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  • Using friendly AI on EVO server?

    Yesterday, while myself and 5 or 6 other guys were working very hard and cohesively to move through Paraiso, some one joined the server (no names please .... that is uneccesary) and brought a full squad of freindly AI with him. As we were moving very cuatiously down a road, cross covering in a line-abreast formation, the AI guys just started walking out in the middle of the road, out in front of us. The moment was ruined.

    Now. Here is my question.....

    This is clearly against the SOP. But have we yet defined the actual SOP for limited (if any) use of freindly AI in the TG EVO server? If this is already defined, please point me to it. I don't recall the section.

    My thoughts.

    If you have a squad of 4 or more, the SL may use AI for specific, non combat tasks. Key language here. NON COMBAT TASKS. No taking guys with you into the combat zone unless it is a single AI (like a medic) and you can keep them in the rears of your direction of movement.

    Since i never use AI, I cannot speak with certainty on this next statement. but everytime I encounter friendly AI in EVO, it seems they are hard to keep on a short leash. They do ridiculous things. They walk out in the open, cross lines of fire etc. So it seems to me there is little if any place for friendly AI in TG EVO other than things like recovery of vehicles after the town is cleared, or maybe (MAYBE) a single medic or engineer in a larger squad, kept in the rears, and brought up for their intended purpose only. but not as a combatant.

    I look forward to this dialogue from admins and players alike. I want to hear all the other perspectives. My hope is to more clearly define the line. What are the maximum allowable uses of freindly AI in TG EVO. Specifically ......
    Last edited by Sleepdoc; 08-06-2007, 01:28 PM.
    Sleepdoc

    My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

    (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

    I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

  • #2
    Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

    I've seen this too. But from my personal experience of using AI as combatants, though tricky, they can be reigned in. You have to constantly check their formations and make sure you tell them to be stealthy. This goes a long way for not blowing your cover. In stealth mode it seemed, to me at least, they were less likely to run around in the open and get the squad shot up. Though the only time I really ever used AI as combatants were when I was the only one on the server, or if there were maybe one or two other guys on running repair and recovery ops. It's always more preferable (and enjoyable) to team up with other real players. If the server is populated and one guy isn't playing with the others...just running around with his bots...I'd say that constitutes as lonewolfing and is a breach of the SOPs. But that's just my take on it. I'd definitely like to hear an admin response to this too.

    Good topic!
    | | |

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    • #3
      Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

      The SOP's don't prohibit using AI as far as I know - and the AI can be used in an effective manner, most often to bring up supply convoys. I've even had successful results using them as an advancing infantry line. It's true though, if you are commanding AI, you must constantly ride them - in other words, no combat for you. Finestyle and I once had two AI squads clear an entire town while we sat in tanks (no one else on the server of course).

      The SOP's do prohibit launching an assault within the combat zone without first checking in with channel commanders - basically, ArmA-flavored lone wolfing. This includes launching a solo assault (though often least disruptive), squad assaults (AI) and most especially solo or AI-controlled vehicles and aircraft.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

        If there are 1 or 2 players on the server A.I. can be very valuable as squad members. It's difficult to put exact rulings on this as there are a lot of gray areas. In a nutshell, it is frowned upon to use A.I. as infantry combatants if there are enough players to form a descent squad. Remember, this refers to Infantry players only. Air crews should only have A.I. for gunner positions(like the UH-60) never any additional. Ground vehicle crews can have the A.I. for controlling support vehicles or additional weapon stations. Like Infantry squads, A.I. in Air or Ground squads should not be used for infantry combat.
        |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

        XBL GT: Khan58

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

          Well, plain and simple:

          1- I don't like the use of heavy tanks, unless the town is COMPLETELY overwhelmed by AI and there's no way in hell to breach it (yet to see)

          2- I don't like jets and attack helos, unless the town is COMPLETELY overwhelmed by AI and there's no way in hell to breach it (yet to see). I believe those should ONLY, and ONLY, be used with laser markers and upon CAS calls, and to take the enemy SU down.

          3- I don't like AI, unless, like stated above, you want a medic or AA guy to stick with you to provide cover, giving the limited amount of stuff you can carry.


          The perfect Evo game for me (and the ones I have most fun with), is when there are 2 squads playing together, entering the cities from different sides, using light vehicles only (Humvees and Strykers) and doing it all on foot, getting radio tower down, cap officer and clearing town. The moment I see a tank, a Cobra or even a whole squad of AI, I kinda get pissed off.

