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  • TvT and COOP....a discussion

    The poll says our community is about evenly split. However, I was curious as to why people feel the way they do about the two types of gameply, respawns aside.

    I prefer COOP. The main reason is it easier to get immersed in a COOP in my opinion. The reason I feel it is easier to get immersed, is that the A.I. does not try to exploit the game engine nor does the A.I. forgo its missions simply because it does not want to be the first to die. In my experience, even the most well planned TvT will turn into a snipe fest given the opportunity with equipment. If the equipment is not the there, you still cannot perform many of the standard military maneuvers that you could against A.I. because TvT become guerrilla warfare. Yes the opponents think more critically, but without a strict scenario TvT will always degrade into either who gets to uber snipe point first or lone guerrilla tactics as you see players begin to value their lives more than the objective. I'm not suggesting a lemming rush to to impending doom, but in every TvT(I'm guilty too) players sometimes hold back or don't committ fully to a tough attack as they rather be the last one alive and slink into a more guerrilla style conflict for personal enjoyment. I understand it is game and personal enjoyment should be #1 priority, but I think the game is so close to a sim personal sacrifice should be a bigger part of the TvT experience and I don't think it is. The scoreboard always seems to play a big role. I feel in COOP people accept their fate better and are more willing to perform dangerous roles with the mission success as their primary focus, while the desire to best your fellow man gets in the way in TvT.

    An analogy would be American football games on consoles(Madden or NCAA). I played football all the way through college. I really love the game. However, I'm a bit of a purist. I was an all-American offensive lineman so I really enjoy the inside running game even in the console game. Most people that play don't. Most people that play these games against another human being prefer the win at all costs mentality and drop any semblance of a real football. Every play is chosen not for the balance or the potential gain, but for the game's design flaws that allow more success on certain types of plays with certain combinations of players, exploits(I've met several guys employed by EA/Tiburon who actually get paid to discover and validate these kind of things). Most players do the endless drop back or rollout bomb and go for it on all 4th downs, go for the two point conversion, onside kick, etc. I on the other hand enjoy all sorts of running plays and passing plays. I keep my QB in the pocket as much as possible. I punt, I kick field goals. I actually do a normal kick off. I don't choose plays based on the game engines inability to process good defense, I choose based on what would be picked in that situation given the players I have. It's not a question of skill, it's that I choose to play a more realistic football game and playing against the CPU gives me that opportunity more than playing against a living breathing opponent. The same with ArmA, I enjoy a more conventional style battle including support roles.

    I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or debate which is better, I'm just curious as to why people like one game play type over the other. Every other thread on these topics has been a debate, so I thought we could actually start a thread that would be constructive with further mission/scenario selection by focusing on what people are looking for in the different gameplay types.
    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

    XBL GT: Khan58


  • #2
    Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

    It's my belief that co-op is generally more entertaining for the individual players, but TvT is more entertaining for the community. In co-op, timing is important for players who are joining in. Many co-op missions simply don't allow late arrivals, or put them at such a disadvantage (having to travel long distances across risky territory) that it is not worth the trouble. TvT, or 'evolving' missions like Evolution solve this problem, and provide much more of a revolving door for incoming players.

    TvT and other evolving missions also seem more immersive to me in a way because they are more realistic - you have to take care of your assets, and sometimes you have to clean up after a mission. This adds a certain level of reality to the game.

    I do enjoy both styles of play, but think it's critical that we focus more on creating the revolving door scenario so as to provide the consistency that newcomers and latecomers benefit from. While we are still building the community, it's important to always provide a game for anyone joining up, at any time. I certainly do not want Co-op to dissapear, but think it best reserved for planned or organized events and squad practice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

      There are seveal reasons why I prefer coop over TvT but the main reason is that I joined TG to play with my fellow TG'ers. Sure, when playing against TG'ers as opfor, I am still playing with them, but, I prefer to all play on the same team...it's here where we see some great teamwork, strategy, and fun come to fruition. I think ArmA coop is a great game platform to do this.

