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Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

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  • Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

    So I get on the Evo server this morning at about 8am EDT and once again this is what the vehicle situation looks like:




    All of the AH-6's were out and/or destroyed. All of the cobras were destroyed. Multiple tanks and other vehicles.

    The cities in the north side of the island were still under AA cover, it just doesn't show because I had just joined. So people were flying those into AA zones and then ditching them. This is very frustrating especially for those of us who play in the mornings. We either spend a couple hours getting vehicles back or reset the server. Some of them aren't even recoverable easy because people get them destroyed inside enemy cities that aren't the main target at the moment and leave them, so the city must be cleared first. I really don't understand why people are flying into AA zones with things that don't respawn. Those red areas on the map are there for a reason... Basically just be smarter with the vehicles. Strikers need infantry around them to be most effective and to survive a long time, etc.

    Please remember that people play after you do so try to leave it like you would want it. I understand there's been a lot of new players in the past week or two but this has been an issue for longer.

    On another note, attacking multiple cities at once is usually a bad idea because the AI spawns in and puts a lot more load on the server. I mention that because there's air assets at more than one of those northern cities in the screenshots.
    Last edited by SnakeDoc; 07-03-2007, 11:20 AM.
    |TG-Irr| Snake Doc




  • #2
    Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

    Please, Please....if you notice people flying into AA zones with aircraft and losing them and not making a daring recovery effort immediately, take down their names and pass it to an admin. I am sick of seeing idiots and morons hop into the aircraft and go charging into battle. Learn to fly in single player or use the coop server to load a mission and play around there. There are 2 or 3 guys who can take a AH-6 and win against a shilka and they still get shot down half of the time. But they always go right back and get their helo. Chances are YOU are not part of that group so until you get enough practice stay out of the AA zones. Also, small arms can bring down Helo's. Just because the AA is down doesn't mean you are now an invincible machine of death in the sky. People use some teamwork, use some courtesy and common sense. In general the transport helo guys are better at recovering their vehicles, same with the armor guys. The real wasters are the ones that are always in attack helos.

    Some people feel it is their birthright to fly, fine fly. Just learn how to do it before you play around with these limited access weapons.

    I also hate to break it to you, but this entire mission can be completed without a single attack aircraft. I know it is hard to believe, but yes if every one of the AH-6, AH-1, Harrier and A-10 stay grounded, the mission will take just as long if not less time than if you fly boys "helped" the ground forces out. There are tons of other servers that don't offer as good ground team coordination so why not go there? or better yet load Air Cavalry on the coop server. There are only 2 or 3 good attack pilots that play regularly. The rest IMHO are very inconsiderate, selfish players. If you don't want to coordinate your attacks with the ground forces(That means waiting for a squad leader on the ground to call you in) then why play on our server? Do you feel better with an audience? Do you like pressing "i" and seeing your name at the top of the kills column? I don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I love to fly the AH-6, but I rarely if ever do with more than 5 or 6 people on the server. So if you just have to fly and don't want to be part of the teamwork, go to the coop server.

    If you are a respectful pilot or a regular ground pounder, then please take the time to note a name of someone wasting resources. Don't threaten them in game or anythign, just jot the name down and pass it along. We admins then know who to look for on the server when we notice assets being wasted. /Rant
    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

    XBL GT: Khan58

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    • #3
      Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

      I'm in complete agreement with what you said. These reasons are why I avoid the Evolution server now unless I'm bored and nobody else will get on the coop server. (Evolution is not ArmA remember)

      It's not much fun for the people on the ground if you just bomb the crap out of a city with a harrier or kill everything in sight with a cobra. It also makes the towns clear extremely fast which is also not much fun.

      You also mention aircraft being shot down by other vehicles and small arms. A lot of people seem to be missing that point. This is not BF2, almost all the vehicles can be destroyed very easily. Helo's can have their engine disabled and still have full armor and fuel. Even the m1a1 can be destroyed and/or disabled with one AT rocket in the right spot. It's not just the air vehicles being used carelessly.

      Like khan said, if you just want to fly then play an air mission on the other server or an armor mission. ArmA is about teamwork and tactics and PATIENCE, not seeing how many vehicles you can use at once and how fast you can blow everything up
      |TG-Irr| Snake Doc



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      • #4
        Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

        I am not certain about the details, but about two days ago I believe I overhead the following in chat:

        : Please recover your downed vehicle/(helo?)
        : No. That's kiddy stuff.

        ArmA will need far more policing than any other FPS due to the continuity of the game and the logic and demands of inter-squad cooperation.

        An admin noted the issue above. I will pay closer attention to poor use of assets in future and communicate issues to admins when possible.