          Quick question: why the hell would you like to end the freaking game all by yourself? What good is it to have 293801982308 points on a server that only requires 20 to have full acess to all vehicles and weapons? I just don't get it. Or better yet, what fun is there to slaughter the whole shabang of tanks all by yourself, with a single mouse click??? What's the challenge there? It's just way too easy.

          Evo games can end in a couple hours if the air assets are used. But as for me, I think they should last hours and hours, of tries and retries to cap a city. Add the fact AI is not very clever (doesn't take cover most of times they get shot, they don't use buildings and such to hide, they don't ambush), it just makes the game plain boring.

          I'm 100% for having AI driving repair/fuel/ammo trucks, recovering vehicles, etc, but as for fighting, I hate it.

          That's my opinion!
          |TG-69th|Kevlar



          "Oh I know I don't think I see what I see what I'm thinking."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

            I agree Kevlar with all your points.

            @Sleepdoc,

            If you find a player not willing to participate as part of the established squad or unwilling to part with their A.I. and thus ruining your tactical movements, I would consider them being counterproductive to the team effort and be in clear violation of the rules for teamwork. Ask the player to join your(or the established squad) if they refuse and want to use A.I. on their own that is lonewolfing and not allowed.
            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

            XBL GT: Khan58

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

              A heads up on AI.

              Kiljoy has made a no AI version of EVO. this from the testers,

              * I Like the default parameter of no Ai
              * Connection times have noticeably decreased.
              * And server fps has improved.
              * Alot more ferrying of players back and forth being seen.

              May be usefull to run this version when the server is full.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                I would greatly like to see it running on the Evo server Dec. Would be great to have it for a while and see how it goes.
                |TG-69th|Kevlar



                "Oh I know I don't think I see what I see what I'm thinking."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                  I commented on this in another thread, but want to add something here.

                  For any version of the Evolution mission, unless you plan to have the server set up like a persistant world and the server never crash or reset, you will never finish it with 6 people. Unless you have a packed server, you'd spend a month or more getting through one mission session. It is an awesome concept in gameplay style, but it is HUGE and was designed for use of friendly AI. So I think trying to make it into a human-only mission is a conflict of sorts; good idea, wrong application.

                  I believe that Evolution is just too large to run it humans-only. I also believe that tactical play is possible using friendly AI. I've been practicing it on Evo for some time now. I will say though that nothing beats having 30 people on an Evolution server and completely stomping your way across the island...but ya gotta have 30 people.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                    Sleepdoc et all, thank you for this topic. AI Backup are something I'm not sure how to implement in my persistent TvT world "Domination". Currently they must be purchased using "personal" funds. I won't have a system in-place during the current alpha stage to control how these funds are accumulated, but my idea is to link them as rewards for "teamplay". For example, stealing from EVO repairing a vehicle, transporting troops, healing would all generate small levels of personal funds that can then be used to requisition ai backup.

                    1. To what extent do you see AI Backup as useful and when do they become a hindrance?

                    2. Should AI Backup be purely for supply missions in a TvT setting.. ie they are "setCaptive" and unable to carry weapons?

                    3. Would you say once the server's player population is at a certain level (perhaps 20 players) AI backup can no longer be purchased?


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                      Originally posted by Ut-Oh View Post
                      I commented on this in another thread, but want to add something here.

                      For any version of the Evolution mission, unless you plan to have the server set up like a persistant world and the server never crash or reset, you will never finish it with 6 people. Unless you have a packed server, you'd spend a month or more getting through one mission session. It is an awesome concept in gameplay style, but it is HUGE and was designed for use of friendly AI. So I think trying to make it into a human-only mission is a conflict of sorts; good idea, wrong application.

                      I believe that Evolution is just too large to run it humans-only. I also believe that tactical play is possible using friendly AI. I've been practicing it on Evo for some time now. I will say though that nothing beats having 30 people on an Evolution server and completely stomping your way across the island...but ya gotta have 30 people.
                      I'm not quite sure what you mean here Ut-oh. TG never just has 6 poeple. we have dozens of people move through everyday. sometimes, at night, the server has 12 or 16 people. We typically complete EVO every 3 to 4 days. Every city. Every objective. Minimal use of AI. I have opersonally been present for the silly little dance scene at the end of EVO on TG 4 or so times.

