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  • How about a touch of discipline?

    I haven't played ArmedA online so maybe it's not my position to speak out but I am looking forward to it as a sim later this year when the weather turns and I'm stuck indoors anyway with the hours available to play.

    I have, though, been watching as many videos as I can so I can to get a "feel" for online play (to see how it's done) and the one thing that sticks out the most in the two of three part videos posted in here about a recent TG operation is the constant chatter during the briefing or when orders are being issued. This can make it difficult for some to hear exactly what was said.

    During my tenure, when a senior staff member was talking, there was ABSOLUTE SILENCE. No silly bantering, no shuffling around (we were either seated or in formation "at ease”, not "easy") and when responsibilities had been assigned there was a question period then we were dismissed. This is when you could talk.

    Would it not be feasible for squad leaders to command their charges to line up in formation and stand quietly while they are briefed on the mission then dismissed?

    I always do this with any bots under my command. Line them up, assign them to teams., check the map for objectives , decide how to get there etc. then issue appropriate orders. It also helps to know where all your team is too when the game starts.

    Not only would this add to the realism aspect but it might impart a slight sense of military discipline into some players and enhance their simulated online experience.

    Or maybe that's asking too much as the pub crowd draws from those with many years of military experience to immature youngsters who just want to blow things up.

    Just a couple of pennies worth of ideas.
    [CoFR] BeerHunter

    You shouldn't feel bad because you're not succeeding. It's far better to feel confident that you have the ability to handle failure

  • #2
    Re: How about a touch of discipline?

    Great post hunter.... Its amazing you havent played online yet, and you've got the idea. The comms, pointless banter, stupid markers on the map, can all distract from the commander's time to decide on a plan and issue orders. I for one cant wait to get my cable internet back and get back on the server to help with these issues :D Hopefully you will be online by then as well.. we need more players of your mindset.
    Dizlor


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    • #3
      Re: How about a touch of discipline?

      I have seen the odd time where people lose focus and are not paying attention but for the most part, recently, people listen up and stay quite. I think in the past with the lack of in game channels you got a lot of mixed chatter coming in. Now we use a lot more direct comms so every one has to get in close and stay quiet to hear properly.

      A few weeks back we were doing a mission and we all hudled together under one of the sheds to do our briefing, it was raining of course. Can't afford to get needlesly wet now, can we? :row__593:

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      • #4
        Re: How about a touch of discipline?

        Originally posted by BeerHunter View Post
        Would it not be feasible for squad leaders to command their charges to line up in formation and stand quietly while they are briefed on the mission then dismissed?

        It would absolutely be feasible, and it's been done. It depends on the squad leader/commander, really. If someone steps up and takes charge, everyone usually listens. Those who don't get booted by an admin.

        I find the most issues with radio chatter to be in the field. Things work best when folks observe radio hierarchy - grunts use direct comms, fireteams use group chat, and only SL's and high priority comms use the side or global chat.

        The fact that team comms are fixed in Domination mode will help this out a lot - especially in the field.

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        • #5
          Re: How about a touch of discipline?

          Ive seen it done before in a mission reccently run by beta he gave a long briefing with no one else talking. However, after words he asked if anyone had questions and a few people asked some really stupid questions IE: when do we get to blow stuff up
          |TG-73rd|Socomseal
          |TG-73rd Member| Former TG Irregular ArmA Platoon Leader| Former TG ArmA Admin XO| TG Pathfinder - Spartan 1 |TGU ArmA Instructor |Former TG-18th Member| |Former TG-1st Member|

          "Its easy to argue about issues from afar. But until you have experienced the issue first hand, you have not seen all the facts."

          Carver you will be cut off for a long time before reinforcements can reach you "I am the reinforcements the main force is only coming to bring me body bags and to clean up the mess Im about to make" - General Carver

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          • #6
            Re: How about a touch of discipline?

            I've done this kind of thing before, it can work, but it depends on a few things.

            How many players?
            How long have you been waiting?
            Is the briefing area quiet?


            When having to give briefings for 20+ players, you really start to appreciate the little things that other players can do. Do things quickly, quietly, NOT pointing your weapon in your commander's face (yes, I have been shot in the head during a briefing due to an "accidental" discharge), lowering your weapon, making a line/semi-circle around the leader. All these things should be something you do automatically, I shouldn't need to tell everyone EXACTLY what to do ... simply say everybody on me, we are going over the briefing.