        Control of attack pilots will be a key part of the success of this game. We will need to pay attention to who is in the air and how they are playing.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

          I myself am guilty of wasting resources when it came to aircraft the other night. I decided later on to give it one more shot and ignore pulling up my map unless I was above 500m and I no longer accidentally strayed into AA.

          I do find it extremely annoying when I am in need of gunship support and there are no cobras or AH-6s to be found.

          We're spending too much on attack helos in my opinion as well. After we've cleared each city lately when I've been leading a platoon, we've taken a convoy into the city to bring back every vehicle lost. We usually bring in a large convoy at the beginning of each campaign as well.

          People just need to learn how to use and position armored units tactically. Armor doesn't move into an area without an infantry squad protecting it. Keep armor on the outskirts to blow stuff up, then move in to clear with infantry. Some people also refuse to follow orders when operating armor in an urban environment.

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          • #6
            Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

            This is something I am discussing in the Mod forums: What would your thoughts be on different system of asset management?

            For example:

            Assets available from a dialog similar to the Recruit Soldier interface in v3. A player goes up to the "spawn" area and is given the dialog to requisition a vehicle. They select "Tank or MH-6". The script then processes the request with 3 verification steps:
            1. They have not requested a vehicle in the last (x) amount of time
            2. They are in a squad of at least (y) human players
            3. Their squad leader approves the requisition (similar to join request)

            X and Y are determined by a preset table. For example: A tank may have a 30 minute checkout timer and may require 5 human players, while a little-bird may have a 5 minute checkout timer and require 2 human players.

            All vehicles have a 30 minute timer after their destruction and then they are removed from the map. This makes it possible for me to recover my downed vehicle or potentially even someone else's if I can't pass the verification steps, but keeps the server cleaned up for performance reasons.

            Pros:
            Limits are now placed on vehicles, especially higher-end attack vehicles that ensures the players requesting those vehicles are in a squad and the squad leader has approved their use of those vehicles.

            The checkout timer is specific to the individual, but not to a vehicle. If I checkout a tank, then I better be sure and use it correctly as I won't get ANY other vehicles for 30 minutes. If this bothers me I might be better off taking a HMMV with a much shorter timer.

            Cons:
            Recovery missions are now much less rewarding as new vehicles can be requisitioned if the verification steps are met.


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            • #7
              Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

              Originally posted by RazersEdge View Post
              I myself am guilty of wasting resources when it came to aircraft the other night. I decided later on to give it one more shot and ignore pulling up my map unless I was above 500m and I no longer accidentally strayed into AA.
              But the difference between you and the others we are referring to, is you man up to your mistake and learn from it and try to make it right(returning vehicles ,etc).
              |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

              XBL GT: Khan58

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              • #8
                Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                @Shiner-

                I really like where you are going with this overall. The only concerns I have with use of the y variable is the still-buggy squad system. I'd say that 1 out of 4 to 5 times players have a hard time joining my squad and once out of ten someone cannot join no matter what. If I cannot resolve either of the above by changing request location/vehicle, min/maxing squad lists, or even starting a new squad a disconnet/re-connect usually works but I just wanted to addresss it.

                So 30 minutes and a once repairable/recoverable vehicle is gone forever or just respawns back at the base? If the former, too short I think. I am fairly adamant on recovering vehicles, but depending on the circumstances (downed chopper in the middle of a hostile zone) this may take longer than 30 RL minutes. We may need to finish clearing an objective before we can undertake recovery ops...I like the idea of removing the vehicles at some point, but think 30 mins might be too short. If the latter, if it needs to be done for server performance reasons I can understand but otherwise I am against this.

                Personally, I think I'm in favor of zero vehicle respawns (but everything is repairable) with the only exception being the civ vehicles.
                LoyalGuard

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                • #9
                  Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                  @Shiner,

                  I like your general concept. Create a script based system that forces compliance rather than try to hope for education on a huge open server.

                  If we try to enforce, we become hard-asses and no one wants to be around us. I call those guys "self appointed asset cops".

                  If we can develop a mod or a script that requires "Due process", then we are funnling people into a system that can only develop discipline. Develop. Not hope for.

                  I always prefer a creation of a funneling system over a hope that people will comply. This way, no one has to get rude with new people and new people can find their place or leave. (when all things are equal).

                  Shiner. Who has the skills to build something like this for us? We need people with the scripting skills engaged directly in this thread before we just start spouting off ideas. after all, i want tio know if the ideas are easy (or even possible) to implement.

                  Who is this "talent" in TG?
                  Sleepdoc

                  My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                  (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                  I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                    I am capable of implementing those changes, but I'm in the process of adding a second job (inside my existing company) that has left me with very little time to invest in this.

