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  • Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

    Post feedback on the mission here, good or bad.


    I think things went pretty well considering what happened. We broke contact pretty well under the mortar fire, but it seemed a lot of the leadership was killed in the barrage, as once contact was broken, cohesion looked to have been lost.

    I think that pulling back to a defensive position off of the enemy line would have been best after we made contact at our rallypoint, the Platoon was stretched out and couldn't really offer much resistance.

    I didn't get to take part in much of the battle, I think I was one of the first casualties.

    We moved, without too much delay, from our start point to our RV for our attack on Obregan. We arrived at the RV, formed up and headed out towards the town. We were headed towards a line of barbed wire across the road when contact was made, a few shots from a rifle directed at our left flank. We stopped and returned fire, quickly killing the enemy. We held our position to see what would happen, and then a flare popped over our heads. Shortly after that, a spot round landed right behind our Section. Apparently the enemy was lucky that day, as they didn't require anymore spot rounds and fired for effect immediately after.

    The barrage was intense, but quick action by Platoon lead had everyone moving west out of the kill zone. Since our Section was on the far West flank, I had my fire team partner hold our position to cover the Platoon's retreat. A few people stopped from other Sections to cover as well. As the last troops ran past, we got orders from Platoon to get out there quick. Just as I am getting everyone up and moving I hear a progressively louder hiss and BAM, a mortar dropped at our feet, killing 5 people in our cover instantly.

    I believe these were the first casualties of the mission.

    After the mortar strike I don't really know what happened too well as I was spectating, perhaps other people can fill in the rest.



    Over all, I think the mission worked well, the AI was aggressive as I wanted them to be, but there was simply too many for our Platoon to handle. I hadn't counted on the defenders all moving out of their positions to engage a spotted Platoon BEFORE our fire mission went in. There was also too many armour pieces to engage along with the artillery and infantry.

    Some players had very large amounts of lag, some didn't. Not entirely sure why (thought I had fixed it), but I have one more possible solution to try out, but I am not too hopeful.

    I lowered the amount of enemy forces by removing 1 of their reserve platoons, removing all the BRDMs and repositioning their MG nests and patrols. They should be more concentrated around the objectives now.

    Also, I made the fire mission timing dependent on the Platoon 1IC. He has an action that will start the fire mission in 60 seconds. This should allow for the Platoon to organize themselves and approach their objectives with more freedom. I also increased the amount of shells in the fire mission, as it wasn't inflicting the casualties I had hoped for.


    All in all, it was an interesting mission and was quite interesting to see the Platoon get slowly ripped to pieces by the enemy counter-attack.

  • #2
    Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

    What was supposed to happen did not happen ;)
    My plan was for the platoon to organize into 2 sections, a support element consisting of the weapons squad (foxtrot) and a rifle squad (E), and an assault element consisting of charlie and delta rifle squad. The HQ squad would be divided down and the PSG (ghost) would go with F and the medics would be attached to C, D, E. I would be somewhere with the assault element floating between C and D. The platoon would move to their first waypoints once the mission started then follow routes which were placed on the map to get to their respective attacking points. The support element was to head to the hills East of obj 1 in obregan and establish a support-by-fire position to be able to put fires down onto the OBJ which would be roughly 300-400 meters away. The assault element was to rally near the town N of obregan on the road. We had pre-arranged fires in support of our attack, some HE for a couple of minutes and then an illumination mission. The support element would open fire after the artillery barriage had ceased and the illumination pre-planned fire mission began. With cover from the supporting element, the assault element would move in from the North of obregan and seize the OBJ. Once the obj was seized, we would conduct actions on the objective, the support would begin assaulting to it, and the whole platoon would reconsolidate near the OBJ. Basically, my concept of operation was a direct copy of fm7-8's platoon attack format. After seizing the first obj, we would continue on seizing the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th objs with a similar approach.

