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Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

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  • Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

    It's been bugging me all day........

    I jumped on the Co-op server last night after Evo crashed and found myself in a mission titled "long way home".

    There was already a group on in the last part of stage one of defending the airport, and it was very frantic. Once I joined several others joined and we had a good population on the server. Airport was successfully defended, and the next phase was to attack Ortego (I think).

    Time to regroup and think out strategy right......this is TG right?

    Things went very wrong:

    1) Someone (who will remain nameless unless they choose to identify themselves) tried to get everyone organized into squads, set a rally point, and come up with basic strategy. For the most part, he was completely ignored and I think basically gave up after continually trying to cut through the banter on TS.

    2) Most everyone grabbed their own LB for transport, and immediately commenced putting on an airshow, complete with stunts, etc, etc... who cares, instant respawn right!

    3) People continued to grab any old vehicle they could and charge into battle. Conga line of death anyone?

    4) Comms were absolutely terrible. When it was clear there was little desire for a good portion of the server pop to organize, several like minded people did, but it was still impossible due to all the unneccessary chatter that was occurring in TS.

    The end result of this? Completely disorganized play. People running all over the place, massive tk's etc.etc. In short there was nothing tactical about the gaming that was going on.

    I don't want to come off as a grumpy old man trying to ruin people's fun, but my concerns are this:

    Anybody logging onto a TG server should expect high standards of conduct. We've all read the primer, SOP's etc and promised to do our best to uphold these standards. It doesn't matter who was on the server first. They do not set the conduct. There are supposed to be consistent standards of play period. The SOP's & Primer are not optional.

    Also, there were several people logging on who are new (or pretty new) to TG. This is their first exposure to TG, and I doubt this is the message we want to send to the ArmA community at large because you either get someone who goes: 1) That was cool, I'm going to play here all the time (BTW, these are not the type of pub players TG wants, unless the can be converted) or (2) This is a joke, I'm never back (These are the players we probably want to stay and play, but why would they. we broke our promise).

    I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR. I DON'T THINK ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON DID ANYTHING WRONG AND MY PURPOSE IS NOT TO POINT FINGERS. BUT AS A MASS GROUP I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A FIRST CLASS GONG SHOW.

    I'm willing to take my share of the responsibility. I should have given much more vocal support to the person that was trying to get everything organized. There were many more "regulars" that should consider doing the same.

    But, we as a community better keep a watchful eye on ourselves. What I saw last night was the first step down a slippery slope. I would not have minded it so much if it was a closed event to TG members and billed as BF2 night, but it wasn't. It was regular pub play. If you desire this type of play, it should be done on other servers that don't mind, but for god's sake take your TG tags off.

    I will comment, in my eyes, a huge problem was the instant respawns. but these are no excuse for not playing tactically. And I will say, if that's the level of gameplay we can expect from missions that have instant respawns, they just shouldn't be there on the server.

    IN MY VIEW. SOP's and the PRIMER ARE FULL TIME COMMITMENTS WHEN ON THE TG SERVERS. READ THEM. RESPECT THEM. LOVE THEM. THEN RESPECT THEM SOME MORE.

    Am I way off base here? cranky? sorry for the rambling post.
    Last edited by Brewski; 08-14-2007, 03:41 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

    Nope... I was going to keep quite and just slowly leave but will say my piece and leave it at that... I'm done with TG in reference to ArmA... I expected good things from this group, but the new breed seems undisciplined and unable to comprehend teamwork...

    I joined in a couple of co-op games, groups of friends were doing the mission there way, and didn't include anyone else... then Sunday I connected to Teamspeak, 1st squad, and listened for over an hour (I couldn't play, it was a locked, scheduled event)... what a shame that day was, people not doing what there told, people arguing with the squad leader about what they should do or where they are suppose to go, non-stop talking and arguing about tactics, and who should be in charge, it truly was a disgrace, and I said it to myself that day... I'm done here.

    Game officers and Admins need to start disciplining these gamers, and kicking the ones out that don't follow the TG standard...

