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  • CAS discussion

    I am started to get a little peeved myself. I like flying the Helos. But some serious issues here.

    1) Squads using their own members to run transport and the pilots NOT being on air.

    2) Squads rarely call for CAS, and even more rarely carry lasers.

    3) CAS in an AH6 is not simply a click of the button. I love hunting Shilkas at Cayo. The desert landscape allows me fly along at about 2 metres and pick them off. Not that easy but very rewarding.

    EVO, in my opinion, should be a joint arms mission. Tanks, air, and infantry of all flavours. I have heard people say if I wanted to fly CAS there are missions on the CO-OP server made for CAS. Well I could be replying that for every CAS mission on the CO-OP server there are 20 infantry missions.

    I know this is not a popular view here but I like EVO being a joint arms operation. not whining about who is killing the most things.
    I got complaints the one day for clearing out heavy armour and tower from Pariso in an AH6. the complaint was simply that I was not leaving enough for the infantry to kill. And I was trying to work with ground...

    What you said about the cobra though is absolutely right. I spent one night flying the cobra solo and raping armour in the towns that we were advancing on. Only about 4 of us on the server though.

    Finally though what I would like to see is some SOPs forcing the ground guys to work with air guys. instead of SOPs forcing air to be neutered slaves to the ground infantry.

  • #2
    Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

    I think you hit something here Toshido. Having heard the complaints against over-use of the air assets, it's fair enough to say that there is an under use of squads and squad members who carry laser. If you want combat pilots to not get antsy and start blowing things up...then give them a reason. If squads aren't utilizing CAS then you can't blame the bored combat pilot for buddying up and taking to the skies. Though, agreeably, the pilot should be in communication with the squad leaders/commanders regardless.
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    • #3
      Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

      Toshido,

      You make valid points. infact, I have recently discussed the SL's responsability to give combat air pilots targets when they get on and request inclusion through the SL.
      Last edited by Sleepdoc; 08-06-2007, 07:04 PM.
      Sleepdoc

      My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

      (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

      I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

        Originally posted by Atomic Dog View Post
        Though, agreeably, the pilot should be in communication with the squad leaders/commanders regardless.
        One problem is that most ground squads I have dealt with simply don't want CAS stealing their kills.
        We talk about real world tactics and strategy here but when it comes to playpeople want the kills. Do you really think any sane infantry squad leader would complain about a cobra pilot that stole a T72 kill from the infantry?

        So with the extreme leash that is actually getting tighter on the pilots soon there will simply be no CAS becasue every time a pilot kills something they will get kicked for violating the SOPs.
        Next step is 1 minute respawns (or quicker) on the MH6 so infantry can fly themselves in and we can say goodbye to all dedicated pilots.

        (that being said I still agree the cobra is rediculous)

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        • #5
          Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

          Originally posted by Sleepdoc View Post
          Toshido,

          You make valid points. infact, I have recently discussed the SL's responsability to give combat air pilots targets when they get on and request inclusion through the SL.

          But....

          What does that have to do with the subject of this thread? Did I miss some connection or did you just create one? Consider making your own top level post if you feel strongly about these issues. They are valid. bot I don't see how they relate to the subject of this thread.....
          Good call Sleep. Apologies for the hijack. Could an admin split the CAS discussion off into it's own thread please? And thank you.
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          • #6
            Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

            Guys the problem with CAS is exactly what you have stated. Toshido you mentioned it is what you like to do and is reward mainly to yourself. If and when the infantry call for CAS is the only time the CAS role benefits the team as well as the team's experience on the server. All other times the CAS role only benefits the pilots experience. At that point why not play on the COOP server or even single player if you pilots feel you are being underused.

            CAS is too powerful for Evolution, it is much more difficult and rewarding for a greater number of players to conduct ground ops without needing a lot of CAS. We want to promote good teamwork and tactics and having individuals flying around in very powerful weapons is not that. Remember there is also a bug with the laser which makes it dangerous to use while prone. There are certain players who can handle the attack helo's responsibly and you are probably one of them, Toshido, but too many others just fly recklessly destroying anything and everything and not stopping to pick up their own mess.
            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

            XBL GT: Khan58

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            • #7
              Re: CAS discussion

              I think point 1 is something that needs to be looked at. A few times while I have been playing people have flown themselves out to the squad even when there has been 1 or more dedicated pilots, then they just leave the helicopter there.