    What actually happened.
    Well, things went down hill quickly on this one :(.
    I should have suspected something was up when Beta said something to the effect of "What if we take contact before we reach the waypoints?"
    I didn't take any screens, but essentially I led the platoon into a company sized ambush.
    The mission began and I looked at my in-game watch. It was 0500. We had until 0515 to get into position since that was when the preplanned fires would begin.
    At the assembly area (AA), there was massive confusion since it was so dark outside. I tried to get the medics to find the squads I wanted them to attach to, but there were too many people all huddled up. After roughly 3 minutes, I told the sqd leaders to move to their first waypoints. There was still massive confusion and some squads reached their waypoint minutes before other squads. It had at least been 8 minutes before the entire platoon was moving to their respective start points for the attack. I was worried about the time hacks, so I told the SLs to get their people moving.
    Someone spotted enemy machine gun nests on the support's axis of advance and so I decided to move them NW of the OBJ to establish their SBF position.
    We began moving foward and someone spotted enemy at the rally point town above obregan. Unfortunately the enemy spotted us as well.
    I heard some small arms fire and then a flare was launched.
    Then all hell broke loose.
    We had mortars starting to rain down on us, so I yelled "Incoming!." Seconds later I decided to follow the react to indirect fire battle drill and ordered the entire platoon to bound 200 meters to the West since I though we would be moving away from the bad guys.
    In retrospect, I should have called the retreat and bounded NW back towards our assembly area and setup a defense.
    We continued west for approximately 120 meters and got into a treeline because someone yelled that they saw INF to the W and S.
    At this point, we were surrounded on three sides and taking direct fires (the indirect had ceased).
    I told the SLs to establish tentative defensive positions in the area, but we were all bunched up a nice column with no good fires to the South.
    Moments later a BRDM rolled into our position and actually got north of our forces.
    Massive confusion ensued. I don't think that the law gunners (m72) knew they were packed on rucks since no one (to my knowledge) fired AT rounds at the BRDM.
    Enemy infantry continued to press us on three sides and begin bounding up on us.
    I eventually died in the little bush patch that held pretty much the entire platoon and ghost quickly stepped up to lead (THANKS BUDDY!)
    Unfortunately he was killed as well later.
    The platoon slowly died out in the general vicinity of where we stopped after taking arty.
    They were cut down from around 30 people to about 3 before the mission was deemed a failure (90% casaulties woohoo).
    Thanks eveyone for the good try. Hope everyone had fun, that's the important thing.

    Notes on mission:
    Great mission concept!
    I liked especially how the approaches going to the objectives were particularly well covered by the enemy, just as if they had planned the defense by thinking about how they would attack the area.
    The machine gun nests were on the support's axis of advance and the assault element ran into enemy in a town where they were to rally.
    Oh I loved the indirect fire too, but perhaps you could add like a wait 10 to 30 seconds (randomized)after being spotted to simulate the foward observer calling in fire on the target reference points. Even when using TRPs though, it is almost always the case that the enemy will not be right on top of the TRP and you will have to adjust fires. I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement, but perhaps you could add in spotting rounds and begin bracketing the target (it might have already been doing this, but it seemed like the first round landed directly on some guys).
    That way if we are spotted, we at least have some time to take some form of cover.
    I have mixed feelings about the night assault since we had no NVGs. In arma, just as in RL, no nvg movements are particularly hard and most the time devolve into a column with you following the next guy by looking at the cat eyes on his helmet. This almost ensures that the element (whatever sized) will be bunched together and an easy target for fires. Even with NVGs this phenomen is common since formations are hard at night. Perhaps you could use the time selecter. Historically, the time to attack is at first light or last light, twilight lighting conditions, which is why you stand to at first light/last light in patrol bases.
    I also liked the qrf in the form of an armor reserve force. Perhaps though you could limit their response by putting their movement to "limited" and adding a timer before they come to simulate the enemy rtos calling in their contacts to a commander who will then send out the QRF. Maybe a couple of minutes or so for this event to occur (2?).
    PLEASE DO NOT MISTAKE my comments as criticism of your mission. I've played numerous missions of yours and they have almost always been extraordinary. I'm leaving these comments because you asked for suggestions for the mission in-game.

    Other stuff:
    One learning point I will take away is that I needed to space the squads out much more. We were way too compacted.
    I needed to have squared teamspeak away before the event, but I thought it was okay due to my awesome technical skills ;).
    Anyone else with thoughts please offer them so I can take note of what went well and what needs to be improved
    Thanks,
    -Igor
    Last edited by Igor; 03-23-2009, 10:15 AM. Reason: It's obregan not Ortego
    "Never forget that you are there to SERVE the soldiers. Listen to your NCOs and always do the right thing." -My Father
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNxHMFjigA"
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0c6qVnJE4"
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Lpc9vTnqU"
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEzc9fB8xPo"
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdCTP_ae_8"
    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrmoSZgYaFw"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

      Sounds like Beta has already made some good changes to the mission. As for time of attack, I agree that attacking should be done at dusk or dawn at the least. Night time with only 15 minutes to get into position was pushing it imo. Now that the arty is set at commanders discression, we can wait till dawn :) and will have time to setup. Even though waiting for the time of attack can be boring, not being rushed to get into position for an attack makes thing run a lot smoother

      I was with the weapons team and we had to walk because of the weight some people were carrying. Also, for special weapons during a closed server event, we need people that know how to set them up and use them so that the m2 doesn't get messed up. If you wanna use a special weapon, practice it on non shceduled event days.

