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BIS: Hear Our Cries!

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  • BIS: Hear Our Cries!

    And what are these cries about? The AI. It's the most UNrealistic aspect of the game (o noes!). With X-Ray Vision and pinpoint accuracy these super-soldiers leave players sometimes frustrated and thinking "How the *deleted-expletive* did I die?" or "What a *deleted-expletive* hack shot!" or simply "*deleted-expletive* *deleted-expletive* *deleted-expletive*." Based on the game's AI and the games physics I have come up with a rough idea of the AI's shooting tactics.

    The AI NOW
    -Spotted at 500+ meters
    -Observes for a split second to identify the target (which is lame)
    -Within 500 meters he prepares a SINGLE shot or burst
    -Takes 10-15 seconds to prepare
    -Fires with 99% accuracy

    That basically represents a sharpshooter, we don't want AI to do that! So what I have proposed instead would be an alternate system to make it more realistic or at least [email protected]$h0t.

    My AI IN THE FUTURE
    -No X-Ray (somehow...)
    -Spotted in the open at 700-500 meters
    -Target is 500+ AI observes, marksmen engage (snipers)
    -Target is 500-400 AI takes notice and is now under COMBAT
    -Target is 400-200 AI take INACCURATE shots at slow rates of fire, the player should notice a bullets skipping around his location and if luck would have it one or two hitting his body
    -Target is 200-100 AI begin to increase rate of fire perhaps take cover or fall back if needed, etc.
    -Target is 100+ more accurate fire begins, people will die!

    That would be a target spotted in the open, now if he is spotted in the trees...

    -Target is spotted at 100-200 meters
    -In the first 5-10 seconds AI open fire with inaccurate shots and take cover if in the open
    -Somewhere in a 10-20 second window the shots become steadily more accurate as the AI begin to dial in their sights
    -20 seconds plus the AI are in better cover taking accurate shots on the person or persons spotted in the treeline

    Now if within 50 meters a target is spotted...(ambush)

    -Within in 0-5 seconds AI begin frantic inaccurate fire at high rates in hopes to kill the target
    -After about 5 seconds the AI begin to take cover and flee if need be turning around every once and awhile to fire a short burst

    This would lead to more situations where someone would say, "I'm pinned down, need backup!" as opposed too "Yeah, I'm dead, what a *deleted expletive* hackshot."

    So, I'm open to suggestions or discussion!

  • #2
    Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

    hmmmm.. i was actually thinking that the AI infantry should be MORE deadly! :icon_lol:


    -No more jogging towards that hill on that city's perimeter where BLUFOR armor is known to be.
    -No more going prone in the open field... run to cover instead!
    -No more running to a downed AI guy - I swear... Dead AI guys are like some sort of irresistible bait to the living AI guys.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

      Given that these guys are sited between 200 and 400m (most of em) its not unrealistic to get popped by AI that sees you a distance off without them first going through a whole mag.

      While I do agree with the X ray vision flaw, in general the AI's deadliness is only due to them noticing human players as they stumble around corners or through woods.

      More importantly -- I'm up for installing the super secret awesome AI cheat patch. Code name PvP. The drones on the PvP maps are way uberer than standard ai.
      |TG|Switch

      Better known as:
      That noob who crashed the chopper.
      That noob who ran over the mine.
      That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
      That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

        No Debate,

        Before I comment, please note that it is nice to see guys like you come in and start immediately putting lots of energy into play on the TG server. The other day, I hadn't seen you before. Now your coming on strong. We need more of this. I like the intense arrivals that are hungry to learn. I see myself as the same. And I still have a ton to learn.

        Now.....

        Please take note of Whiskeys comment. His comment, in concert with yours, "represents" something that I have experienced. I went from your perspective to Whiskeys perspective, in about 4 weeks..... Let me please explain.

        When I first started playing ArmA, I felt that the AI were superhuman. I had all those "explicatives" you speak of going off in my head. My time in mission usually lasted less than one minute into the first contact with the enemy. sometimes, I never even saw them. I just died.

        Now run ahead 4 weeks to last night.

        Last night my first squad of 4 plus me (Gogeta, COZ, Ivan the Bad, and Atomic Dog) infiltrated a heavily armed city, took out the radio tower, killed about 15 enemy soldiers, and then extracted to base without a single injury (Thanks for teh ride home E-Male!).

        Then we picked up Grunt and Riker and one other (sorry ... cant recall the name right now), and we went into Pita at night. We killed nearly 35 soldiers, one BMP and one T-72 (amazing shots gogetta .. you're my go-to 136 shooter now boy). It took us an additional 2 hours to get to that point before we were, unfortunately, killed by friendly armor fire who did not see us hiding in the bushes when they lit up some enemy infantry near our position.(yes ... it was sad .... but it was not entirely their fault either ... it was partly ours...)