    TG has all these rules and post about everything, including the way you brush your teeth, but then nothing is enforced... it's a sad time for me, I leave a group that I have highly respected for so many years... TG IMO is NOT what it was a year ago, and thats fine if thats whats wanted, but not for me anymore.

    Good luck folks with your enhanced battlefield experience.
    Magnum |TG-18th|


    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

      Originally posted by Magnum50 View Post
      Nope... I was going to keep quite and just slowly leave but will say my piece and leave it at that... I'm done with TG in reference to ArmA... I expected good things from this group, but the new breed seems undisciplined and unable to comprehend teamwork...

      I joined in a couple of co-op games, groups of friends were doing the mission there way, and didn't include anyone else... then Sunday I connected to Teamspeak, 1st squad, and listened for over an hour (I couldn't play, it was a locked, scheduled event)... what a shame that day was, people not doing what there told, people arguing with the squad leader about what they should do or where they are suppose to go, non-stop talking and arguing about tactics, and who should be in charge, it truly was a disgrace, and I said it to myself that day... I'm done here.

      Game officers and Admins need to start disciplining these gamers, and kicking the ones out that don't follow the TG standard...

      TG has all these rules and post about everything, including the way you brush your teeth, but then nothing is enforced... it's a sad time for me, I leave a group that I have highly respected for so many years... TG IMO is NOT what it was a year ago, and thats fine if thats whats wanted, but not for me anymore.

      Good luck folks with your enhanced battlefield experience.

      I unortunately agree with a lot that Magnum is saying. When I first joined TG it was a small very close knit community and played Ghost recon and Natural Selection almost exclusively.
      With the addition of more arcadey action oriented games, specifically BF2 (thearcadey one I have experience with) the maturity level and the willingness to work as a team has dropped drastically.


      I am not at the point where I am leaving TG but I am at the point that I am actually willing to look at other servers. Back in the GR days I never even glanced at other servers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

        Jam you are not way off base. In fact I applaud your approach.

        I'm a short timer, starting my TG SM in December of 05. Of course that excludes me from those halcyon days of Ghost Recon but I've had my fair share of shining moments in and around TG and TG servers. I can say with certainty that no other server I've found anywhere offers the mostly consistent level of teamwork found most nights on the TG servers.

        Growth is hard. You can't always stay the way you were no matter how good it was. That's not to say what's happening or happened is justifiable but with more people, players and popularity comes more chances for tarnishment --especially for those who go way back to the good old days.

        @ Toshido & Magnum--It's a shame you had that experience but as a long timer I'll posit that you should not sit back, say nothing and let it go. Speak up, write a PM to an admin with names or the GO for that matter.

        I don't say that to call you out as I've been guilty of doing just what you did on more than one occaision. It's hard to be the hard a_ _, especially with gamers you game regularly with. But, I've also made my fair share of reports too, mostly private I'll grant you.

        Something else I'll add too--how many of you were in the EVO server before it crashed last night. With an infantry squad led by Khan and an air element led by Switch we enjoyed a very tight, very tactical experience. See Khan's excellent AAR for details. I only add this to point out that it's not all gloom and doom guys...some things ARE working right.


        This should be an interesting thread. I'd love to see how some of the recent additions to TG respond.
        Last edited by Grunt 70; 08-14-2007, 04:36 PM. Reason: corrected syntax and context
        sigpic
        |TG-1st|Grunt
        ARMA Admin (retired)
        Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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        • #5
          Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

          Im sorry for the bad experiences guys... BUT... it sure would be nice if people would gather some names and pm them to an admin.. Its extremely hard to govern a server if we cant hear or see whats going on... Please, just like all those threads in the PR forums about the decline of play, Ill say the same to you guys.. Please dont judge the entire community because of the actions of a handful of idiots, come here and put up a thread about it public and leave it at that... PM an admin with names and it will be handled you can count on that!! Rest assured Im gonna be crackin down on this type of play, no matter who it is! Like I said before.. Im not gonna let what happend to other games here at TG, happen to this game. If I see/hear any of this on the server, you can bet there will be a huge hammer swingin that day!
          Dizlor


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          • #6
            Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

            The mission itself just wasn't very good. You missed the beginning where it was just a frag fest. The team basically faces overwhelming odds and respawns seem to be the expected server setting. There were so many enemies (of various sorts) that almost half the players had severe FPS problems and everybody had lag.