      Good job to the leaders, was fun. I personnaly liked when we used direct chat only on the pathfinders event on operation mongoose. Would be cool if we started using this rule on scheduled events and only people with the radio can talk on ts or side channel... thoughts?
      |TG-Irr|LCpl. Soto
      TGULT-Roel Yento

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

        Originally posted by Igor View Post
        ...

        Oh I loved the indirect fire too, but perhaps you could add like a wait 10 to 30 seconds (randomized)after being spotted to simulate the foward observer calling in fire on the target reference points. Even when using TRPs though, it is almost always the case that the enemy will not be right on top of the TRP and you will have to adjust fires. I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement, but perhaps you could add in spotting rounds and begin bracketing the target (it might have already been doing this, but it seemed like the first round landed directly on some guys).
        That way if we are spotted, we at least have some time to take some form of cover.
        I have mixed feelings about the night assault since we had no NVGs. In arma, just as in RL, no nvg movements are particularly hard and most the time devolve into a column with you following the next guy by looking at the cat eyes on his helmet. This almost ensures that the element (whatever sized) will be bunched together and an easy target for fires. Even with NVGs this phenomen is common since formations are hard at night. Perhaps you could use the time selecter. Historically, the time to attack is at first light or last light, twilight lighting conditions, which is why you stand to at first light/last light in patrol bases.
        I also liked the qrf in the form of an armor reserve force. Perhaps though you could limit their response by putting their movement to "limited" and adding a timer before they come to simulate the enemy rtos calling in their contacts to a commander who will then send out the QRF. Maybe a couple of minutes or so for this event to occur (2?).
        PLEASE DO NOT MISTAKE my comments as criticism of your mission. I've played numerous missions of yours and they have almost always been extraordinary. I'm leaving these comments because you asked for suggestions for the mission in-game.

        Other stuff:
        One learning point I will take away is that I needed to space the squads out much more. We were way too compacted.
        I needed to have squared teamspeak away before the event, but I thought it was okay due to my awesome technical skills ;).
        Anyone else with thoughts please offer them so I can take note of what went well and what needs to be improved
        Thanks,
        -Igor
        Nice AAR! Summed up the mission pretty nicely, even though it was technically an utter failure, I had a great time. Seeing the AI react in a decent manner was very satisfying, in the somewhat near future, expect even more intelligent AI with more chances to die horribly!

        As for the indirect fire, oh god were we unlucky. There is a 30 second "spotting time" needed for the various artillery, that was about the delay between the patrol putting fire on us, and the first flares popping overhead. There WAS a spot round fired ... but the AI lucked out and only shot one (70% chance for 2, 50% for 3, 30% for 4, so they got lucky!), FOR BOTH fire missions, oh my. In retrospect, I really should have bumped up the required spotted units for the artillery, as they basically hammered us as soon as possible, while it as interesting, it kind of makes it hard to keep cohesion.

        The armoured QRF does take some time to be sent out (again, 30 seconds roughly), but it was simply too strong I think, too many armoured vehicles to deal with. I think extending the time for them to move out is a good idea, maybe they will take 3 minutes to move, to give you a little breather to get on to your objective and dig in.

        I think the enemy line is too far away from the objectives as well, it is a good distance to cover while under artillery fire and having to book it to beat the QRF.

        As for the time of day, I understand night missions aren't the easiest thing in the world, but until the AI becomes a little more competent with their battle plan (it's coming), they need to advantage of darkness to do their "stupid" movement, they don't really do things all that intelligently, which is also why the players are so outnumbered. However, I did tweak the time of day 1 hour forward, dawn (the sun cresting the horizon) is at 07:00 for this mission, start time is 06:00, it is a long wait if you want to wait, but you can now take your time to get everyone into position, something I didn't really account for too well. 15 minutes is simply unrealistic to get a Platoon into position.

        I'd definitely like to try this mission again some time as I think it will be a good challenging mission to complete, not a walk in the park like my other missions.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

          I was in the weapons section as well. It seemed like the 50cal crew weren't aware of what was required to employ it, complaining about weight, etc. And it turned out to be bugged then a mortar round landed on it so that was a big chunk of our AT capability gone.

          I was seperated from the rest of the section at that point and made a stand in the trees with a few other stragglers before being killed by a 14.5mm. My A-Gunner took over the gun, but was wounded himself and someone else took the gun without treating him. Around that time the mission ended.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

            Good points everyone.