                      Having said this, I'm open to exploring the proper use of AI. but not the use that kills a human groups experience. And so far, I have never seen it.

                      One of the rules is that we do one city at a time. this is to prevent having multiple cities with spawned enemy soldiers, thus limiting the server bloat that can lead to too many "red-links' and freezes. Keeps things running smooth. and as a result, it means AI are highly likely to cross our path while we are working a town.

                      So now we have an issue where if even 6 poeple are playing as a single squad in a single city, and another person starts running an "ALL AI" squad, paths start to cross. And so far, in my short few months experience in ArmA, I have never once seen a group of AI hugging the walls, peeking around corners, providing "bounding overwatch" as technique for eachothers forward movements, or moving cautiously in a line-abreast formation down a road. All I have ever seen is guys running out in the open, crossing lines of fire, and generally functioning without any use of cover or conecalment. and sooner or later, they are doing it right in the path of my squads forward movement.

                      I look forward to seeing AI behaving the right way. but until I see that, I remain skeptical of freindly AI in EVO as a combatant.
                      Sleepdoc

                      My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                      (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                      I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                        Originally posted by Shiner View Post
                        1. To what extent do you see AI Backup as useful and when do they become a hindrance?
                        I can tell you that I am prejiduced at this point in my freidnly AI experience. read my post above. the bottom line for me is that I see no place for freindly AI combatants. the occassional engineer or Medic? sure. but not as combatants. I made my argument for that above.

                        2. Should AI Backup be purely for supply missions in a TvT setting.. ie they are "setCaptive" and unable to carry weapons?
                        You left out "kept in the rears only to be called up to serve their one dimensional purpose and then sent back to the rears"

                        3. Would you say once the server's player population is at a certain level (perhaps 20 players) AI backup can no longer be purchased?
                        nice auto balancing idea.
                        Sleepdoc

                        My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                        (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                        I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                          I have taken towns with 4 or 5 buddies using only transport helos and light armoured vehicles (Humvees and Strykers).

                          If the 6 people are organized enough, yes, it will take a while to get all Sahrani, but it's doable in a couple of days. keyword here is teamwork, mate. Have your buddy cover your 6, always move positions, don't get cornered, you can kill 20+ enemies in a city if you do it right.

                          In lesser and easier words: AI is usefull, but it's not NECESSARY in Evo.
                          |TG-69th|Kevlar



                          "Oh I know I don't think I see what I see what I'm thinking."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                            Sleepdoc, it may have just been my timing, but I've never seen more than 5 or so people on the TG Evo server. That night that we finally got a chance to play some together was the most people I've ever seen on there at one time. The low count was what usually had me joining the other TG server or playing Evo somewhere else...I usually don't join a server with less than 10 people. But if that's not the norm, I stand corrected. I just call em like I see em.

                            I feel that taking the AI out of Evolution changes the game type into something else. The -evolution- that takes place is the rise from private in a squad to a commander with troops under your control that you have earned. Without that, to me, it could be any other co-op mission with respawnable assets. This may just be a case where we have to agree to disagree. No biggie, just different views.

                            What I was looking for here, that I haven't found elsewhere, is to try this with people who really do adhere to tactical gaming; to have leaders with AI teams conducting operations controlled by a central commander. Organized use of friendly AI. I see that there is a lot of prejudice here towards that though. If that doesn't happen, again no biggie. This is still a great community for tactical play. And there's plenty of Evo servers out there so maybe I'll find what I'm looking for someday. I do want to make it clear though that I did not bring this up here to stir up a storm. I just felt that if it was to work, it needed people accustomed to organization and team play.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                              Hey ut-oh. No storm taken. You want to try a differnt way. And I think that is great. If i could see AI working smartly with good leaders running them, might find that an interesting server to join and mess around in there with you.

                              I just think TG is for a particular SOP and I see a lot of forces (and im not talking about you) trying to redefine it to something other than what the admins and the SOPs say it is about.

                              If the Admins change it, to me, its like if my neighbor decides to paint his own house. It's his house. His choice. but when the guests of TG (other players) try to move the defined SOPs, i dont get it. And again. I'm not talking about you.....

                              I play Berserk once in a while. but I don't ask if I can play it on TG.
                              Sleepdoc

                              My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                              (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                              I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                              Comment

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