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  • #16
    Re: Realism versus Fun

    I voted realism too.

    Are realism and fun seperate, or are they one and the same?

    Well, it depends by what you mean with fun. If you join TG servers just to kill a bunch of AIs, realism and fun are seperate things. If your are looking for a realistic way to kill those AIs (not grabbing an helo and blowing the whole damn island away), then realsim and fun start to blen into each other, beign realism part of the fun.

    Which is more important AT TACTICAL GAMER?

    Coordination. Organization. Achievable only with the good ole realism...

    Thirdly, in your eyes which is the ideal experience? Feeling like you're there, or having a good, carefree time?

    Feeling like your there, of course. Immersion is 90% of the fun IMO. When i had the my best moments in OFP, A1 and A2, at the end of the mission, i remeber myself looking around me and thinking "yeah, im still here".

    Fifthly, I must ask what made you come to TG?
    To be 100% honest, i came here after watching a couple of ShackTac vids and emailing Dys asking how to join them, about 2 years ago. He recomended me TG because of the similar style of play.

    Now some personal notes. You know, for me realism isnt something that negates fun. I really dont care spending half hour marching thru the AO, sitting 1 hour waiting for the attack... its all part of the fun, for me.

    I agree with Gill when he says there must be a blend of realism and fun tho. As he said, A2 do a pretty good job on that point. The "problem" is (as always is) the human factor. What are the best actions to be taken to improve and smoothen that blend?

    Maybe we should do a poll asking "What do you understand by fun?"

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    • #17
      Re: Realism versus Fun

      can't vote because i enjoy both :-)
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      ATI 4870 1GB Cat. 9.11 | Windows 7 7100 64 | RAID 0 640GB | TrackIR 5 | Saitek Cyborg Evo Wireless | The Logitech® G9 Laser Mouse
      let freedom ring with a shotgun blast

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      • #18
        Re: Realism versus Fun

        I think everyone who plays ArmA automatically votes yes to both, unless you honestly are playing for research or your own misery. If you play ArmA instead of another FPS title, you obviously value realism over frags. And if you are playing a game in the first place, I would wager you are having fun.

        I also find it amusing how people attempt to apply so many real world tactics/procedures in a game that does not support said tactics and procedures. I enjoy adding a little role playing for the sake of immersion, but actual training and procedure I find to be a bit of a bore. Does that mean I don't value realism or in some way not support the TG way? No, I just understand there is more than one way to play ArmA exists and find time to play that way here or elsewhere should the setting not be available.

        I've been an admin for the game longer than anyone and I have seen the TG community go back and forth the entire time on what the perfect balance is. Hence why we offer multiple servers. However, online gaming communities have this funny little quirk where the server with the most players looks more attractive regardless of the play style/mission. Take a mission like Warfare that is very freeform, many players who enjoy the hardcore sim flavor of ArmA prefer missions with more constraints and focus because it forces the players to funnel into a particular style of play or lose. Those players will still join a packed Warfare server as opposed to the 0 or 1 players COOP mission here. They then lead the charge for "Vote for mission change." Now, they could have seeded the other server or joined the poor dedicated soul that was playing a standard COOP, but because the population was on the Freeform mission they went there. I bring this up because this would be teh scenario where a player was playing a game and not having fun. But in my example the player chose to join that server. This is why threads like this pop up from time to time. Not because TG enforces one play style or the other, but players themselves either want an audience or are bothered by people having fun in slightly different manner than they would.

        I think for the most part TG has done a good job of allowing most styles of play to be available. Considering we have an open offer to setup custom scenarios for any type of play I find it difficult to believe someone could stumble through the TG door and not get the type of game they want. The problem is they want everyone else to want the same game.
        |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

        XBL GT: Khan58

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        • #19
          Re: Realism versus Fun

          I think that we don't need to focus on the TG aspect of is to much as the gamer aspect. Everyone has different reasons they play. I play becuase I used to be with the infantry for 5 years and now im behind a desk and this is a nice way to revisist some of the best times that i have had. TG as a whole provides the opportunity. Joe Snuffy may just want to play Army because he can't do it for real. TG provides that opportunity. People have fun and some people beat their heads on the wall. (TGMODPACK Release Event CO right here *BANG,BANG*) TG provides the opportunity for you to experience something and have your own reasons for doing so. Personally i think we should not boil it down to "realism or fun" debates. We just need to call it "The TG Experience". And let people take from it, add to it what they will. Realism and fun are seperate, yet they are one in the same whereas "The TG Experience" is as unique as you can get. Why shovel what we do into a catagory? Its all inclusive.
          Whats more important at tactical gamer fun or realism? Neither. What is important is its players and the interactions we have with each other. And the friendships we build. As long as we keep that mindset at the heart of everything we do we cant go wrong.
          What made me come to TG?................."The TG Experience"

          [unit][squadl][command2]

          KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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          • #20
            Re: Realism versus Fun

            Taking a poll does not hide your agenda of turning this into an ultra uber militaristic, by the book community. I am a supporting memeber and have as much say as you do, you will not silence me on this topic. You have an in house squad, command that any way you like. Train them ,march them,have them paint rocks white and pick up cigerette butts and wake them at 0400... and leave the rest of us alone.