      The things that I hate about TvT such as playability during low server populations, the "twitch" factor, etc. are mostly eliminated in ArmA coop. This game plays very well with a small group (that doesn't have to be divided and make for smaller teams), twitch isn't a big factor (30-somethings like me can still be effective).

      I guess one of the other reasons for prefering coop, although kinda silly, is that I don't like to play opfor (in any game). I like playing as U.S. or U.K or other "allied" nation...it makes it easier for me to immerse/identify with my role.

      Mosely has some great points about newly arrives players to be able to JIP...I too think that is important...but, I think that works even better in a coop environment...there is less worry about team size and skill balance, there is no confusion as to "which side you are on". I think you'll have the transport hassles regardless of the game mode.

      Of course, when Shiner debuts "Domination", I may change my tune...but until now I have't really seen a good TvT ArmA mission...until that time, I think I will lean towards coop.
      LoyalGuard

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      • #4
        Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        The poll says our community is about evenly split. However, I was curious as to why people feel the way they do about the two types of gameply, respawns aside.
        Good thread.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        I prefer COOP. The main reason is it easier to get immersed in a COOP in my opinion. The reason I feel it is easier to get immersed, is that the A.I. does not try to exploit the game engine nor does the A.I. forgo its missions simply because it does not want to be the first to die.
        For me it is the other way around, since I have to be so much on my toes in TvT, I have to concentrate and think much harder, thus for me it's much more immersive. Further more it feels much more rewarding to successfully use teamwork against a competent human opponent.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        In my experience, even the most well planned TvT will turn into a snipe fest given the opportunity with equipment.
        Those are two key words there: opportunity and equipment.

        -Opportunity: People have the opportunity to let it turn in a snipe fest if no orders are given or not following orders has no serious consequences. That's what I think is lacking so much in ArmA, the ability for FTLs, SLs and PLs to deal with people that are not following orders or just generally screwing around. IRL you work as a team, if you do not you will face consequences, in ArmA this sense and implementation of hierarchy is underdeveloped.

        - Equipment, limit equipment to that appropriate for the role, not sniper glass for everyone.

        Further more mission design plays a role. If you just put two sides in a desert and everyone knows where the enemy is well sure you just could've called the mission snipe fest right away. However if you allow sides to choose their approach and terrain just simple sniping becomes a lot less effective.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        If the equipment is not the there, you still cannot perform many of the standard military maneuvers that you could against A.I. because TvT become guerrilla warfare.
        Again that depends on leadership and people following orders and again the fact ArmA's underdeveloped organizational functionality makes it even more demanding on the quality of the leaders and the players group.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        Yes the opponents think more critically, but without a strict scenario TvT will always degrade into either who gets to uber snipe point first or lone guerrilla tactics
        Well, try to identify these points and control them or choose a route and/or tactics that makes you less vulnerable to sniper fire.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        as you see players begin to value their lives more than the objective. I'm not suggesting a lemming rush to to impending doom, but in every TvT(I'm guilty too) players sometimes hold back or don't committ fully to a tough attack as they rather be the last one alive and slink into a more guerrilla style conflict for personal enjoyment. I understand it is game and personal enjoyment should be #1 priority, but I think the game is so close to a sim personal sacrifice should be a bigger part of the TvT experience and I don't think it is.
        In a sim I want people to value their lives, people IRL do to. If a fireteam leader sees a squad member not doing his task properly, deal with it. If ArmA would allow predefined squads, people would play more regularly together in a squad. If you have squad mates with which you almost always play in a squad, you not just gonna let them down.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        The scoreboard always seems to play a big role. I feel in COOP people accept their fate better and are more willing to perform dangerous roles with the mission success as their primary focus, while the desire to best your fellow man gets in the way in TvT.
        Yes, the scoreboard (at least in it's current implementation) does not help. I would prefer a different point system or not even a scoreboard at all.