            I know some people don't have much time to play .. but if the team is disorganized on base at a BRIEFING ... good freaking luck once the bullets start flying and you take casualties.

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            • #7
              Re: How about a touch of discipline?

              Originally posted by beita View Post
              When having to give briefings for 20+ players, you really start to appreciate the little things that other players can do. Do things quickly, quietly, NOT pointing your weapon in your commander's face (yes, I have been shot in the head during a briefing due to an "accidental" discharge), lowering your weapon, making a line/semi-circle around the leader. All these things should be something you do automatically, I shouldn't need to tell everyone EXACTLY what to do ... simply say everybody on me, we are going over the briefing.

              I know some people don't have much time to play .. but if the team is disorganized on base at a BRIEFING ... good freaking luck once the bullets start flying and you take casualties.
              No need to give briefings to 20 players. Pick 4 team leaders and brief them over TS, or have the team leaders (+ commander) mute everyone else besides the other team leaders so they can only hear each other. The team leaders can brief their own team over group channel as to their specific objectives.

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              • #8
                Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                Originally posted by JAMerica View Post
                No need to give briefings to 20 players. Pick 4 team leaders and brief them over TS, or have the team leaders (+ commander) mute everyone else besides the other team leaders so they can only hear each other. The team leaders can brief their own team over group channel as to their specific objectives.
                I used to try and do that (still do!), but 9 times out of 10, I get 2/3rds of the players listening to MY briefing anyways ...

                I may have to look further into it, but I can't use TS and ArmA VON at the same time, when I am in TS, my ArmA VON craps out, it becomes really, really, FAST. Have the same problem with BF2.


                If each squad/section designates a 2IC or a few team leaders, this would work a lot better, as I find even the most "disciplined" players on the server seem to wander over to the platoon briefing anyways, simply because no one is "keeping watch" over them and they think they are missing out on something ..

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                • #9
                  Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                  Originally posted by beita View Post
                  I used to try and do that (still do!), but 9 times out of 10, I get 2/3rds of the players listening to MY briefing anyways ....
                  Who cares, if you have them muted no worries.

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                  • #10
                    Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                    For Beerhunter and everyone else, this is a great topic. Let me start by saying I was the one that recorded and made the video, and I am also an admin.
                    Up till now I have never kicked anyone from the server for being stupid, as I just keep trying to encourage them to fall in line, and I know not everyone knows how clean we try to run things here on TG, and I like giving them a chance to learn.

                    That being said, I'm done with that.

                    Understand that I not only made that video, but I also cut a special version to show what stuff was going wrong and we the admins are looking at it to decide how to change things. I will step right up and admit I should have kicked the kid instantly. Think about how I felt in the game trying to listen to black dog while the kid ran off like he had diarrhea of the mouth. But what you don't know from watching the video is how many times I told him on direct comms to stop talking, and it finally got to "shut the hell up or I am kicking you". It is hard to see my little purple comms channel light up, but you will notice that when I finally said the above, near the end of the 2nd video, he does stop for the most part, and is pretty much silent in part 3.

                    Also, you might want to check out what has been said about that actual mission/event over in the PR forum.

                    Starts here and goes for 2 pages:
                    http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ml#post1052601

                    Look at what fuzz says about it on the last page. I am pretty pissed at myself for not having done something about the situation when I should have, and it's partly my fault we now have some bad press in the forum I pull a lot of good new recruits from.

                    So through all the editing and stuff I have watched that video like 30 times, and his voice is now like nails on a chalkboard.

                    Point is, I will not make the mistake again. The level of maturity is going to go up, or people are gone. I know the other admins are on the same thought lines.

                    Don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of fun and joking around to be done. We had a blast last night between missions. Like when we were waiting on an island while grunt ran and got the chopper for evac. We all ran through all our ammo/rockets hitting 2 boats on the opposite shore. :D That was fun :D

                    LINKS

                    * *


                    Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

                    -Carlos A. Urbizo-

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                      When you have players that are here to play a mission, those players will have the patience and willingness to cooperate with the game. To them, the briefing is part of the play and they like to immerse themselves into the game.

                      The other side of that are players who just want to kill stuff. They have no patience, no appreciation of the team leaders and don't really give a crap about the mission. They just want to get lots of kills so they can look good on the scoreboard (btw - isn't about time that was removed?).

                      On persistent games with respawns, the respawn timer should be greatly extended (2 minutes plus). On actual missions, respawns should be off (and no mission made should ever require them to be on).