            Although the spoiler SOP was violated, I don't think that was the big issue. The problem was later when destroying enemy targets that resulted in multiple deaths. I don't know what happened but explosives were detonated when friendlies were around the targets. Then I think one player wasn't on Teamspeak which resulted in false blame since the non-voip player had trouble explaining it wasn't him that detonated the explosives around friendlies.

            During my years here, I've seen all sorts of game play and some of it has been as bad as this. It happens from time to time here and we do have to minimize it. I don't believe it's possible to keep it perfect all the time. Occasionally, players get tired or distracted and can't play the perfect soldier. The focus should be on a minimum expectation of communication and awareness of other players.

            Players should communicate to other players about any action that may affect the outcome of the mission. If an objective is about to be destroyed, notify all players so they can clear the area and also know that an objective is about to be completed. We all must be aware of our own actions and how they affect others.

            Magnum is correct that we should be reporting infractions to admins. The problem we must overcome is the risk of offending others. We have to point out the rules and that we must try to adhere to them. We can turn this around but it'll take a lot of effort.

            - It's who you game with.

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            • #7
              Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

              Originally posted by Magnum50 View Post
              I expected good things from this group, but the new breed seems undisciplined and unable to comprehend teamwork...
              And you still can and will expect GREAT things from this group.... its the "other" group you speak of that you cannot.. please dont judge all of us, the ones who are actually working on pushing this game forward, based on the actions of some idiots... I know its hard to ignore them, but when I hear things like this, it sure seems to me your putting all of the ones who are trying to take this game forward here in the same boat as the pubmonkeys.. and that doesnt sit well with me.
              Dizlor


              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                I agree with Magnum also and was also there for last nights events. In fact, Since coming back to TG after extended leave, I have found there are a few tactical, team orientated players but there also seem to be a lot of run and gunners.

                Every time I have played I see people flaunting the rules, Ignorant of the SOP's ("what's an SOP??"), GA, doing there own thing and ruining play for those of us that do play by the book. I will not be telling people they are in breach of SOP's (tried that once and had it thrown back in my face) and so I will play the way that is laid out on the SOP's and will ignore those players that wish to run around and try to group up with like minded people.

                Tactical Gamer was formed specifically to avoid this kind of gaming and years ago this sort of behaviour would never have been allowed to happen. We also used to play with only 1 life so personally I would like to see the removal of missions that offer respawn - at least that way the run and gunners can take off, get killed quickly and leave the server peaceful for the rest of us.
                Jex.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                  Originally posted by =Sarc= View Post
                  Magnum is correct that we should be reporting infractions to admins.
                  To be honest, I didnt see one thing in his post about reporting anything to anyone.... Just a negative generalization including everyone involved with this game. As if we are ALL this way, which about as far from the truth as possible.
                  Dizlor


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                    To reiterate Gogeta, Report to us. There are no real admin tools for this game. We actually have to be in game to catch this, we can just check BF2CC like in battlefield.

                    The problem with us being in game is that this doesn't happen when we are online or in the case of Evolution within view. We only have PM's to go on. When we get PM's from multiple sources, it makes it easy to make a decision about players.
                    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                    XBL GT: Khan58

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                      To be perfectly honest, as long as the people who are directing where this game is going at TG continue to place the emphasis on respawning, evo-esque missions (and evo is a major part of the problem) then I can't see the situation improving. I know for a fact at least one admin feels the same way about respawning games. A while back when I had that rant about the state of the game and how I felt Evo and respawns were killing it, I was told that Evo was to facilitate the learning of the game for the new people and that it was not our final objective, as it were. But with more and more effort being put into making Evo fit to the TG ethos (a lost cause, if I may be frank) and a considerable portion of the missions we run on event nights being respawnable (the event nights should be giving us a glimpse of what we can achieve with this game, and used to gauge how close we are to it) I'm beginning to doubt the validity of what I was told.