        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
        I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or debate which is better, I'm just curious as to why people like one game play type over the other. Every other thread on these topics has been a debate, so I thought we could actually start a thread that would be constructive with further mission/scenario selection by focusing on what people are looking for in the different gameplay types.
        To summarize, in my view TvT is much more demanding on many aspects, like game interface, comms, leadership, player attitude, mission design etc. When you see TvT go wrong IMO it's not because it can't be played right, but because ArmA is not designed around TvT and thus lacks tools to easily facilitate organized TvT.

        I'm quite interested to hearing what Dslyecxi or other ShackTac members think, since they play large scale TvT more I think.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

          Originally posted by Taxi View Post

          To summarize, in my view TvT is much more demanding on many aspects, like game interface, comms, leadership, player attitude, mission design etc. When you see TvT go wrong IMO it's not because it can't be played right, but because ArmA is not designed around TvT and thus lacks tools to easily facilitate organized TvT.
          I think this summarizes my point as well. I enjoy COOP's more because of the control that you get. TvT, at least from my point of view, requires a greater effort to achieve the types of control and restraints needed to reach the high level of immersion game play. On the other hand, less effort is needed if your peers are more like minded.
          |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

          XBL GT: Khan58

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

            Everything I do is about Domination right?... (sorry guys).

            I love this thread. I have spent ALOT of hours just sitting and thinking about the key points raised here. My greatest fear and hopefully feat in implementing a TvT in ArmA is maintaining the "coop" immersion in a TvT environment.

            An example of this is that you will find that while many TvT CTI style missions reward play with "points" or "funds", this is not the case in Domination. "Requisition Points" are distributed to be used during a battle (one zone.mission.challenge.objective), but do not carry over and teams are not rewarded with more points for victory. Victory through objectives is the only goal and the reward is control of that zone.

            On the issue of camping or "self-sacrifice". This will largely be driven by the need to squad up and stay in a cohesive unit to achieve victory. Similarly, there will be no-respawns implemented in some of the zones.missions. What makes these different and perhaps some of the self-sacrifice you are describing is that known quantity of time elapsed. Each battle lasts a maximum of 60 minutes (currently). While I will certainly be more cautious than normal in any no-respawn environment, I'm not induced to camp an area just to protect my life. Ultimately, my team and I only have a set amount of time to accomplish the objectives. Being alive at the end of a defeat isn't a great feeling.

            Sniper fests.. this is a HUGE concern of mine. I have implemented 2 systems that I hope will allow me to control for this. 1. Complete control of weapons available via crates and on the soldiers. 2. Complete control of the weather and time conditions. For example, I use these two systems together on Zone1 to create a dark & foggy night (preventing viewdistances that would allow sniping between the islands & prevent an amphibious approach) and only allow unscoped weapons for each team.

            I always disliked the "first to the flag wins". What I have implemented since the last beta is a "prep phase". For the first 5 minutes after a zone starts, each side is restricted to their main base. This will allow both teams an orderly period to join squads, kit out and requisition vehicles (perhaps building convoys or jet formations). Yes after the timer expires you have a rush, but it should be a far more organized affair then any other game and more similar to most coop play.

            I'm very interested to other's feedback here as it always helps my development efforts to be better informed about how TG thinks.


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

              this sounds awesome
              cant wait to try it shiner :)
              Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                I like TVT because sniping AI out in the open isnt much fun.. Nor is getting shot from 200m away by an AI thats entirely conceiled but can still somehow perfectly place that 5.45x39 in your brain basket with ease.

                Now I agree with Khans points about how people can also ruin it.. Its a fine line between the two (coop and TvT) that I really enjoy. And its hard to get, but its by far the most enjoyable when it happens.