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            • #21
              Re: Realism versus Fun

              Originally posted by ChiefBoatsRet View Post
              Taking a poll does not hide your agenda of turning this into an ultra uber militaristic, by the book community. I am a supporting memeber and have as much say as you do, you will not silence me on this topic. You have an in house squad, command that any way you like. Train them ,march them,have them paint rocks white and pick up cigerette butts and wake them at 0400... and leave the rest of us alone.
              Please don't start fighting again guys. I can only Martyr myself once a year. It was just a poll.

              [unit][squadl][command2]

              KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

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              • #22
                Re: Realism versus Fun

                Just to be clear.

                If anyone has a particular play style and would like to start an IHS and hold regularly scheduled private server times, then they will get the full support of the admin group.

                Outside of that it is a waste of keystrokes to be concerned about a singular play style being enforced. The missions that get uploaded are a good example of the style of play suggested by TG. For any other questions see the SOP's and the primer. If on the pub server the majority of players wish to play in a particular style so be it, we have another server.
                |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                XBL GT: Khan58

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                • #23
                  Re: Realism versus Fun

                  I have to refrain from voting.

                  Purely focusing on realism sounds more like a 15-hour, professional and supervised VBS2-exercise where training for actual combat and practising real procedures is the sole goal.

                  Gamey fun sounds like everyone getting an attack helicopter of their own on Domination to "LOL!" around with.

                  TG is and should be something in between. Realism definitely is fun. To an extent. Then it becomes tedious, boring, and a labour. I play games to have fun. Otherwise I'd demand to get paid to do it. Too little realism simply makes it into the same mindless crap as the public servers, which is exactly why TG is the ONLY server I play on.



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                  • #24
                    Re: Realism versus Fun

                    Personally I have fun when things are realistic only up to a point. For example, I'm not thrilled about losing the cursor (done in the name of realism) because it makes some crew served weapons impossible to aim and makes throwing hand grenades total guess work and impossible to do with precision (like through a window). I see the cursor as making up for certain aspects of reality that can't be simulated in game (such as full muscle control over hand and arm movement and coordination linked to the feel and sense of weight in your hand as you throw a grenade).

                    Another area where realism to me is NOT fun is when admins put the missions on expert mode or mission makers do not give players maps. Yes, I know its realistic, but not having a map (or GPS) often makes things insanely frustrating if your squad leader is dead and you have no idea where his body is to grab his map. The mission usually goes to crap and ends with everyone angry and frustrated. Not my idea of fun. I like land nav myself but doing it without a GPS is really tough and time consuming. Still I don't mind doing it once in awhile as long as all the TG missions are not like that.

                    At any rate, there are lots of other realistic things that are fun. Like not having magic medics (with only a medical station back at base) would be I think cool and challenging as it would require actual medical evacs to be fully healed. I also like the usage of proper formations and fireteams as well as proper squad tactics using those fireteams. When done right, it actually works well. However I think we could do without scripting things like random weapon jams which would be just annoying. Likewise, I would like to see AI be both very smart, but also not snipe with AK's from 500 meters (unrealistic). HOpefully ACE2 will take care alot of those problems


                    However fun realism I think is when squad discipline is enforced (booting rambos) as I see rambos totally ruining the fun factor of teamwork. When the real fun happens usually I noticed is when good leaders take charge and really role-play their parts. Even better when everyone is role playing their positions and really in the mood for tactical play.

                    As long as we keep doing that, TG will remain popular. This is where our active duty and ex military members (as well some of our non-military TG members who set up to the plate and are good leaders) really do an excellent job of keeping it real, but fun.
                    I should also mention that for our war vets, this server is VERY good therapy for PTSD because of its semi-realism and in fact the VA is currently is doing studies with games like ArmA showing this to be the case. So I hope that we'll keep it realistic...but up to a point where it doesn't end up getting burdensome and we can try to balance it out a bit.
                    "LETS ROLL GROUNDHOGS!!!" -Supreme Bashar Miles Teg (Heretics of Dune)

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                    • #25
                      Re: Realism versus Fun

                      Chief, Dredge doesn't get that real. I actually have the least problems when Dredge and Barnes are leading. I have more of a problem with the server settings themselves (no cursor marker) and the missions themselves trying to be uber real and ending up tedious and frustrating. Thankfully, I know Falcon has been doing better making his missions funner. His Everon TVT mission for example is a real winner. Not realistic...but a perfect mission for hardcore squad team fire and maneuver which is the real meat of ArmA and TG I think.

