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  • Using enemy vehicles...

    The other night we had a fairly large group on the server and we're actually playing another coop mission other than Domination ;)

    The mission was attacking Corozal where we had to take sectors (SimHQ Mout). At the start of the mission I was rather surprised when I heard players talking about going to grab the Hokum from the enemy airbase and then proceeded to take a chopper to fly off and grab it (it must have been a tough assignment with those 2 pilots protecting it).

    I made mention that playing playing the mission around prior knowledge shouldn't really be how we play the mission and was ignored. The SOP's used to state that was not how missions were played here but they no longer seem to be even posted as a sticky.

    If you want to stifle the AI with prior knowledge of a mission then you're playing the mechanics of the mission and not playing the mission out as it was intended. There are also other people who may not have played the mission and might not be expecting an enemy chopper to turn up. It's not like another gunship was needed seeing as we already had the cobra and imo, the whole action stank.

    Taking enemy vehicles seems to be the norm around here these days. They give you an unfair advantage and a nice freedom from fire for a while as the enemy AI treat you like one of their own. Again this goes back to shooting fish in a barrel but ask yourself this - why on earth would the people playing as infantry want one guy in a tank or chopper shooting everything for them?
    Last edited by jex; 08-06-2008, 06:45 PM.
    Jex.


  • #2
    Re: Using enemy vehicles...

    I agree. In most other gametypes, I would personally prefer that there be rewards doled out for salvaging/capturing enemy vehicles instead of allowing them to be usable. That way, it's less of a hassle with friendly-crewed enemy vehicles going to and fro...
    Hey guys, this is a public service announcement from NKato. I am Deaf, so when the helo goes down, you're best off typing "AAAAAAAAIIIEEEEE!!!" instead of attempting to scream it. Thanks!

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    • #3
      Re: Using enemy vehicles...

      I think the original SOP's went along the lines of this...

      Every so often, after playing a mission time and time again, it becomes a temptation as a team leader to advise the team as to where tangos may or may not be. For example, you may know that on a particular mission an ambush will soon occur, and thus you advise your team "Charlie, I want you watching delta 11 for the tangos who will be spawning there to ambush us."

      This habit can ruin surprises for anyone new to the mission, and most importantly, takes away from the realistic tactics needed in a true combat situation.

      We ask that team leaders (and players) refrain from this behavior, much like they would for the SOP Dead Men Talking.
      Jex.

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      • #4
        Re: Using enemy vehicles...

        I used to like to jumping into a Kamov and flying air support missions but I soon came to realise that One persn in a Kamov, or a capatured T72 begins to ruin the mission for the majority IMHO, when all the challenging targets are blown away. Some choose to do this more than others (You know who you are). I have now come to appreciate how truly immersing this game can be with just a team of well co-ordinate players against significant opposition.

        Ultimately I believe this is a role for a mission CO to decide. he can set the rules of engagement with regards to air support and enemy vehicles.

        As far as I am concerned this is why we play the game, someone takes lead and everyone follows that lead. It may not always be what everyone wants to do, (just as in real life) but you get on and do it. (no one is forcing you to stay on the server either at this point)

        Again personally, I would have no hesitation in kicking someone off the server if the CO asks me to, if after numerous requests to a player they still refuse to follow lead orders. I am sure all the other admins will agree to do the same.

        By not locking enemy vehicles, A CO still has the option if severely reduced in number to give fire support in a captured enemy vehicle for a specific objective.

        I have started to tire as I am sure a few others have, of helicopters being flown over ground troops whilst they are trying to plan assaults and or an enemy vehicle appearing out thin air on your regroup point, with engines running, only to find someone sitting in it saying "I thought I would go and fix this tank". The appropriate response is "Who gave you orders to do that?".

        I also believe the capture of enemy air vehicles can be useful for the Kamov to fly escort protection to Blackhawks with it's air to air capability. Ideally the Cobra should do this but it is lacking the required AA missiles.

        Another bug bear is enemy rifles - Again taking an enemy weapon for the sake of "I can pick up more ammo easily" is not the TG spirit. There will be specific missions where the CO again decides that this is perfectly acceptable if they choose not to bring in resupply helo's or are within easy reach of the Insertion helicopter ammo box.

