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  • Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

    I recently participated in two separate TG online team v team simulations wherein at a certain point we begin generating prisoners instead of respawn. In one game I was a prisoner and in the other I was a Bluefor pursuing escaped prisoners.

    I have gone back and read all the required reading for this site and I have a question that I would like to introduce.

    What are the rules of engagement regarding escaped prisoners?

    I would like to preface this question with my considerations as a BlueForce "Marine".

    (1) I was in the middle of battle and did not expect to see enemy uniforms behind me or in our midst.

    (2) I was a fire team leader and did not have time to "deal with" runaways while still keeping my team focused.

    (3) I do not actually know if an escaped prisoner can pick up a weapon and take us on again like a re-spawn?

    (4) I do know that they can "occupy" our base forcing us to send troops to look for enemy.

    Now with all that in mind I remind everyone that in the real world, prisoners of war have a "duty" to escape. They do so to (1) tie up enemy resources that would be better used elsewhere, (2) to rejoin the war once back in allied lines, (3) they can provide valuable tactical insights if debriefed about their escape and what the saw on way out (defenses, lay-of- land, strength of opposition, etc)

    As I see it, as a grunt, we are faced with exactly the same dilemna here that faces real soldiers (except we don't have the real soul penalty of having to or deciding to kill some one who is escaping).

    The site takes great pride in its attempt at realistic gaming and providing thought provoking disciplined teamwork.

    I see the dilemma as follows, in the game I have three choices (1) shoot them dead (not sure if they re-spawn when killed as escaping prisoner so maybe we should just wound them and leave them to crawl around crippled), (2) assign someone to make sure they don't escape (see dilemma "one" cause he/she would have to shoot them dead or wound them, make a rule that says, in the game as a prisoner, you will not and have no duty to escape, or (3) better engineering control (as in make the walls higher).

    As a footnote, in both games the prisoners had trenches still with them which they deployed in the prison to get over the walls. Quite ingenious actually, but prisoners are in real life.

    Lest someone here think I am an idiot and remind me "this is just a game", I remind you, not to us. I think it may be time to discuss this.

    If you have not seen it there is a youTube video by Dyslexi where he snipes an enemy squad, then surrenders, heals some of them, with them discussing what they shouwl do with him, then escapes, while they debate shooting him, then reacquires his sniper rifle and goes back to killing them. It is a most excellent example of something similar and raises the same questions.

    Let me see if I can find the link : Never mind I can't place a url until I have made fifteen posts but if you search him on you tube and use "Dslyecxi feeling a little sorry for what he's done" , you should find it. If someone who has more post replys, please pose the link for others here.

    Anyway, perhaps we should discuss this and set guidelines for (1) prisoner treatment even escaped (2) prisoner responsibilities and rules when confined.

    Sincerely,

    tiggr

    .... my solution : I shot two of them and returned to managing my squad. Shot a third one running across a field later but did not know it at time cause they were so far away I couldn't see if they were armed or not. Another player tried to talk them back into prison or at least not to run amook. I believe that day three prisoners were killed and one made it back to their base (don't know what he did after that).

    ... I am not suggesting my solution as the answer to the problem ... I am suggesting we have no guidelines!
    "The unexamined life is not worth living". Socrates. "The unlived life is not worth examining". |TG| tiggr

  • #2
    Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

    ummm as far as I know as soon ass they escape according to geneva they are combatants again.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

      It is obvious that, given the context of the mission(s), escaping from the "prison" is a mission exploit.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

        Well I'm currently debating if I want to keep this idea around, and leaning towards trying to find a working spectator script or something similar. The prison was an idea of a way to solve the re-spawn problem, see my thread in the mission development section to add your input, if I could find a nice (no server lagging) mini-game I would like to go that way to give everyone something to do. Also I have already fixed the group problem and will be releasing new versions of the Thor's Hammer Campaign missions shortly when I roll out the next set of missions.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

          If a prisoner is escaping, you can shoot him. While he is in your posession, though, you are bound by the rules of land warfare to see to his treatment and well-being, as well as to protect him during firefights. As for this, when ACE comes back around, it will be much easier to "take prisoners." When someone is passed out on the ground, you can take their weapons, and should. Instead of just offing them, we should strive for the realism of detaining them.

          "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

          "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

          "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

            if the intended purpose of the prison is to hold re-spawned people then escaping is an exploit of the mission. simple as that.

            if there is voted/normal admin on. infrom them who it is and they will be warned and kicked if they do not listen

            if however the prison is ment to be escapable then in my opinion they are doing a sucky job of escaping if they have been spotted! and probably deserve to be shot. however i do not know were the rules stand on this point. as its a very valid question on what should and what should not be done

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

              if the mission isn't meant to be escaped like browna said then I agree, kick em. But if we strive for realisim and its part of the mission, geneva conv. says a pow is only a pow when in the posession of the enemy. If he escaped its says verbatim, he is at risk of enemy/friendly fire and should be treated as a combatant, just looked it up lol.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                well in that case, prisoners are to be treated according to geneva.

                if they are imprisoned you be nice to them. if they escape by all means shoot them

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                  I can teach a POW class, if you want. I still remember the full deal about detaining.