            Originally posted by beita View Post
            As for the indirect fire, oh god were we unlucky. There is a 30 second "spotting time" needed for the various artillery, that was about the delay between the patrol putting fire on us, and the first flares popping overhead. There WAS a spot round fired ... but the AI lucked out and only shot one
            The armoured QRF does take some time to be sent out (again, 30 seconds roughly), but it was simply too strong I think, too many armoured vehicles to deal with.
            I think the enemy line is too far away from the objectives as well, it is a good distance to cover while under artillery fire and having to book it to beat the QRF.
            .
            Okay, it seems that you pretty much had covered everything I had questioned already.
            I thought the enemy front line was at/around the Objectives.
            Did the enemy just have Listening Posts/Observation Posts (LP/OPs) in the form of foward spotting/early detection units, out in front of their main force?

            Originally posted by beita View Post
            As for the time of day, I understand night missions aren't the easiest thing in the world, but until the AI becomes a little more competent with their battle plan (it's coming), they need to advantage of darkness to do their "stupid" movement, they don't really do things all that intelligently, which is also why the players are so outnumbered.
            .
            That was hands down the smartest AI I think I have ever seen.
            Could you scale the enemy down to a understrength company (maybe 120 guys)?
            Maybe have some of them patrolling areas, some defending areas, and some in reserve to move to engage the BLUFOR/plug holes in the line once the attacker's axis of advance direction is known.

            Originally posted by beita View Post
            I'd definitely like to try this mission again some time as I think it will be a good challenging mission to complete, not a walk in the park like my other missions
            .
            Most definitely. Maybe we can play this one again next Sunday.
            Could you randomize/change the enemy's starting positions a little so we wouldn't know what to expect?
            I can help with this task if you want, I've got a template that randomly chooses gamelogic for the enemy to be moved to. At the minimum, the bunkers the enemy has should be randomly placed so we don't know where they will be.

            Originally posted by LCpl. Soto View Post
            As for time of attack, I agree that attacking should be done at dusk or dawn at the least. Night time with only 15 minutes to get into position was pushing it imo. Now that the arty is set at commanders discression, we can wait till dawn :) and will have time to setup. Even though waiting for the time of attack can be boring, not being rushed to get into position for an attack makes thing run a lot smoother
            Couldn't agree more. Perhaps next time as well there might be time for a leader's recon, although I hate making people just sit there doing nothing. If we could emplace everyone, the at guys could unpack their laws/drop rucks and the SLs could setup a perimeter
            Also without the timehacks we could take it much slower and be more stealthy.

            Originally posted by LCpl. Soto View Post
            I was with the weapons team and we had to walk because of the weight some people were carrying. Also, for special weapons during a closed server event, we need people that know how to set them up and use them so that the m2 doesn't get messed up. If you wanna use a special weapon, practice it on non shceduled event days.
            Originally posted by Apocal View Post
            I was in the weapons section as well. It seemed like the 50cal crew weren't aware of what was required to employ it, complaining about weight, etc.
            I think the heavy weapons should be removed for now until they are working correctly. Perhaps a 240 and an AG and an AT-4 guy could be added instead in the interim.

            Originally posted by LCpl. Soto View Post
            Good job to the leaders, was fun. I personnaly liked when we used direct chat only on the pathfinders event on operation mongoose. Would be cool if we started using this rule on scheduled events and only people with the radio can talk on ts or side channel... thoughts?
            I'm up for that. Would be much more challenging/fun.
            "Never forget that you are there to SERVE the soldiers. Listen to your NCOs and always do the right thing." -My Father
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNxHMFjigA"
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0c6qVnJE4"
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Lpc9vTnqU"
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEzc9fB8xPo"
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdCTP_ae_8"
            "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrmoSZgYaFw"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

              After some thinking
              If we had ran it again, here is what I think I would have done.
              I would have setup the squads: D,F,E, in a defensive line with assigned sectors of fire and a CCP behind them.
              I would have then left the PSG with F and I would have moved out with charlie to probe the enemy. We would make contact, break contact, and move back to the defensive line. The survivors of C would position themselves behind F somewhere and be ready to act as reserve to reinforce besieged areas of the line.
              What do you guys think?


              I know that this plan probably violates the spirit of the mission, but we really needed to wittle the enemy down before attacking
              "Never forget that you are there to SERVE the soldiers. Listen to your NCOs and always do the right thing." -My Father
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNxHMFjigA"
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce0c6qVnJE4"
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Lpc9vTnqU"
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEzc9fB8xPo"
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdCTP_ae_8"
              "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrmoSZgYaFw"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                The mission was a blast. Igor I actually hit that first BRDM that jumped us and stopped him (the crew jumped out and was killed). Only had one LAW though, so was pretty ineffective after the first launch (and yes I think I was the only one who realized the LAWS were on our backs).