        Whats my point?

        My point is that if you play with an ear for running a safer squad and for a while longer, your perspective will change. Just like mine did. Just like Whiskey's probably did. I don't want to speak for whiskey, but I'm guessing it was harder for him too until he got in the groove..

        What appeared to be "magical kills" in the beginnning of my time in ArmA are now clearly nothing more than a result of a litany of errors on my part.....

        1. Advancing too fast.

        2. Not using my squad to cover flanks during all movements

        3. Not planning all my movements

        4. Not recognizing sectors of danger during certain moves.

        5. Not communicating well

        6. Not coordinating with other uniti in the area (this is what ultimtely got us killed last night after 5 hours in-country)

        7. Not being willing to accept at times, that a plan in motion needs refinement, and therefore a full "falling back" is in order

        8. Not using forward observers enough to ensure a clear picture ahead of (and around) you before going "Loud and Proud" (as Pfiel puts it)

        9. Not making enough effort to stay low and move slow and bound from one cover or concealment position to another. Staying concealed

        10. Not explaining the ROE to your squad well enough in advance of actually getting into the heat. this prevents premature shots that announces your presence.

        I could go on for a while here. The list is very long, but I think you get my point.

        Please understand NoDebate.....

        I'm not suggesting you do all these things. On the contrary. I'm telling you some of the things that I have done to get me and my guys killed in my short time in this simulation. and I'm telling some of the things that we are no longer doing which is starting to lead to survivial and success in our missions.

        The more I play, the more I feel like Whiskey. The more I recognize the shortcomings of the AI. and my own shortcomings. Not their magical abilities.

        Give it time.

        Slow it down.

        control your flanks at all times.

        Keep reminding peolpe how to call all contacts. (compass heading and distance) so your tam can concentrate fire with minimal delay.

        Stay stealthy when appropraite. just cuz you see it doesnt mean you need to light it up.

        don't assume that just becuase a squad appears agitated or a vehicle ispointing at you that you have been discovered. Be sure. and Have ROEs with your guys that give them enough autonomy to shoot when theya re in grave danger without haveing to ask you, and yet prevent them from just indiscrimianntly shooting everytime they get a littel nervous.

        after a fire fight with a full unit, fall back to cover and reposition in a big way to a flank position of the earlier fire fight. Fall back. Fall back. then flank.

        Finally, spend more time under the command of strong squad leaders who embody these rules in their command style. Pfeil and John_C immediately come to mind.

        I hope you stick with it. I'm guessing your going to be one of our next squad leaders and we are running a wee bit short on those right now.

        All the best,

        Glenn




        This is just my opinion Nodeabte.
        Sleepdoc

        My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

        (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

        I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

          In ArmA, just as in BF2 or any shooter, the key is to limit your exposure. By that I mean reduce the angles from which you can be shot. It's actually pretty easy and comes naturally quite quickly. Basically you always want to keep the enemy where you can see them - in front of you. You do this using two things, 1) Terrain (buildings, hills, trees, etc) and 2) Situational Awareness - what's already been cleared - where is the 'safe zone'.

          If I know everything west of the road has been cleared, then I know I only have to worry about being shot from 180 (i.e. from the east). If I then stay against a wall on the north side of a building, I only have to worry about 90 (i.e. to the north of the building and west of the road). If I tell a a squadmate to watch the north, then I only have to worry about the 45 in front of me. Well whadya know - now I won't get shot by someone I don't see!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

            I'm in agreement with the original poster on this one... whether it's realistic or not, if it's made too hard... it becomes not fun... the AI needs to be toned down a bit...granted this can be done on dedicated servers with a proper config, but finding the right balance is hard...

            here's an example... yesterday, I took my squad through some thick woods, all the way around the other side of a enemy camp, I of course had to keep stopping and letting the AI catch up, and go find a stuck one on occasional.

            So after 30 minutes of getting into a tactical position, I order the squad prone then to stop... while I low crawled up in thick bushes, I got to the edge, stayed in the bushes... I pull up my binos, and look at the camp, one lone guard is walking a route, away from me, he stops, turns 180 degrees and fires 2 shots at about 400 meters with an AK47... dead... all that work and I'm dead, I assume (jokingly) my binos must of gave off a reflexion...

            that may friends is bad AI...and needs to be fixed and/or addressed... I hear about new people buying and playing this game and hating it...just because it's too hard...

            thats my 2 cents.
            Magnum |TG-18th|


            We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

              wow really? that's crazy... I bet it was your friendly AI doing something to give you away! I've never seen anything like that! I usually see the bots being fairly ignorant of the situation... like the guy cut down around the 2:14 mark in this video (or the rest of the armor-charging infantry in the video for that matter).