        Ultimately the CO has the right to set the mission how they see fit. Anyone who does not agree with that it is welcome to find another server that will allow you to fly/drive what you want when you want.
        BlackDog1




        "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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        • #5
          Re: Using enemy vehicles...

          Being new to ArmA, I may not have the experience to speak my mind, but I (mostly) agree. As a rookie, friend-or-foe is complicated WITHOUT someone jumping into a T72 while I'm on AT duty, and constantly having to interrupt side comms with "Tank @ Xx00, friendly?" is not only annoying for me but for the rest of the team as well.

          In Project Reality, I've constantly complained that it is impossible to steal the opposing force's vehicles, but it makes perfect sense to avoid maneuvering a vehicle that most teammates will immediately connect with OPFOR, even if for friendly-fire reasons alone.

          Weapons, I think, is a little more complicated. Some missions demand it (like that dawn CIA abduction without NVGs!!), and others it simply isn't an option to bring in additional ammo. Although I agree that it's preferred to roll into a mission or area with enough additional ammunition for unforeseen circumstances, sometimes these situations evolve beyond our control. Several times I've been forced to scrounge an AK and grenades from the corpse of a base defender when a counterattack is announced, and I'm sure most of us have used an RPG-7V to eliminate a surprise armored unit. Although it is pesky, the situations I'd find myself in where I needed to use OPFOR weaponry are far more numerous, in my mind, than the ones where I'd need to use an enemy vehicle.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Using enemy vehicles...

            While there are certain situations where grabbing and using an enemy vehicle for a short period adds to the missions, most cases it causes problems especially with a large group. A small spec op group sure, but a large force no. Sometime lack of AT makes sense to hop into the turret of a T-72 and eliminate the other enemy armor, but taking that T-72 in a mission designed to be played from a small infantry unit is not helping.

            We would hope the type of players that enjoy ArmA are beyond the "Hey guys, I know what the A.I. is going to do......." However, we may need to move to something more concrete if this is becoming more of an issue. I guess for some, the scoreboard is still the only reason they play games.
            |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

            XBL GT: Khan58

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            • #7
              Re: Using enemy vehicles...

              I posted the following in the wrong thread yesterday evening. I guess I was confused. I'm Reposting it here to add to the discussion in this thread.

              Sorry for the confusion.
              _________________________

              I think Jex is referring to the SOP found in this thread

              http://www.tacticalgamer.com/armed-a...on-replay.html

              It did take me quite a few minutes to find this and I knew where to look !....so I can imagine a newer player easily missing it...(even though SOP's are supposed to be required reading).

              I think we are talking about two different things

              1. Giving the mission away by revealing spoilers.

              2. Use of enemy vehicles and assets.

              # 1. I was in command of the mission Jex is referring to and I didn't like the idea of one player sneaking off to the base at paraiso because he had done this mission before and knew he could acquire an enemy ka-50. Unfortunately, as platoon commander I sometimes fall into the trap of trying to make everyone happy all the time and that includes acquiescing to requests that may or may not have merit. In this case I thought we had enough people on the ground I didn't think one less would affect the outcome of the mission so I didn't put my foot down. Perhaps this conversation will spur me to think twice the next time something like this comes up.

              Please read the SOP I linked above...In fact...re read all if you would. It never hurts to do that. I'm going to start enforcing the no spoilers rule and I'll also ask my fellow admins to be equally stringent as well.

              As for # 2. It's not as cut and dried as #1. Give the admin team some time to discuss and we'll come back with more info. I see your point about overuse of enemy assets but there has to be a measured balance somewhere between the two extremes. If we disallow taking of enemy vehicles you just know this will be violated again and again by either ignorance of or sheer disregard of sop's--an admin nightmare really. Consider it under advisement for now and let me ask a favor of both new comers and regulars--think twice and ask your self if you really need to be in that enemy vehicle--does it enhance gameplay for the server or just for you.

              Thanks
              Last edited by Grunt 70; 08-07-2008, 10:31 AM.
              sigpic
              |TG-1st|Grunt
              ARMA Admin (retired)
              Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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              • #8
                Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                I get "page not found" on that link ??

                Thanks Grunt for being the first to address what I consider to be the most important part of this thread - spoiling mission replay (hence an edit of the OP to highlight that point). I knew you were the CO of that mission but I also heard the lack of approval in your voice even when you said OK to the request. I don't have an issue with that because I appreciate what those of us that step up to lead have to go through and sometimes it's just easier to say "yes" than put up with the hassle.