                But overall, I loved the intensity of the enemy and how they were firing flares and what not once we were spotted. Great realism, I think I caught myself twice ducking under my desk to avid the incoming mortar fire lol

                GJ Bro

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                  Originally posted by Igor View Post
                  After some thinking
                  If we had ran it again, here is what I think I would have done.
                  I would have setup the squads: D,F,E, in a defensive line with assigned sectors of fire and a CCP behind them.
                  I would have then left the PSG with F and I would have moved out with charlie to probe the enemy. We would make contact, break contact, and move back to the defensive line. The survivors of C would position themselves behind F somewhere and be ready to act as reserve to reinforce besieged areas of the line.
                  What do you guys think?

                  I know that this plan probably violates the spirit of the mission, but we really needed to wittle the enemy down before attacking
                  If we did that I would like to wait until dawn, I think it would have gone better if we could fully see. Also, thanks for the good words.
                  |TG|Ghost02
                  TG Pathfinder



                  "I travel alone through the valley of the shadow of death, yet in my heart I carry no fear, for Gods hands will guide me to Truth and Honor."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                    Hey Igor,

                    I totally agree with your tactics outlined above. We would need to whittle away their armor before we move in and take the objective.
                    I was 2IC in Delta and I believe the reason we took such massive casualties was from the effective enemy X-fire. Would we have been able to move to our planned Support Position things would have turned out quite differently. Also the fact that the heavy weapons section had problems hurt us dearly. In the end we got bogged down in a hedgerow and once jeepo was down I kind of lost situational awareness which ultimately led to the complete decimation of Delta.

                    Overall I was very impressed with Delta and the way Jeepo managed to keep us together for so long, under immense enemy fire. Also I commend BobLeeswagger for hitting that BRDM with a law!!! Nice one!!!!

                    It was a amazing mission and I cant wait to give it another go. I believe we can beat it!!!



                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                      Thoughts:

                      Igor, compliments on your brief: well done.

                      The mission: Like the concept but (as Beita noted) I was having a terrible time with the mission - average 3 fps. The mission started out with a marginal framerate but as we reached our first waypoint - I was in Jeepo's squad - things went downhill rapidly. So I was pretty much useless for the remainder of the mission. My box is pretty slow to begin with, but this was exceptionally bad... I'm not at all sure why. I tweaked my settings down quite a ways in game, too, and didn't get anything beneficial. Then I got shot, and on regaining consciousness, I had the headbug to boot. So I was pretty unhappy and considered leaving the event at the end of the mission but ended up hanging on.

                      Second mission went much better, normal framerates, etc. So I'm not at all sure what was going on - are all the scripts local to the server? Maybe the AI detection/arty script is causing problems?
                      BarnacleofDoom

                      One shot - One miss!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                        Just wanted to add, Impulse 9 took out around 3 vehicles with the MAAWS, so good job on his part. Also since the enemy force is pretty large and if the arty doesn't wittle them down, then Igor's defensive line strategy seems like the best plan IMO.
                        |TG-Irr|LCpl. Soto
                        TGULT-Roel Yento

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                          Sorry I couldn't make it. I had signed up thinking that I would be free, but a simrace I had started 2 hours later than I expected. By the time I was done (after a race restart -_-) the event had started.

                          Just to let the admins know why I was AWOL. At least people had fun, and that means more Sunday events to attend :)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                            Ok, lets see a show of hands of the players who have read Igors fantastic guide on how to be a SL/TL? Reason I'm asking is how much time did you guys have in putting the plan together and disseminate it down to the players?
                            Was the time planning to long or was the PL rushing to get the OPORD out. Would it be better to know in advance who the PL/PSG/SQDLDR/TMLDR are and they could have ample time before hand lets say one day or two days to come up with the OPORD and then when the players start to join are given slots to play and then the PL starts to give his plan and then the SL/TL start to conduct inspection of the troops to make sure everyone has the right type of equipment and understand how to use them, if the player hasn't use it before.

                            I for one can't wait to join the next mission this Sunday. I will volunteer to be a TMLDR and get my feet wet on commanding a fireteam.
                            Knowing is not enough, we must apply.

                            Willing is not enough, we must DO.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Thunder Valley - 22 MAR 09

                              The briefing was sufficient. I assume there was ample time for planning because we sat at the pre-game screen for at least ten minutes, while the leaders were on TS. For the most part the leaders were a self-selected group.

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