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                Magnum,

                I have never ever ever seen anything like that yet. I can get my crew within 100 meters ofthe enemy and they are compeltely unaware of my presence.

                I think whiskey hit the nail on the head. I'm guessing your AI did something to give your position away. My human members dont usually do that.

                but this make a good point. this game isn't just for us who want to play "Human only coop", which is what I play. I dont scerw around with friendly AI execpt for teh most mundane of functions. you are obviously playing coop with AI. So if that doesn't work well, then that aspect of the game deserves attention as you have pointed out. I'm sure I would use freidnly AI more as well if they had half a brain.

                I simply don't play with AI working with me. But i can see if that is the part of the game that you would want to play with, they would ned a lot of work. I imagine they would need a "go stealthy" mode and a "go assulat" mode to ensure they use quiet techniques and get alittel smarter.

                sorry that aspect of the game is frustrating you.

                Glenn
                Sleepdoc

                My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                  @Sleepdoc

                  I completely agree with your assessment. The A.I is very imtimidating at first because they can be extremely accurate with weapons. The trick is to see them first before they see you. I found out that stealthy tactics work very well in ARMA to accomplish this.

                  @Magnum
                  What Magnum described has to be a fluke. I've never seen the A.I behave in that mannor. They usually have no clue your there within 200 m separation and prone.

                  @Nodebate
                  I actually would like to see the AI behave more realistically. The biggest problem with them is not finding appropriate cover when fired at. All you have to do is press "I" key and see a list of the top 10 scorers. Usually there are a few guys with 40 something kills and less then 5 deaths (infantry). This tells me the A.I is actually too easy at times but I like some of the senarios you listed pending the A.I distance. I think if we make any changes to A.I difficulty, it should be when they are 500m and out. The scripting should include A.I laying cover fire so other A.I units can get in position to attack.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                    The AI setting on the server has been adjusted extensively to try and find the right balance between moron and x-ray marksman. I do think there could be improvements from BIS in this area, but I'm pretty sure they are doing their best to balance the cpu cost of the AI and with the experience.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                      If only there were a way to have human players fight human players.

                      Here's to dreaming.
                      |TG|Switch

                      Better known as:
                      That noob who crashed the chopper.
                      That noob who ran over the mine.
                      That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
                      That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                        I've been reading your replies and appreciate the input now to throw in several new things.

                        @Sleepdoc, I've been playing OFP since the demo came out 5 years ago and I have been playing ArmA since the English Demo in November. I've been around for awhile just unable to play on the TG servers! (Silly pre-1.08 era). Secondly, perhaps all the speak of how [email protected] the AI is misleading people to believe that they are [email protected], where in reality they're just flawed in different areas (I typed this up before coffee at 5:30 in the morn ^_^). I'll restate my ideas and make them more clear. Good suggestions by the way! Reminds me of my old training group from the Raven Shield days. :)

                        @Switch, IMO, the day ArmA goes massive PVP is the day it fails, the game was built for massive open ended cooperative operations.

                        @All, restating what I have said, look again! Below!

                        Ok, the issue here is not hack-shots, it's fire fights. Fire fights with the AI currently end within 10 seconds with the AI putting a bullet through your head, or you using a scoped rifle to put a bullet through their head. This isn't very appealing to me. I would like to see the AI engage in (sometimes extended) fire fights. No more 1 shot kills, no more iron sight snipers, I want these guys to be shooting at me not preparing the one shot kill. So to refer back to my loose outline of the current and future AI.

                        The AI NOW
                        -Spotted at 500+ meters, prone sometimes helps, not always
                        -Observes for a split second to identify the target (which is lame)
                        -Within 500 meters he prepares a SINGLE shot or burst
                        -Takes 10-15 seconds to prepare
                        -Fires with 99% accuracy

                        That basically represents a sharpshooter, we don't want AI to do that! If you're a soldier, you're a soldier not a sniper with an iron sight!

                        My AI IN THE FUTURE
                        -No X-Ray (somehow...)
                        -Spotted in the open at 700-500 meters
                        -Target is 500+ AI observes, marksmen engage (snipers)
                        -Target is 500-400 AI takes notice and is now under COMBAT
                        -Target is 400-200 AI take INACCURATE shots at slow rates of fire, the player should notice a bullets skipping around his location and if luck would have it one or two hitting his body
                        -Target is 200-100 AI begin to increase rate of fire perhaps take cover or fall back if needed, etc.
                        -Target is 100+ more accurate fire begins, people will die!