                      Also ThA Khan: I also like that we have the public and password server. What I noticed has been a real winner is that from time to time the regular members takeover the Bravo server and do a tactical mission interupting the normal games. What I've noticed is that very few players leave and in fact really love seeing the domination mission or another mission, being played in a more realistic tactical manner. It only happens once in awhile or for a mission or two before we end up migrating back to Alpha. However this method of "casting the net" has caught us some excellent new players who like the TG gaming experience.

                      :)
                      "LETS ROLL GROUNDHOGS!!!" -Supreme Bashar Miles Teg (Heretics of Dune)

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                      • #26
                        Re: Realism versus Fun

                        Originally posted by Miles Teg View Post
                        Chief, Dredge doesn't get that real. I actually have the least problems when Dredge and Barnes are leading.
                        Thank you. I do my best to make our missions realistic but fun...Hill Charge on Ia Drang anyone? Modpack Event Ruway Turkey Shoot? lol

                        [unit][squadl][command2]

                        KnyghtMare ~You could always tell the person holding the gun to your head you would like to play on a different server...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Realism versus Fun

                          My feelings on this have already been stated. When it comes to ArmA, this has been the big social divide among many of the members here and I foresee that divide to continue well into the future.

                          Some of the people here want to role-play military doctrine, have a rank system, address each other as sir, yell at each other like drill sergeants, and practice military exercises even when they don't really apply to the game. I do not fall into this camp. The people who do have been more active on the servers lately and "taking charge" of games more often. This is why I haven't been playing ArmA here at TG for quite some time, and don't really plan to until that pendulum starts swinging in the other direction.

                          I'm not a very "skilled" ArmA player. There are other players here that have used "military realism" to justify rude and demeaning behavior toward others, myself included. This needs to stop immediately. It goes against everything Tactical Gamer stands for and should not be tolerated one bit. But as far as ArmA is concerned, it has been tolerated, so I have withdrawn from playing ArmA here and rarely even visit these forums anymore. That is okay with me, because I've been playing ArmA with a different group of fantastic individuals who do a great job of keeping the milsim stuff in check.

                          As far as playing "realistically" goes, that has been the only issue that has divided people here at TG in the past. We all want to play the game in a more tactical way that makes sense. I don't think any of us have an interest in playing ArmA like CoD. The only problem we have really ever had here at TG - ArmA is some people treating other people like this is actually the military.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Realism versus Fun

                            Originally posted by Miles Teg View Post
                            However fun realism I think is when squad discipline is enforced (booting rambos) as I see rambos totally ruining the fun factor of teamwork. When the real fun happens usually I noticed is when good leaders take charge and really role-play their parts. Even better when everyone is role playing their positions and really in the mood for tactical play.

                            Shhhh.....don't tell all the secrets...lol. I think a big misconception happens when people confuse military protocol with military style tactics. You can have the tactics without the protocol(hence Tacical Gamer) and still be more realistic and tactical than the next group. However, you can also throw in the protocol when you have the players that want that and everyone wins.
                            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                            XBL GT: Khan58

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                            • #29
                              Re: Realism versus Fun

                              Originally posted by Miles View Post
                              I'm not a very "skilled" ArmA player. There are other players here that have used "military realism" to justify rude and demeaning behavior toward others, myself included. This needs to stop immediately. It goes against everything Tactical Gamer stands for and should not be tolerated one bit. But as far as ArmA is concerned, it has been tolerated, so I have withdrawn from playing ArmA here and rarely even visit these forums anymore. That is okay with me, because I've been playing ArmA with a different group of fantastic individuals who do a great job of keeping the milsim stuff in check.
                              i couldn't agree more with you on this, if this doesn't stop others will follow suit!
                              remember bad/good attitude is contagious. TG needs to enforce the rules and give warnings, last time i checked TG is a mature community.
                              sigpic

                              ATI 4870 1GB Cat. 9.11 | Windows 7 7100 64 | RAID 0 640GB | TrackIR 5 | Saitek Cyborg Evo Wireless | The Logitech® G9 Laser Mouse
                              let freedom ring with a shotgun blast

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                              • #30
                                Re: Realism versus Fun

                                Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
                                Shhhh.....don't tell all the secrets...lol. I think a big misconception happens when people confuse military protocol with military style tactics. You can have the tactics without the protocol(hence Tacical Gamer) and still be more realistic and tactical than the next group. However, you can also throw in the protocol when you have the players that want that and everyone wins.
                                Very good point, Khan, and I think that is a very important point. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we like playing with working fire team, squad and platoon tactics, getting fire and manoeuvre drills to work well and have efficient ambush reactions, etc.

                                However it doesn't enforce hardcore military discipline to get the nice bits out of what improves squad efficiency and teamwork.



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