                      The servers are only a good place to play because of the players. If we allow smacktards in, then that only takes the server in one direction. That direction is opposite of the way we want to play so it really is in our interest to make sure we keep them idiot free.
                      Jex.

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                      • #12
                        Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                        Originally posted by jex View Post
                        ...

                        On persistent games with respawns, the respawn timer should be greatly extended (2 minutes plus). On actual missions, respawns should be off (and no mission made should ever require them to be on).

                        ...
                        I am not sure a 2 minute respawn is necessary.

                        In SOME missions, yes, it might be. Take Urban Engagements as an example. You CAN'T get into the fight within 30 seconds (a la Domination parajump), so you are stuck at base waiting for a pickup. 2 minutes is excessive, why wait 2 minutes to spawn when you might wait up to 10 for a pickup?

                        I do agree that missions should REQUIRE you to respawn, BUT they should put a high-level of expectations on the level of teamwork players should be using.

                        In general, the less organized a team, the more people will die. I don't think punishing the players because Plt HQ had them hold because 2 Section was not paying attention thus getting those players killed by an unexpected enemy attack. What if the mission goes on for another 2 hours? They are supposed to quit? Wait?

                        Respawn missions have their place, as without them, missions are dramatically limited in their scope of enemy forces. It is not realistic to expect a player to wait for 1 hour to play again. They ARE doing this for enjoyment after all, and with even the best spectating system, it will get boring.

                        All I am trying to say is, no respawn is not the only solution. Well thought out mission design can do more to encourage coordination and teamwork than a simple no respawn ever could.

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                        • #13
                          Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                          What about revive missions? if you all die you loose, and you can spend a long time waiting to get healed.
                          |TG-73rd|Socomseal
                          |TG-73rd Member| Former TG Irregular ArmA Platoon Leader| Former TG ArmA Admin XO| TG Pathfinder - Spartan 1 |TGU ArmA Instructor |Former TG-18th Member| |Former TG-1st Member|

                          "Its easy to argue about issues from afar. But until you have experienced the issue first hand, you have not seen all the facts."

                          Carver you will be cut off for a long time before reinforcements can reach you "I am the reinforcements the main force is only coming to bring me body bags and to clean up the mess Im about to make" - General Carver

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                            Originally posted by beita View Post
                            I am not sure a 2 minute respawn is necessary.

                            In SOME missions, yes, it might be. Take Urban Engagements as an example. You CAN'T get into the fight within 30 seconds (a la Domination parajump), so you are stuck at base waiting for a pickup. 2 minutes is excessive, why wait 2 minutes to spawn when you might wait up to 10 for a pickup?
                            I was referring to games like domination. Obviously different games require different settings.

                            I do agree that missions should REQUIRE you to respawn, BUT they should put a high-level of expectations on the level of teamwork players should be using.
                            Did you mean "shouldn't REQUIRE"?

                            In general, the less organized a team, the more people will die. I don't think punishing the players because Plt HQ had them hold because 2 Section was not paying attention thus getting those players killed by an unexpected enemy attack. What if the mission goes on for another 2 hours? They are supposed to quit? Wait?
                            Not for missions that are that long, no. I was aiming that more on missions up to an hour. However, if in your example above, people aren't paying attention, then what are they doing here?
                            Jex.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How about a touch of discipline?

                              OFF TOPIC.......

                              Use another post for discussions about respawns...

                              Going back to the topic.... ;)

                              I agree with much of the above and have had a few instances where, you really have no option but to get slightly firm with people as "goofing around" during briefings is not only stupid and annoying, it can also seriously screw up the mission. If the CO says "we are not going to engage the targets if they do not see us" and then "dopey" lets off rounds at the first target he see's, this can often destroy the entire gameplan which everyone else has agreed.

                              So Bamboo is right, we are going to be clamping down. Reason being is the sheer number of new people we are getting onboard now. We have no desire to be the biggest server for ARMA out there as that attracts the idiots that follow the herd!

                              What we want are servers full of quality players who all respect each other and the same desire to play missions with teamwork.

                              As with making a really good bottle of wine, you only use the best grapes! The rest get sent/sold to "Chateu Plonk"!!

                              So from now on (as it is not just kids who cannot follow orders) I shall be calling candidates for the "Kick/Boot" - "Mouldy Grapes" Likewise if a squad leader of commander tells me he has a "Mouldy Grape" in his squad..... its off to Chateu Plonk for them!!

                              :D
                              BlackDog1




                              "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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