                        That would be a target spotted in the open, now if he is spotted in the trees...

                        -Target is spotted at 100-200 meters
                        -In the first 5-10 seconds AI open fire with inaccurate shots and take cover if in the open
                        -Somewhere in a 10-20 second window the shots become steadily more accurate as the AI begin to dial in their sights
                        -20 seconds plus the AI are in better cover taking accurate shots on the person or persons spotted in the tree line

                        AI in the cities is basically, keeping them out of the water. I agree with Switch that if you are shot in the city, it is usually because you are stumbling about.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                          Originally posted by NoDebate View Post
                          IMO, the day ArmA goes massive PVP is the day it fails, the game was built for massive open ended cooperative operations.
                          You need to play a night at Shack Tactical. In a BF2 environment, it would fall to pieces; with the organization and motivation of players at Shack Tactical, player-versus-player fighting is a really beautiful sight.
                          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~
                          I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~
                          Feel free to quote me. ~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                            I have to say I would prefer playing against other players than the AI. Playing the AI is like playing checkers you have a limited amount of strategy and play is very one dimensional, always moving forward. Playing like minded human opponents is like playing chess. Each piece has a role, each move is made to setup the end game and the movement is multidimensional as the game progresses.

                            Currently we simply go from one city to the next, one objective to the next because the forces defending them are not linked. We are simply trading pieces that move one square at a time because thats all we can do. There are no real consequences other than losing the mission or having to respawn and try again. There is no worrying about what the AI might do if you move in a certain way. There is no real mental aspect within the game.

                            I want to have to think just as much as I have to shoot. Right now the challenge is simply surviving as you assault a position while being outnumbered 10 to 1. Sure we might be playing with other players and can only take so many bullets but how does this differ from any other first person shooter? Sure the map is huge but going from one city to the next does not take advantage of the size but merely allows us to move on without having to wait for a map to load.

                            I want an opponent that is able to exploit a weakness. I want decisions to be made that effect more than just whether or not we have to try an assault again but whether or not we have to fight for our virtual lives. We should have to think about our actions on a larger scale. Will failing to drive home an assault and allowing what's left of the opposing force to escape cost us later on? Will cutting off supply lines place the enemy in a desperate situation and force his hand? Are weaknesses and mistakes exploitable? These are situations I want to worry about as I am playing. I want to know that securing a bridge is more than simply achieving an objective I want to know that there was a larger purpose for my actions.

                            Of course someone may be creating a mission right now that involves such dynamic actions by the AI but as of right now the only way we are going to see the kind of action I have stated above is against other players. Right now the forces in Corazol could care less about what is going on in Ortega. Hell, the forces in one part of Ortega could care less about what is going on in the other part of Ortega.

                            The enemy can shoot as straight or as crooked as possible but without an overall meaning to it all there really isn't any point to the mission other than killing them before they kill you. Sure there is some satisfaction in clearing an area without dying but after you do that the only thing to do is move on to the next city but maybe this time you will go by helicopter or boat. Obviously this is just my opinion but until the AI can do something more than just patrol PvP with the right people will offer a much more challenging and rewarding experience and something I hope we can move towards sooner rather than later because I know we have the right people.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: BIS: Hear Our Cries!

                              The STUPID AI who can shoot through fog, bushes etc is a pain.
                              NoDebate you raise a point I had not considered in that ArmA could be spoilt if they AI's were removed eg PvP
                              Now I can agree that having the AI's alows for a certain amount of fixed structure to be built in but that is the very thing that could make this adventure repetitive & become a little boring.

                              Aculle01 I agree completely with the senarios you describe if you remove the AI's you allow for unpredictability to swoop in.
                              It then becomes a TACTICIAN -V- TACTICIAN battle which would put a lot more pressure on the skills of the forces engaging.
                              For me the AI's show very little ability to retreat - regroup then attack again.
                              All though I am still enjoying the AI's you know that once you make contact if you go slowly, carefully you will kill them off where as a live opponent would fall back to a more defenable position.

                              Maybe a mixture of the ArmA styles needs to be accommodated as I believe that for PvP to work you need at least min 5+ a side less than that and I think we are better going down the AI route.
                              Time & situation for both I think?

                              Well that's my gonads on the table, smack away

                              Barnaby out
                              "I like a man who grins when he fights"
                              Sir Winston Churchill


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