have the option to allow them to be CASEVACed (they respawn in the hospital, instead of being revived), while enemy players have the option to capture them (they respawn in the POW camp).
              sigpic

              Now with 200% more content!

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              • #8
                Re: Respawn opinions.

                Merula, I like the "Military Hospital" idea. It would be cool if you were transported FAR away from the action, without any real chance of getting back into the fight(I.E. No transport).

                These players would essentially be dead, but instead of being a drugged out crow, they can practice marksmanship or tactics on a range. So they can improve their skill, and still occupy themselves.
                |TG-X|Turkish

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                • #9
                  Re: Respawn opinions.

                  IMO anything that adds to the fear of death is great to realism and immersion. Long distance respawns, POW camps, etc, are all great ideas... but i think the trick is remember players that there is a death penalty while still alive, in mission. I pretty sure that at least 80% of TG players would never go rambo (with respwans or no). So the death penalty must be somehow applied to the team too (just as in that mission where u need to defend that hill against a horde of russian soldiers, cant remeber the name, where every single player is needed).
                  The idea of POW camps where players need to be rescued is great. Maybe with a ticket system, where while there are tickets availabe, the respawn is at base and when the tickets are over, the respawns would be at an enemy camp, unarmed. When the number get too low to continue the mission, the CO must organize a rescue mission to free those at the camp. Make it a simple side mission, but something that will stop the main action (team penalty), till players are liberated.
                  Im not sure how much this will increase the time spent on a mission... is up to the mission maker tho...

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                  • #10
                    Re: Respawn opinions.

                    Originally posted by 1longtime View Post
                    So my biggest request would be to avoid longer missions in favor of shorter, challenging actions with no respawn. By shorter I mean about 30 minute completion time.
                    You are in luck. I just posted one in the mission/mods forum hope to see it soon.

                    Alot of these ideas are good but we need to add the "player factor". If you have lets say 40 guys. 20 die and need to be rescued. Now the other 20 have to stop the mission and go get them . Essentially we are simulating going to the office and having to turn around to get your briefcase. It may be interesting the first few times but after that the CO's will just learn do adapt the tactics to complete the mission without the 20 or so POW's. I think it will take away from game play if you have to stop every so often and "rescue" the guys that died. What we CAN do though, is give them something to do that takes their mind off the mission. Add in some cars and have a destruction derby, make a shooting range and put in as many ammo crates and weapons as you can. Set the dead off to the side and let the living push on.

                    [unit][squadl][command2]

                    KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Respawn opinions.

                      "Mini-games" like a shooting range or a demolition derby are a bad idea in my opinion. As soon as players lose focus and their "serious face", the quality of the missions played after suffers significantly. Some people can switch between serious mode and fun mode very easily, others not so much. So, you get people who are trying to be serious mixed with people who are still screwing around like they are back in "mini-game land".

                      Respawn is a critical mission design choice, it is not so simple as to say "any mission over 30 minutes needs respawn".

                      How do they respawn? Limited? Unlimited?

                      Where do they respawn? Some fixed point? Mobile HQ?

                      How do they get back to the fight? Walk? Spawn some motorcycle and drive? Be picked up by another player?


                      Not an easy problem to solve. Simply not having respawn in most missions is not a solution either, then you are pretty much stuck in small-scale, simplistic missions and people will get bored of them. There is only so much you can do with 20-50 players and 30 minutes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Respawn opinions.

                        I personally think respawns should be a part of any mission designed to played in a pub settings with an unlocked server. While immersion is important and a big part of this game, usability also needs to be balanced. All too often, 10-20 minutes spent in mission prep, 10 minutes spent in transit, then accidental or inadvertent death occurs. The player has just wasted 30 minutes to play a marching or ride in the back of X vehicle simulator. For some people they can handle that, but I value my time more than that. I choose to only play missions that have respawn when pubbing because of it.