                I hope that other people here agree that playing a mission based on prior experience of said mission is not how we should be approaching mission here at TG - We had this problem a year back where people who had played a mission before were deliberately guiding the team because of prior knowledge. When it's the first time I play a mission, I don't want to hear people telling me to watch a direction because a truck is going to be coming from that way. This behaviour should not be endorsed here at TG.

                Thanks,
                Jex.

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                • #9
                  Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                  Originally posted by jex View Post
                  I get "page not found" on that link ??


                  Thanks,

                  corrected...try again
                  sigpic
                  |TG-1st|Grunt
                  ARMA Admin (retired)
                  Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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                  • #10
                    Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                    Lone Wolves and un-cooperating people should be dealt with. Its not the purpose of the TG server.

                    As for OPFOR vehicles....if you ask me...there should locked straight away.

                    my 0.02$



                    -- I always wanted TG to be different than anyone else out there. We need to be unique in what we offer and how we play, if not we are simply competing with everyone else. --
                    The BigC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                      Originally posted by Grunt 70 View Post
                      Unfortunately, as platoon commander I sometimes fall into the trap of trying to make everyone happy all the time and that includes acquiescing to requests that may or may not have merit. In this case I thought we had enough people on the ground I didn't think one less would affect the outcome of the mission so I didn't put my foot down. Perhaps this conversation will spur me to think twice the next time something like this comes up.
                      Guys, this is why Grunt is such an asset to TG. Being a leader is one thing, being a good leader is another entirely. Respect him.

                      Originally posted by Grunt 70
                      I see your point about overuse of enemy assets but there has to be a measured balance somewhere between the two extremes. If we disallow taking of enemy vehicles you just know this will be violated again and again by either ignorance of or sheer disregard of sop's--an admin nightmare really. Consider it under advisement for now and let me ask a favor of both new comers and regulars--think twice and ask your self if you really need to be in that enemy vehicle--does it enhance gameplay for the server or just for you.
                      To me it comes down to exactly what Grunt is saying - we shouldn't need cut-and-dry rules regarding the use of ANY vehicles. Just use some common sense and teamwork - don't abuse any vehicles, and weigh the priorities and circumstances of the mission(s) at hand:

                      - Just finished a mission, or need quick transport. Commandeering enemy vehicles for temporary use should be OK here provided the leadership approves.

                      - Half-way though a mission, things not going well, commandeering enemy assets to turn the tide should be OK, again, provided the leadership approves.

                      - Platoon is planning or in the middle of a large-scale infantry attack. Player A decides he wants to go hijack an enemy asset and does so. Not OK under any circumstances.

                      This came up the other night when someone was asking about the use of tanks, and the leadership responded that generally we use infantry only if we have enough players. If troop numbers are low or otherwise overpowered, we may resort to heavier assets such as air and tread. All of these decisions should be up to the leadership.

                      Just common sense, people. Go with the flow, do not lone-wolf or strike out, and always, always run everything by the chain of command!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                        Grunt are these SOP's no longer stickied? Are they now just in amongst all other threads? Thx.
                        Jex.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                          Jex, we are looking at updating them in the admin forum as we speak. :D

                          LINKS

                          * *


                          Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

                          -Carlos A. Urbizo-

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                          • #14
                            Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                            do these new no enemy vehicle rules effect Domination?
                            |TG-73rd|Socomseal
                            |TG-73rd Member| Former TG Irregular ArmA Platoon Leader| Former TG ArmA Admin XO| TG Pathfinder - Spartan 1 |TGU ArmA Instructor |Former TG-18th Member| |Former TG-1st Member|

                            "Its easy to argue about issues from afar. But until you have experienced the issue first hand, you have not seen all the facts."

                            Carver you will be cut off for a long time before reinforcements can reach you "I am the reinforcements the main force is only coming to bring me body bags and to clean up the mess Im about to make" - General Carver

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                            • #15
                              Re: Using enemy vehicles...

                              Originally posted by socomseal93 View Post
                              do these new no enemy vehicle rules effect Domination?
                              Yes I think so.



                              -- I always wanted TG to be different than anyone else out there. We need to be unique in what we offer and how we play, if not we are simply competing with everyone else. --
                              The BigC

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