                  IF ALONE:

                  Step 1: Stand away from detainee, shout and curse (seriously. Anger transcends langauge barriers) until the man stops. Give a "halt" gesture with the nonfiring hand (Left side) "HALT! Stop where you are!"

                  Step 2: Yell for the prisoner to place his weapon on the deck. Do this by smacking your weapon with your non-firing hand and pointing at the ground. Do this until prisoner complies. "Put your weapon on the deck!"

                  Step 3: Place left hand behind head, screaming again. Prisoner should comply. Then point with left hand to the side, about 20 feet away from the weapon. "Hands behind your head!"

                  Step 4: Slap your knees and point to the deck, indicating for the prisoner to take a knee. "Get on your knees!"

                  Step 5: Approach the weapon and kick it away, the entire time keeping your muzzle on the prisoner. Circle around to the rear of the prisoner, and close with him. Kick him (no kidding) in the back, around the kidney, just hard enough to force him to the ground. If he never took a knee, kick the back of his knee to force him down. This prevents him from breaking his face when you kick him face down in the dirt, so it's all in his best interests. Remember, you need both your hands for your weapon. "FACE DOWN!"

                  Step 6: Keeping your weapon trained on the prisoner's head (whichever way he turned it, keep it in his sight. Intimidation) flexcuff the prisoner's hands with your non firing hand. Keep your knee firmly planted on his back. Physically search all areas of the prisoner before going any farther. Once all visible portions have been searched, roll the prisoner onto one side, and search his front and side. Roll him onto the other side and repeat. Do this one handed, and rest his body on your leg. Keep the weapon trained on his face.

                  Step 7: Grasp the prisoner by the flexcuffs and lift. He'll stand up if he knows what's good for him. You now are the proud owner of an EPW.

                  "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

                  "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

                  "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                    You guys made me do my homework.

                    Went back to four versions of Geneva Conventions. Lets see, where to begin.

                    (1) Prisoners have a right to escape even a duty to escape under the conventions. (2) They may be punished for the attempt but punishment must not be disproportionate. (3) If they remain in uniform they remain soldiers ,albeit prisoners. (4) It is not "ok" to just shoot unarmed prisoners even escaping ones (this is not entirely clear but the subject in the Great Escape is real and having half the escaped prisoners executed or all was a direct order from Hitler himself and one which the Vermacht Officers disavowed) With that in mind there is a further complication related to "battlefield prisoners", you are supposed to transport them away from the hostilities ASAP to a prison camp style setting .

                    I can find nothing that indicates it is "ok" to kill them once they have been disarmed. If they take up arms again all bets are off as once more they are combatants. This in real life is sometimes handled by "taking no prisoners" as in there is no problem managing prisoners since no one survives the combat. This too tends to draw attention since injury rations in battle are fairly easy to determine and with the exception of overrun positions usually there are casualties and prisoners.

                    Which brings us full circle again. Falcon, none of this indicates that I think the problem is one of design, I do think it is interesting that "Art has imitated Life here" which is probably highly likely in simulation games.

                    I think we just need to set out expectations for prisoner behavior like you guys did for crows. Cause, frankly, I would prefer not to have to shoot unarmed escapees (even in pretend).

                    I do applaud the cleverness of all who escaped. You caused a hell of a mess behind our lines. And a great distraction. I would still like to know if escaped prisoners can rearm and to that aim I think we should let one get back to enemy lines to see.

                    My two centavos.

                    And, I really enjoyed Barnes' response about the techniques of "securing " prisoners. I don't remember those lessons from circa 1967-71. Wonder if they have changed the teaching for infantry.
                    "The unexamined life is not worth living". Socrates. "The unlived life is not worth examining". |TG| tiggr

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                      Thanks for the step-by-step guide on how to detain a prisoner, Barnes! I'll now go practice on my neighbours :D



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                        Originally posted by Thomas R Harper, Jr View Post
                        And, I really enjoyed Barnes' response about the techniques of "securing " prisoners. I don't remember those lessons from circa 1967-71. Wonder if they have changed the teaching for infantry.
                        You have to play to the weakness of the infantry, and thats big words lol. j/k barnes. Tiggr as always your post brings up an interesting debate within the TG community. I think we should leave the POW scenario in. If they escape that is just more stress for the SL/FTL/CO. It is a very unique challenge. I cant think of anyother MPO games i have played where you here "we started to assault through then the POW's hopped the walls and where running after us." It can add a very different dynamic to some of the missions.

                        [unit][squadl][command2]

                        KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                          Originally posted by Thomas R Harper, Jr View Post
                          You guys made me do my homework.

                          Went back to four versions of Geneva Conventions. Lets see, where to begin.

                          (1) Prisoners have a right to escape even a duty to escape under the conventions. (2) They may be punished for the attempt but punishment must not be disproportionate. (3) If they remain in uniform they remain soldiers ,albeit prisoners. (4) It is not "ok" to just shoot unarmed prisoners even escaping ones (this is not entirely clear but the subject in the Great Escape is real and having half the escaped prisoners executed or all was a direct order from Hitler himself and one which the Vermacht Officers disavowed) With that in mind there is a further complication related to "battlefield prisoners", you are supposed to transport them away from the hostilities ASAP to a prison camp style setting .