                      Hell, the only thing keeping me here is that wonderful 2 hour mout movement last sunday. And that was an ACCIDENT. We were supposed to be playing a mission with respawns.

                      But yes. At present I am extremely reluctant to commit anything to TG ArmA when I know it's just not what I'm looking for. Hell, PRM is at least our tactical equal at present, with our group respawn missions, tonnes of objectives, and gigantic groups (fireteams, mission designers! Google BAS f) and general fooling around. As I said before, Evo isn't coop, it's a sandbox in which coop is possible. It is NOT ArmA, it is not even how I or I think many people envisaged ArmA to be. Frankly, I'd rather commit fully to a group that takes its missions and events seriously, with actual consequences to bad decisions that affect the outcome of the mission, people that don't try to pass off logistics operations (look at how we're communicating with our helo pilot!(evo)) as tactics. At present, I'm looking at dropping TG ArmA entirely. It's not that I don't want to put the effort in - but I literally don't feel we're progressing, or rather that we're moving in the wrong direction. This is something that only the GO and admins can change, and I hope for TG ArmA's sake that they do.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                        Originally posted by Gogeta View Post
                        To be honest, I didnt see one thing in his post about reporting anything to anyone.... Just a negative generalization including everyone involved with this game. As if we are ALL this way, which about as far from the truth as possible.
                        I stand corrected.

                        However, all of us are still obligated to report infractions to you and the rest of the admins. You can't do your job if you don't know about the problems on the server. I think Magnum is still right in that the responsibility falls on the community as a whole. You're still right in that Magnum's post is putting down the entire community while at the same time giving up on fighting for values that TG is based on.

                        - It's who you game with.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                          Recently Evolution has been very organised, and by the sounds of it, more so than the co-op server.

                          There seems to be a fair few people complaining about things, and expecting it to improve but doing nothing. Like the admins keep saying, if you see people breaking SOPs, report them, if you don't how will they know and how will things improve.

                          It's sad to see people who have been around for ages leave. I'm only fairly new, but I will try to play more on the co-op server and try to get people organised as best I can, I advise anyone else who plays on there to do so also.

                          Doing nothing is almost as bad as being disruptive.


                          Edit: It is the responsibility of the 'community as a whole' but YOU are part of that community, don't expect others to do it.
                          "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, sweat and tears"




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                          • #14
                            Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                            Don't forget that besides a PM you can get most of us through MSN. I am regularly on my computer during the "night" session and MSN automatically signs me in when at home, but am rarely actually on the server. I'm either working on work stuff or working on mission creation. In either case if you IM me, I will be happy to join the server/TS and enforce the rules. I have ZERO issues with kicking almost everyone off the server if that is what it takes to get the experience TG is all about for those few that are paying attention.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Aug 13, Monday Night Co-op

                              well I am surprised... I expected a major rebuttal, the only ones on the defense is the ArmA admins, lol... tells you that what I see is correct... and it wasn't a general accusation... it was fact... I started with ArmA when it was released here at TG... I didn't like the direction it was taking, so left (and when I say done, I mean with this game and server, not with TG as a whole)... I then came back to help and assist, and see if TG ArmA has grown back up to the days of true tactics, and true teamwork... I see an absurd amount of rules and training...but then when I went online on the co-op server... didn't see any of that in practice... when I listened in on Sundays game, I thought about recording it so you can hear it yourself, but decided not worth my time.

                              It's simple folks, you like this style of game play...great, more power to you...but from what I hear from other gamers and read in these very forums, there is a problem... and some of the admins are part of that.

                              (these replies are NOT to create problems or divide the group...it's to bring the problems to the surface...weither you like it or not.)
                              Magnum |TG-18th|


                              We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

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