                I'm really hoping Shiner's Domination delivers on that. It looks extremely promising.
                TG Regular
                TGU Staff
                ShackTac FNG





                TGU Rotary Wing Instructors
                Evil Koala
                LeftSkidLow

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                • #9
                  Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                  For me coop is about playing out a mission where the enemy don't know you're coming. They're acting as you would expect. You don't get this in TvT as the enemy know you are coming and usually where from. In this respect, TvT is highly unrealistic. What we need are volunteers to populate the server for a month and we'll attack at a random time ;)
                  Jex.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                    Another way to view this thread would be to see how people view Armed Assault as a source of entertainment. Whether people view it as a FPS Game or view it as a Combined Arms Sim. I think that is where views get crossed and one group lessens the enjoyment of another group.

                    My quick opinion is that those that view Armed Assault as a game, tend to favor TvT and faster paced ops with more powerful weapons. They enjoy the realism because it sets boundaries to test ones skill. However, I would suspect they also view those boundaries as exploitable like other FPS games boundaries.

                    The Sim group I think would tend to favor COOP and slower paced ops. Goal is immersion over firepower and effects. They enjoy the boundaries of ArmA's realism because it creates an easily identifiable world in which immersion is possible. Some role playing is key to the Sim aspect.

                    Based on these responses, I think level of immersion is the difference in preference between the game play. I think everyone would agree that TvT COULD be the greatest way to enjoy the game. However, because of the logistics involved in getting the same kind of immersion out of your average TvT, many choose to play COOP.

                    Shiner's Domination goes a long way towards creating a structured TvT environment. I think early on this mission will capture the hearts of everyone. I also feel that as time goes by and people grow accustomed to the system the Scoreboard and self satisfaction will encourage exploitation of the missions mechanics, thus brining us back to square one.
                    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                    XBL GT: Khan58

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                      Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
                      Another way to view this thread would be to see how people view Armed Assault as a source of entertainment. Whether people view it as a FPS Game or view it as a Combined Arms Sim. I think that is where views get crossed and one group lessens the enjoyment of another group.

                      My quick opinion is that those that view Armed Assault as a game, tend to favor TvT and faster paced ops with more powerful weapons. They enjoy the realism because it sets boundaries to test ones skill. However, I would suspect they also view those boundaries as exploitable like other FPS games boundaries.

                      The Sim group I think would tend to favor COOP and slower paced ops. Goal is immersion over firepower and effects. They enjoy the boundaries of ArmA's realism because it creates an easily identifiable world in which immersion is possible. Some role playing is key to the Sim aspect.

                      Based on these responses, I think level of immersion is the difference in preference between the game play. I think everyone would agree that TvT COULD be the greatest way to enjoy the game. However, because of the logistics involved in getting the same kind of immersion out of your average TvT, many choose to play COOP.

                      Shiner's Domination goes a long way towards creating a structured TvT environment. I think early on this mission will capture the hearts of everyone. I also feel that as time goes by and people grow accustomed to the system the Scoreboard and self satisfaction will encourage exploitation of the missions mechanics, thus brining us back to square one.
                      I see it as a combined arms sim.. But then, I'm the type that flies BARCAP missions in Falcon 4.0:AF online, staying on station for 30 minutes or more and often not firing a shot. I dont have a problem with performing a mission and seeing no action. I find enjoyment in simply accomplishing the mission, all while playing as part of a team with a goal bigger than myself.

                      I prefer TvT simply because I find the AI to be insufficient. But at the same time, finding the right mix of people for the types of missions I enjoy is difficult as well. ShackTac is the closest I've found, though they concentrate more on ArmA being an infantry sim and less on the combined arms.
                      TG Regular
                      TGU Staff
                      ShackTac FNG





                      TGU Rotary Wing Instructors
                      Evil Koala
                      LeftSkidLow

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                      • #12
                        Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                        The reason I feel it is easier to get immersed, is that the A.I. does not try to exploit the game engine nor does the A.I. forgo its missions simply because it does not want to be the first to die.
                        It's all about who you play with. If you play with people who are going to try to exploit the game or run away and hide because they don't want to die in-game, you're playing with a bad crowd and they'll make any kind of gameplay less-than-ideal, coop being no exception.

                        In my experience, even the most well planned TvT will turn into a snipe fest given the opportunity with equipment.
                        Scenario design + who you play with.