              Its just a matter of patience, and its easy enough to just wait for the pilots to come pick you up.
              "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, sweat and tears"




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              • #8
                Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
                CAS is too powerful for Evolution...
                I kinda disagree here. As an exercise in simulation and real world tactics I think it's important to bring our pilots into the teamwork phase (aside from transport) of major operations. We know a cobra can essentially pwn the entire map on it's own. But...we also know that squads get themselves in sticky situation where in real life they would otherwise call for CAS, but in EVO they instead die, respawn, return to the fight. Some people are devout pilots. They live, eat, breath and...well...piloting. I think they SHOULD have a place on EVO. But their place should be in line with our goal here at TG which is to simulate real world tactics while using teamwork and communication. No squad should be so over confident that thought of dying is the easier choice than hunkering down and calling a little support.

                I, for one, will make it a point to start carrying laser markers with me more often for you bored pilots.
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                • #9
                  Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                  Originally posted by Atomic Dog View Post
                  I kinda disagree here. As an exercise in simulation and real world tactics I think it's important to bring our pilots into the teamwork phase (aside from transport) of major operations. We know a cobra can essentially pwn the entire map on it's own. But...we also know that squads get themselves in sticky situation where in real life they would otherwise call for CAS, but in EVO they instead die, respawn, return to the fight. Some people are devout pilots. They live, eat, breath and...well...piloting. I think they SHOULD have a place on EVO. But their place should be in line with our goal here at TG which is to simulate real world tactics while using teamwork and communication. No squad should be so over confident that thought of dying is the easier choice than hunkering down and calling a little support.

                  I, for one, will make it a point to start carrying laser markers with me more often for you bored pilots.
                  100% agree with you man. It's just for every good, respectful CAS pilot there are 4 or 5 smacktards.

                  When I SL or have a convoy(ask Sam Hoy) I always request CAS cover. Now I may not have many targets, but I like knowing they're there. It's one of the most immersing elements to get pinned down by an enemy tank, call in the fly boys and watch the fireworks. The problem is that doesn't happen often enough for most pilots and they do their own thing which leads to the ground forces having to wait until the pilot needs a reload to move or a lot of TK's. Also many of the pilots are fore lack of a better term, idiots, when it comes to flying into hostile zones. They do just that, fly directly into enemy held territory get shot down and then grab another helo because it is impossible to retrieve their original. Those are the guys the rules are meant to stop.

                  My advice, be patient, be vocal. Remind the SL's you are there, keep the lines of communication open. Sometime's SL's forget, sometimes the squads are too close for CAS. Pick a night guys and I'll get an organized Evo session setup and we'll have plenty of use for CAS.
                  |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                  XBL GT: Khan58

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                  • #10
                    Re: CAS discussion

                    Tuesdays are looking good for me. :)
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                    • #11
                      Re: CAS discussion

                      I believe that our SOP's, in combination with the nature of EVO, will always frustrate the combat airpilot. Its just too little action too infrequently to keep it intersting for those guys under the current SOPs. But sadly, without the current SOPs, then its just a house of cards, ruled by smacktards.

                      So yea Toshido. sadly for guys like you, the leash has gotten pretty short. I wish i had a solution, but I don't. The Best SLs can do is include you guys for meaningful squad support runs when you guys announce your presence.
                      Sleepdoc

                      My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                      (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                      I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Using friendly AI on EVO server?

                        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
                        Guys the problem with CAS is exactly what you have stated. Toshido you mentioned it is what you like to do and is reward mainly to yourself. If and when the infantry call for CAS is the only time the CAS role benefits the team as well as the team's experience on the server. All other times the CAS role only benefits the pilots experience. At that point why not play on the COOP server or even single player if you pilots feel you are being underused.

                        CAS is too powerful for Evolution, it is much more difficult and rewarding for a greater number of players to conduct ground ops without needing a lot of CAS. We want to promote good teamwork and tactics and having individuals flying around in very powerful weapons is not that. Remember there is also a bug with the laser which makes it dangerous to use while prone. There are certain players who can handle the attack helo's responsibly and you are probably one of them, Toshido, but too many others just fly recklessly destroying anything and everything and not stopping to pick up their own mess.
                        Couldn't have said better.

                        Toshido, I was one of the guys complaining about you being in Pariso that day. You have omited some facts by simply saying "i was just taking heavy armour". Other than clearing the "heavy armour", you took out the town antenna before any human player could get a kill, you killed BMPs, UAZs and BRDMs (which are pretty much 1-shot kill from M136) and you had more than 30 kills on your score when ground people had about 5. So you weren't just clearing armour, even if you didn't mean to, or didn't realise, you were clearing the whole freaking town! I can say it because I was there on the ground, and every single corner I picked, all I saw was dead bodies everywhere and smoking vehicles. I am pretty sorry to ruin your fun there bro, but at that exact time, you were ruining roughtly 5 or 6 people's fun that were playing on the ground.