                    I have a big work project I'm tackling over the Holiday and on my vacation, but if I get the inspiration and some free time, I will work on a prototype of my "Vehicle Requisition System".


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                    • #11
                      Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                      @Shiner

                      I believe we have to be very careful about implementing things of this nature. These 'changes' seem to me like they are unrealistic. We don't want to start making ARMA another BF2. If what your saying is that the requisition is made and the vehicals are spawed at our base then this may be something that the game can use. Last thing I want to see is a keystroke combination and then a cobra magically appears wherever your squad may be at that time. I'd like to keep this game as real as it gets.

                      Also, I find it rather exciting and rewarding to accomplish a recovery mission. It's all part of the ARMA realism. PLEASE NO MORE BF2! ;)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                        Originally posted by ocosme View Post
                        @Shiner

                        I believe we have to be very careful about implementing things of this nature. These 'changes' seem to me like they are unrealistic. We don't want to start making ARMA another BF2. If what your saying is that the requisition is made and the vehicals are spawed at our base then this may be something that the game can use. Last thing I want to see is a keystroke combination and then a cobra magically appears wherever your squad may be at that time. I'd like to keep this game as real as it gets.

                        Also, I find it rather exciting and rewarding to accomplish a recovery mission. It's all part of the ARMA realism. PLEASE NO MORE BF2! ;)
                        2 things.

                        @ocosme

                        Yep. at the base. not anywhere in the field. and I don't think Shiner implied it any other way. but good to say it specifically.

                        @Shiner.

                        Wait. lets not start implemetnating anything yet, unless you just want to experiment. but dont you think we should start a thread, from the top, whose sole purpose is to present an "initial" mod design, and then let peple have at it for a while and see if we can get a better over all design of the system before you start generating the code????

                        Did you see my comms procedural post? I put my sell in front of everyone, and then theya ll had input (and we are still refining the design) toward a better final design. And we still need admin buy in (I think you are in the ranks...right? but you still need strag and others to buy in or imoplementation will never happen)

                        1. Start a well defined - top level thread.

                        2. Present your problem and proosed solution.

                        3. ask for better ideas.

                        4. let the conversation flesh itsefl out

                        5. lead to a refined final design.

                        6. Get a mandate from the admin team across the board.

                        7. Develop the mod.

                        8. Test the mod.

                        9. Roll out.


                        ORDER MATTERS!

                        : ) Love where this is going.........
                        Last edited by Sleepdoc; 07-03-2007, 06:42 PM.
                        Sleepdoc

                        My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                        (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                        I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                          I like the idea of the requisition requirements, but I dislike the fact that vehicles are no longer persistant.. I'd like to see somewhat of a compromise between the two.. For example..

                          Keep the requisition system, but instead of requisitioning an asset, you're requisitioning a rank/role.. So only LB pilots can fly LB's, and only Cobra pilots can pilot Cobra's.. and so on... The assets are fixed, so they still need to be recovered, but not just anyone can hop in and fly them..

                          There's still no requirement for points; just a few consenting people to team up with and a squad leader to grant the request.
                          TG Regular
                          TGU Staff
                          ShackTac FNG





                          TGU Rotary Wing Instructors
                          Evil Koala
                          LeftSkidLow

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                          • #14
                            Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                            I like the class idea, restricting loadouts to specific classes is a good idea imo. That way you can tell who at base is an actual pilot lol. I think it would need to be made possible for ingame class changes then though.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Evolution Mission Vehicle Etiquette Part 2

                              When I joined the server last night, all 3 engie kits were taken.. NP
                              I grabbed a medic kit and asked a squad in TS which city they were attacking. Dolores was the response. Cool, again NP. Im joining in the beginning of the round, sort of...

                              But the load time was taking forever...???

                              I finally get in , hit the map to minimize the "breifing pad" and move the GPS.. To see that there are a bunch of vehicles already left in Corazol.. The AA is up at Corazol... and Cayo still needs to be cleared.

                              The people in the server said it (Cayo)was cleared but the "Capture Officer" marker is still up.. So I grabbed a humvee and drive down to Cayo to find it is still very much under enemy control.. Was killed very quickly because I figured it might have one or two enemy there.. I came back to kill 15 enemy with the help of Switch and Evil K... We cleared alot of enemy from Cayo. The three of us recovered a bunch of vehicles from Cayo.

                              In that time Corazol was cleared... ???...
                              Then in chat I notice some are attacking Pita... Again... ???

                              Vehicles left through out the map + little to no teamwork + people attacking cities far down the list = Alot of enemy AI spawned = LAGGY server + unhappy players.
                              theeANGELofDEATH(Steam/Origin)
                              E Pluribus Unum
                              Sarcasm is just another free service I offer
                              Si vis pacem, para bellum .. Molon Labe

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