                        If the equipment is not the there, you still cannot perform many of the standard military maneuvers that you could against A.I. because TvT become guerrilla warfare.
                        Haha. You can perform the most elaborately silly tactics against the AI because they don't do anything to stop you, and they fight strictly at the squad level (and poorly, at that). Players, on the other hand, can perform things like spoiling attacks, feints, ambushes, fighting withdrawals, coordinated multi-squad attacks, elaborate and intelligent defenses, and any number of other tactics.

                        Here's a short clip from a TvT ShackTac did on Saturday where I was commanding Blufor. We had to take three enemy hill positions, and had the benefit of scripted on-call Harrier CAS support. They had the ability to call mortar strikes, on the other hand. This particular clip takes place right as we begin a surprise assault on the enemy from an unexpected direction. A Harrier is coming in to bomb their tallest defensive position, and as the enemy scatters from it to avoid the bombs, two fireteams of Bravo squad begin pouring fire on them from a base-of-fire position. Meanwhile, Alpha squad begins to assault towards this hill objective. It was a very successful assault, btw.

                        Now, ask yourself this. Have you ever had to worry about the AI intentionally and deliberately flushing you out with bombs, so that you're exposed to the fire from an as-yet-unseen support element that is covering another element that is moving up to assault you? No? Of course you haven't - that's beyond the AI's ability. Hence, TvT gives you a richness of tactical possibility that coop cannot replicate. This is before we even get into missions like Dark Business, Escape from the Nemeton, or other ones that rely on rich verbal human interaction that would never be possible with AI.

                        Yes the opponents think more critically, but without a strict scenario TvT will always degrade into either who gets to uber snipe point first or lone guerrilla tactics as you see players begin to value their lives more than the objective.
                        The scenario design doesn't have to be "strict" or restrictive, is just has to be moderately good. As to it "degrading" into what you cited - again, this is who you play with. If you choose to play with people who put their own virtual lives above the collective goals of the team, you're going to suffer from poor gameplay.

                        I'm not suggesting a lemming rush to to impending doom, but in every TvT(I'm guilty too) players sometimes hold back or don't committ fully to a tough attack as they rather be the last one alive and slink into a more guerrilla style conflict for personal enjoyment. I understand it is game and personal enjoyment should be #1 priority, but I think the game is so close to a sim personal sacrifice should be a bigger part of the TvT experience and I don't think it is.
                        Again, this is who you play with. I don't have issues with this. I've seen plenty of ShackTac guys in TvT go in and take a bullet for their team even though they didn't necessarily think they would survive, because they trusted their leadership and knew that they were part of a larger effort where the preservation of their virtual life was not the highest priority. As they say in the Corps, first comes mission accomplishment, then troop welfare.

                        The scoreboard always seems to play a big role.
                        You know how we deal with this? We don't have a scoreboard in-mission. We also do not show kills in-mission (no death messages at all). Problem solved!

                        I feel in COOP people accept their fate better and are more willing to perform dangerous roles with the mission success as their primary focus, while the desire to best your fellow man gets in the way in TvT.
                        I really have not observed this to be the case.

                        I prefer to all play on the same team...it's here where we see some great teamwork, strategy, and fun come to fruition.
                        Great teamwork, strategy, and fun develops just as easily and sometimes more easily in TvT. Coop does not have a stranglehold on those concepts.

                        The things that I hate about TvT such as playability during low server populations,
                        Issue of scenario design. TvT, like coop, can be designed with any playercount.

                        the "twitch" factor, etc. are mostly eliminated in ArmA coop.
                        I have not seen the "twitch" factor play much of a part of ArmA TvT. In CQB, yes, it can matter some, but the bulk of the emphasis is on teamwork and coordination. Look at the video I posted above - what did twitch have to do with that? Nothing at all. In fact, during that entire mission, I can think of no point where twitch mattered at all. All of the killing was done via massed or precision fires from range (or bombs), aside from one encounter that I can think of where the sole surviving enemy on Hill 3 was killed in close combat.