                          I can find nothing that indicates it is "ok" to kill them once they have been disarmed. If they take up arms again all bets are off as once more they are combatants. This in real life is sometimes handled by "taking no prisoners" as in there is no problem managing prisoners since no one survives the combat. This too tends to draw attention since injury rations in battle are fairly easy to determine and with the exception of overrun positions usually there are casualties and prisoners.

                          Which brings us full circle again. Falcon, none of this indicates that I think the problem is one of design, I do think it is interesting that "Art has imitated Life here" which is probably highly likely in simulation games.

                          I think we just need to set out expectations for prisoner behavior like you guys did for crows. Cause, frankly, I would prefer not to have to shoot unarmed escapees (even in pretend).

                          I do applaud the cleverness of all who escaped. You caused a hell of a mess behind our lines. And a great distraction. I would still like to know if escaped prisoners can rearm and to that aim I think we should let one get back to enemy lines to see.

                          My two centavos.

                          And, I really enjoyed Barnes' response about the techniques of "securing " prisoners. I don't remember those lessons from circa 1967-71. Wonder if they have changed the teaching for infantry.


                          Tigger good research but, not yo say your wrong, the fourth convention or it may even be the 3rd is 1000 pages long when concerning POWS, I am just going off of what I was tought, I had my annual LOAC briefing last week, and I'm looking at the DOD book that says once a POW successfully escapes he becomes a combatant again, the passage I think your reading mean if you notice the escape in process, like the great escape (Great movie BTW) then you just can't shoot them, you must try to detain. How is a soldier supposed to tell the difference in the field between a escaped POW and a Combatant who just isn't wearing any gear, that's how it was tought to me. I am going to call JAG, who teaches the classes for the DOD and see if I can get emailed the PFD version of the DOD'd LOAC book. Also can you send me the lit you found on this tigger because now I am interested to learn more, good find man.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                            Originally posted by Thomas R Harper, Jr View Post
                            ... I am not suggesting my solution as the answer to the problem ... I am suggesting we have no guidelines!
                            Informative and intuitive posts by all. But gentlemen, you do realize that this is a game. Excuse me, simulator (to hardcore fans). But a game after it's said and done.

                            We don't need to re-learn the proper updated procedures or learn them or even modify or adopt them to fit the game. How many times do you actually encounter such event?
                            No, why did such event occur. Is the question we should ask first.
                            Solution to that? Quite simple. Falcons POW script. Now, before I continue on. Falcon, if you are reading this. I'm merely using you and your mission as an example. Not as a culprit, although we're not far from the the truth. As far as I recall, only your missions uses such script for 'dead' people. Be as it may, I can only commend you for taking your personal time to make missions, for TG members and visitors to enjoy. So thank you.

                            Going back on topic. If such procedures were to be used, why stop with this?
                            Why not include teaching players how to put on a MOPP suit? how to clean/service your beloved M16A2? how to square away your bed? how to properly depending on your branch, blouse your uniform? Or better yet, how to be an officer for people to be able to be a CO of a mission? Maybe for the officers amongst us, might want to hold an ArmAII military academy and give them a ring at the end with pdf of their graduation plaque. You get my drift.

                            Although, I do ( and I hope) that I understood tiggrs questions and his suggestions. My intent is to not to berate or twist this into anything other than.

                            But is all this actually "for real?" For information purposes, yes why not but for gaming purposes I believe it is actually totally non sensical and impractical.

                            Originally posted by Sc[ + ]pe View Post
                            It is obvious that, given the context of the mission(s), escaping from the "prison" is a mission exploit.
                            and to paraphrase Scopes words.
                            "It is obvious that, given the context of the mission(s), escaping from the "prison" is a mission exploit. Not the mission makers intent"

                            TGU Instructor TG Pathfinder

                            Former TGU Dean Former ARMA Admin Former Irregulars Officer

                            "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." - Dag Hammarskjold

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Prisoners of War (TG Ethics and Practice Question)

                              What this actually boils down to is how the game is played by each individual. Yes this is a tactical shooter simulation(aka First Person Shooter). However, some may play it as an FPS others a Tactical Shooter and yet others, myself included, play this as though we are back in the fight. (RL military). Tiggr plays this like he is back in the uniform, and I respect that because I do the same. So he was asking a question based on the way HE plays. Same for Barnes and Boondock. Yes, escaping can be seen as an exploit. Yes, the script might need a little tweaking, but please don't keep reminding us "This Is Just A Game." We know. We just play it different than some, and the way WE play has left open a few questions about ROE's and the like. Thats all he was getting at. It wasn't a stab at the Mission or its Designer (great mission btw Falcon), he was just asking for input to enhance the way HE plays the game. Now I await the mob to attack my post.

                              /deploysandbags

                              [unit][squadl][command2]

                              KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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