                        I also think it is impossible to create large missions that follow a standard coop mold that would be short enough to justify a no respawn setting. I think respawns should be done within reason though. I'm a big fan of base or static location respawns. I think this encourages good team play especially when the base is too far or in an inaccessible location and forces the player to contact command for transport. We have enough piloting fans that having a transport pilot on any mission would be simple.
                        |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                        XBL GT: Khan58

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Respawn opinions.

                          Originally posted by Sc[ + ]pe View Post
                          A few concepts I've been toying with as far as respawn goes:

                          -make respawns happen in waves to promote teamwork

                          -a wave would occur between every 5 and 10 minutes ("boring" time penalty)

                          -a wave would respawn very far away from the action, with transport to move back to the front ("active" time penalty)

                          -the path to re-enter the battlefield would be very direct, and would be littered with light obstacles to keep players interested during the ride, such as minefields, long-trigger IEDs, and AI insurgents along the road

                          Ideally, the goal is to make dying a terrible disadvantage for both the team and the individual, but to provide the individual the means and the interaction to re-enter the engagement.

                          I'm Gr!mReeper, and I approve this message

                          Scope's idea deserves to get an A+.

                          Plus a wave of respawn with proper transport will keep the game organized, we all know organization can quickly turn sour, especially on BRAVO server.

                          A couple missions has it that when you respawn, you teleport to MOBILE HQ: pretty good idea; but i rather live transport with slight chance of contact and iEd's etc

                          I'm a fan of all your missions Falco. I've gotten much better at ArmA by your challenging missions.

                          The NO respawn thing has its good, and its bad. Players would be much more careful and would rather stick to others so that if they get shot at, hopefully the person next to them gets the bullet (lol sad, but true [on ArmA that is] ),

                          The POW thing is not such a bad idea. Players can joke around but we can do that in spectate mode also and also get to see the mission progress. So I say, maybe make it in such a way that the POWs can be rescued? =D (maybe a dumb idea but adds to the mission, just think of a Special Team fast roping out of a heli, wiping out the guards and breaking their men out lol turns me on)

                          and if THAT fails, at least u still have the POW concept implemented
                          Last edited by Gr!mReeper; 11-18-2009, 12:23 PM. Reason: missed out a couple points

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                          • #14
                            Re: Respawn opinions.

                            Falcon

                            I have played the games with the firing range respawn option as well. Found it initially confusing in suddenly popping into uncontrolled fire environment after fire discipline of game.

                            In no way did I mean to indicate that I thought the prison camp was a poor design. I actually enjoyed the ethical problem it caused. Once again, accidentally maybe, "Art Imitates Life" and I find the discussion interesting because it illustratated how rule driven real conflict is much like gaming.

                            I hate being a crow. With the exception of a single game where the crows gathered tryng to alert us to an ambush position (which I know now violates the rules ... but was very clever and cool).

                            So what would I like. I like your use of respawn tickets. I would like to see them be individual so that each member got a number (one-two-or three max) and after that they were unable to reenter game. This would solve the problem of a few individuals using up al the tickets. I think the idea of allowing only groups of individuals to return to the front is good. Squad or fire team strength returns would simulate reinforcement and having to wait for help which came unexpectedly and only when you were desperately low in strength would add to realism.

                            I would place the respawn further back so that transportation is required .. no one minds being the pilot who shuttles troops to the front.

                            Heck, I wouldn't even mind a prison where there was a chance of escape but it was defended, like a miniature game within a game. But not too close to the action as it confuses the game goals.

                            Again I want to say thanks for all the hours of fun your scenarios give us. My question in no way indicates any fundamental dissatisfaction with the scenarios you design. And, I did go read your explanation of how you design. I actually now understand better why your scenarios are like they are and from a player's perspective thank you for the explanation. (I actually like flares more than night vision in large combat assault now that I am used to it).
                            "The unexamined life is not worth living". Socrates. "The unlived life is not worth examining". |TG| tiggr

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                            • #15
                              Re: Respawn opinions.

                              Giving weapons to people that have nothing to do is a bad idea... simply because its much more fun to aim at something that moves than at some static targets...

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