                        The fact is: until ArmA develops some smarter AI, air vehicles ARE overpowered and you can't state otherwise, just look at the facts. You, as a good pilot, pretty much cleared a town with an AH6, imagine a Cobra! ArmA AI rarely uses stingers, tanks rarely shoot you while on air, pretty much what kills you are Shilkas, and once you take em out, you have a green flag to rape the city.

                        I am a pilot, I flew in BF42, I flew in Desert Combat, I flew in Battlefield 2, I flew in Desert Conflict, I flew on Project Reality... ****, just take a look at my sig here in the forums! A pilot wearing Oakleys! I LOVE FLYING attack vehicles. But in ArmA, the most flying I'll do is transporting people around, cuz I know if I want to, in a couple of hours I'll get the hang of flying attack helos like you do, and I'll pretty much be able to clear towns almost by myself.

                        If I wanted to fly bad bad bad, I'd do what was suggested. Download some custom single player missions, or pretty much fly in Coop missions. If you REALLY want to fly in Evolution, then just use good old common sense. If no one has laser markers and ****, then go to a town, take some armour pieces out and LEAVE. Don't kill it all, SHARE. And most of all, don't kill the antenna! One of the things that piss me off most are vehicles taking the antenna out. Running an M1 inside a town and smoking the antenna 500m away isn't cool at all. I wouldn't complain if you killed a couple armour in Pariso that day, thing is you killed the whole shabang.

                        About laser markers, I don't get em all the time, but if people ask me, I'll do it. Ask RazersEdge. Every time he's on server and wants to fly, I'll grab a laser marker and mark some stuff for him. You can't just expect people to grab laser markers and mark every single armour piece. If you don't ask, no one will do. But if you do ask, I can't see any experienced TG players like me, Khan, Razer, Grunt, and so many more great players we have on this community, to deny your request.

                        Sorry for the long post, and if you read it till now, thanks.

                        - Kev
                        |TG-69th|Kevlar



                        "Oh I know I don't think I see what I see what I'm thinking."

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                        • #13
                          Re: CAS discussion

                          If Kevlars post is a true reflection of what went on that day, then Toshidos opening comment holds no credability ...

                          I am started to get a little peeved myself. I like flying the Helos. But some serious issues here.
                          Toshido. I am trying to see your side. but Kevlars post tells me that you may have omitted some facts from the situation. My squad of humans on the ground, and their right to a tactical expereince at tactical gamer trumps any hard hitting lone wolf's attack helicopter pilots rights all day long. All day long.

                          Nothing is more insulting and disheartening then spending 90 minutes carefully maneuvering a squad into position for a tower take down only ot have some one in a helicopter come up and shoot it down. I have had this done to me and my squad. It makes us not want to ever return to the server or the game. all for one mans personal selfish moment of overpowered, non strategic, non tactical glory.
                          Sleepdoc

                          My typos are legendary. I choose not to correct them as a form of unique signature

                          (and because forum spell checkers are a hassle) : )

                          I actually spell just fine. But my typing skills are the pits.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: CAS discussion

                            Right. I agree Sleep. What we need to do here is find a constructive way to turn an Infantry vs Pilots pattern into a Infantry + CAS pattern. My opinion is that everyone has a right to a tactical experience here at TG so long as it involves tactics, communication and teamwork. Pilots need to learn to be patient and wait for CAS orders. Infantry squads really need to start helping pilots get into the operations. There needs to be a coming together as opposed to a splitting apart.

                            My concern is the reason that Infantry squads don't call for CAS as often as they should is because there is no fear of death in EVO. I'd love to see the respawn time bumped up to say...oh...5 minutes.
                            | | |

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                            • #15
                              Re: CAS discussion

                              My concern is the reason that Infantry squads don't call for CAS as often as they should is because there is no fear of death in EVO. I'd love to see the respawn time bumped up to say...oh...5 minutes.
                              I've thought about respawn times quite a bit in Evo and how they would effect gameplay. I am somewhat convinced that that just increasing length will do limited good in improving communication and tactics, we would still have lonewolves, and friendly-fire but with longer waits in between. Certainly there is a direct relationship between respawn time and value of life, but what is the cut off point?
                              I think a far better solution to simply increasing spawn time across the board would be to make it so you could only respawn as a squad. That is to say that you can't re enter the game until your entire unit has been killed and which point you respawn as a squad. Some advantages of this include, less strain on the transport pilots, better unit cohesion, punishment for players which rush ahead of their element into hostile territory and get killed. Of course there are draw backs, such as, AFK players and single man squads.

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