                        (30-somethings like me can still be effective).
                        We have plenty of older players, and I've not heard any complaints about "twitch" gameplay so far.

                        I guess one of the other reasons for prefering coop, although kinda silly, is that I don't like to play opfor (in any game). I like playing as U.S. or U.K or other "allied" nation...it makes it easier for me to immerse/identify with my role.
                        Well, you could always just pick the US or Ind side. TvT requires 2 teams and one of them will (usually) be BLU/IND.

                        -Opportunity: People have the opportunity to let it turn in a snipe fest if no orders are given or not following orders has no serious consequences. That's what I think is lacking so much in ArmA, the ability for FTLs, SLs and PLs to deal with people that are not following orders or just generally screwing around. IRL you work as a team, if you do not you will face consequences, in ArmA this sense and implementation of hierarchy is underdeveloped.
                        Strong leadership and good camaraderie comes into play here. In ShackTac's favor, all of our members are invited into the group - nobody simply says "I'm going to play with ShackTac today!", they have to go through a process in which the rules and expectations are very clearly laid out, and they understand that playing with the group is a right that can be revoked due to exceptionally poor behavior or the inability to be a team player. So, in short, this is a community aspect.

                        - Equipment, limit equipment to that appropriate for the role, not sniper glass for everyone.
                        Optics in ArmA by default are what we scientifically call "easy mode". Ditch the glass and you'll get much better gameplay. The default ShackTac platoon (as seen in BASf) has zero repeat zero magnified glass. We use that in TvT and coop and it works brilliantly.

                        I enjoy COOP's more because of the control that you get. TvT, at least from my point of view, requires a greater effort to achieve the types of control and restraints needed to reach the high level of immersion game play. On the other hand, less effort is needed if your peers are more like minded.
                        Really, with our platoon organization, TvT and coop control identically. There's a reason we have our org set the way it is, it's something we've learned from a hell of a lot of trial-and-error and going to the platoon org system has really helped to make it easier to adapt to different missions without having to re-learn everything on a per-mission basis.

                        \For me coop is about playing out a mission where the enemy don't know you're coming. They're acting as you would expect. You don't get this in TvT as the enemy know you are coming and usually where from. In this respect, TvT is highly unrealistic.
                        Let's not throw the "highly unrealistic" phrase around so haphazardly. I can be utterly scathing about coop's "high unrealism", but what's the point? ArmA AI is surprised every time you fire at them, and every time you attack. They never see it coming. Humans, on the other hand, can hear you land a helo nearby and know that an attack is imminent, and they will prepare for it. Humans can also be legitimately surprised, and hearing the surprise in a human's voice in an after-action video from the enemy's perspective is infinitely more satisfying than "Surprising" some AI that are pushovers. Coop has a place, no doubt, and I enjoy a good coop quite a bit. However, I don't feel the need to slam either coop or TvT to justify one or the other.

                        The Sim group I think would tend to favor COOP and slower paced ops. Goal is immersion over firepower and effects. They enjoy the boundaries of ArmA's realism because it creates an easily identifiable world in which immersion is possible.
                        I don't know what you would consider ShackTac to be, but we enjoy TvT and coop equally. There is no dominating preference for one or the other. Both offer great gameplay.

                        Some role playing is key to the Sim aspect.
                        "Roleplaying" makes me twitch. I won't assume I know what you're talking about, so if you want to clarify what exactly you're talking about, that'd be appreciated. I'll reply to that, but I don't want to jump all over "roleplaying" if you mean something different than I think.

                        I prefer TvT simply because I find the AI to be insufficient.
                        ShackTac is about to start using CoC's CEX in coop, with one (or several) humans controlling entire opfor forces. We expect this to really change the challenge level of the AI in coop.

                        But at the same time, finding the right mix of people for the types of missions I enjoy is difficult as well. ShackTac is the closest I've found, though they concentrate more on ArmA being an infantry sim and less on the combined arms.
                        So many servers and missions go balls-out with the "combined arms" concept to the point that it is no longer challenging. Personally, I am much more interested in the robust infantry combat compared to the less-than-robust armor and air modeling.

                        So, to close... TvT and coop can both be extremely compelling forms of gameplay and neither one is inherently "better" than the other. If you heavily dislike either form of play, it's probably because you haven't seen the best that that form of play can offer.

                        You will note that throughout this post I have not touched on respawn-based TvT at all. This is not something that ShackTac does, and my opinion on it is irrelevant here. You guys have a completely different community in that regard.

                        If anyone is interested (it seems appropriate here), you might want to check out this interview I did a few days ago with ArmedAssault.fr. It covers several of the topics brought up here re: MP in Arma.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                          Well someone has to follow that mega brain bulge of a post by Dslyecxi. Great post by the way.

                          Evil said
                          I prefer TvT simply because I find the AI to be insufficient. But at the same time, finding the right mix of people for the types of missions I enjoy is difficult as well. ShackTac is the closest I've found, though they concentrate more on ArmA being an infantry sim and less on the combined arms.

                          Yep that sums up my feeling ref AI's and is why I like to go versus a human enemy.

                          Dslyecxi expands this point in his post above.

                          I think I'll have to have a go down on the Shack server if it has a public side.
                          I'll do some investigation later this evening.
                          "I like a man who grins when he fights"
                          Sir Winston Churchill


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                          • #14
                            Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                            Dslyecxi,

                            Thanks for your input, but I think you missed my aim. I mentioned a couple of time, that TvT is the ideal experience, however it requires more in the way of mission setup and more in the way of selective peers. In a nutshell that is what you said as well. However, the problem with an open community is just that, it's open to all types. Which creates an interesting problem requiring more effort into mission setup to discourage unwanted types of play, especially in the absence of administration.

                            As for roleplaying, I mean willing to take on your role within your platoon/squad/fireteam. To avoid(especially in COOP) using prior knowledge, to gain advantage. Those kinds of things. Again it goes without mention if you play with the ideal set of players there is no need to point this out.
                            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                            XBL GT: Khan58

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                            • #15
                              Re: TvT and COOP....a discussion

                              It sounds like ShackTac has TvT set up the way I expect TvT to be set up. A lot of TvT games don't place players into well defined roles with clear objectives. Games like Battlefield give a general objective and it's exciting because you don't know which objective will be attacked first. Partly, that's a good thing. The bad thing is the goal is to hold the most objectives. The roles switch frequently during a match. It causes a lot of reorganizing on the fly and camping tactics.

                              Ghost Recon's Domination mode had a lot of cat and mouse tactics. Since you could win by points, a team could reach a point in the match where it was impossible to lose by points and hiding was the best strategy available. All you had to do was wait and win. Boring.

                              One thing I hate about TvT is when a game type has no respawns, it can lead to a change in objective. Instead of protecting an objective, it becomes kill the other team. Any game type that can create a kill the other team objective, I tend to dislike. GR Domination is like that because sometimes it's the absolute way of winning. Battlefield Conquest is very much like that. There are plenty of games that are decided by whether players live or die near the end of the match. Players end up hiding.

                              Game types that I do like are Battlefield 2142's Titan mode and GR's Siege mode. You can kill all you want but it gets you nowhere closer to winning unless those kills meant something. Tagging an enemy about to blow up a control panel was worth way more than randomly seeking out lone targets on the battlefield. GR Siege had a bit more emphasis on kills since there weren't any respawns but at least teams had defined roles, either attack or defend. The attacking team can pick an assault route and the defending team could protect the objective any way desired.

                              I hear GRAW2 has a great new game type. It's basically an attack/defend scenario. The attacking team must destroy a few AA tanks. It's pretty simple and gives clear roles for the teams. Kills matter but the attacking team only gets respawns after destroying an objective.

                              - It's who you game with.

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