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  • Ripple Fire

    I was wondering if it would be possible to use ripple fire in ArmA or not. I'm reffering to the missiles and bombs fired by helicopters and planes. Are all guided armaments fire-and-forget or are there some that will attempt to alter course if the target is changed midflight? If so then it would be a good skill for those advanced pilots to practice.

    If it is not, however, then i have and idea that will create a similar effect that may be worth putting to the test online sometime.

    There are a few occassions when I have tried to designate targets for helicopters and in particular GBUs where the target is moving. I follow it and still the shot hits. So imagine a situation where there are several targets in close proximity (armoured counterattack). The jet flies slowly overhead (flaps down, just above stall speed) and the man on the ground calls out how many shots he needs.

    The pilot then drops the specified number with...say...3 second intervals (maybe more). The man on the ground waits for the first impact then shifts to the next target, the shot will alter course to hit it.

    Do you guys think this may be a techinque worth practicing. I'm sure there are a few TG pilots out there who would love to give it a go.

  • #2
    Re: Ripple Fire

    In my experience, CAS never seems to be available when needed.

    Also, it requires a very large degree of comms between the FAC and pilot to get accurate strikes. You can't just fly "over there" and drop the bombs, you need to get a proper vector, proper altitude, proper speed in order to get effective bomb strikes. And that is for a stationary target.

    If a target is moving, basically, multiply the difficulty factor by 10. Everything has to be done quickly and correctly.

    If the pilot is going too slow, the bombs won't make it in time. If too fast, they will overshoot the lase. If too low, may not get a lock, or the bombs may hit obstructions. If not on the right vector, probably won't get a lock, and the bombs could be off-target.



    Might want to do some searching for some military SOPs on how to call in air support, then trim it down to what is needed in ArmA. I think Dsylexci's guide goes over this topic briefly.

    Without an effective system, it will be unreliable at best. NOT something a commander wants to rely on.

    I would really like to see an effective FAC and CAS element, it just hasn't happened yet.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ripple Fire

      It just takes a good pilot and accurate target information; map markers are visible on the GPS. I've done plenty of successful CAS missions on server 2 - with GBU, rockets and cannon.

      Davies, I'm curious and would like to practice this technique in the name of science.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ripple Fire

        Originally posted by ironpants View Post
        It just takes a good pilot and accurate target information; map markers are visible on the GPS. I've done plenty of successful CAS missions on server 2 - with GBU, rockets and cannon.

        Davies, I'm curious and would like to practice this technique in the name of science.
        Map markers don't work on moving targets ...


        I agree that it takes accurate target information. That is the sticking point for most CAS.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ripple Fire

          Originally posted by beita View Post
          Might want to do some searching for some military SOPs on how to call in air support, then trim it down to what is needed in ArmA. I think Dsylexci's guide goes over this topic briefly.
          http://dslyecxi.com/armattp4.html#closeairsupport

          "Briefly"? What more do you want?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ripple Fire

            Originally posted by Dslyecxi View Post
            http://dslyecxi.com/armattp4.html#closeairsupport

            "Briefly"? What more do you want?
            Heh. Just looked over it again, pretty thorough. Couldn't really remember how detailed it got, was probably me just skimming through it though ;)


            Either way, I still think that you need to have SOME sort of system for CAS (mainly in the form of GBUs) to be effective.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ripple Fire

              You might want to get in touch with Mando. I do believe he just released a whole new set of tools for running CAS and several other sorts of death from above scenario, and he seems to be the modder par excellance for this sort of thing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ripple Fire

                Originally posted by beita View Post
                In my experience, CAS never seems to be available when needed.

                Also, it requires a very large degree of comms between the FAC and pilot to get accurate strikes. You can't just fly "over there" and drop the bombs, you need to get a proper vector, proper altitude, proper speed in order to get effective bomb strikes. And that is for a stationary target.

                If a target is moving, basically, multiply the difficulty factor by 10. Everything has to be done quickly and correctly.

                If the pilot is going too slow, the bombs won't make it in time. If too fast, they will overshoot the lase. If too low, may not get a lock, or the bombs may hit obstructions. If not on the right vector, probably won't get a lock, and the bombs could be off-target.
                Oh gosh yes, comms would be essential in this technique, as would proper vectors and a competent pilot. That's why i suggest it's something that would need practicing and for that reason will only occasionally be of much use in the more spontainious games such as those on Domination. It would depend on who was online.

                What makes me think of this was a week or so ago when we were on Domination and a seriously tough mission presented itself to us. The Side Mission and Main Mission both ended up being in the area of Pita. It wasn't the most organized attack ever. When we started there was just a small number of us so we stuck to one squad. But then very quickly the server started filling up.

                There may not have been some precise squad organization but we did at least work together. The counterattack that then came really messed things up. People were scattered all over the place, unable to move from the sheer number of tanks. I was killed but fortunately, sensing the struggle before us, we airlifted a mobile respawn into the area at the start. At this time we heard that a Randy was inbound with a harrier for CAS. I grabbed a Laser Designator and returned to the front line.

                From there i was able to really turn the table back in our favour and our guys went on the offensive again. there were so many targets that Randy had used all his bombs and had to resort to strafing to get the remainder of my targets. A lot of which were moving and i was able to follow with the LD, still gaining successful hits. We even managed to salvage a few tanks.

                In this instance the ripple fire technique would have come in useful, as all our forces were pinned down and had been for sometime. it would have helped get the offensive restarted even sooner.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ripple Fire

                  You can drop all 5 GBU's with a x second gap and walk the LD over targets I think. Getting the gap right will need testing though.
                  Jex.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ripple Fire

                    Originally posted by jex View Post
                    You can drop all 5 GBU's with a x second gap and walk the LD over targets I think. Getting the gap right will need testing though.
                    Yeah that's it. That's the kind of thing I was thinking off. But your right, the timing is the thing that really needs practicing, I was thinking 3 seconds but it may have to be more than that to give the ordinance time to alter course.

                    It may also depend on the situation on the ground; a spread out series of targets or a closely packed convoy, so the timing as well as the vectors may be something that the designator needs totake responsibility for.

                    As for the flying itself, well that would be a job for TGs top pilots, they would have to be highly adept at multi tasking and have a good understanding of their aircrafts capability. Missiles fired from helicopter is a much simpler situation however. That said, choppers aren't as reliant on LDs.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ripple Fire

                      Originally posted by Davies View Post
                      Yeah that's it. That's the kind of thing I was thinking off. But your right, the timing is the thing that really needs practicing, I was thinking 3 seconds but it may have to be more than that to give the ordinance time to alter course.

                      It may also depend on the situation on the ground; a spread out series of targets or a closely packed convoy, so the timing as well as the vectors may be something that the designator needs totake responsibility for.

                      As for the flying itself, well that would be a job for TGs top pilots, they would have to be highly adept at multi tasking and have a good understanding of their aircrafts capability. Missiles fired from helicopter is a much simpler situation however. That said, choppers aren't as reliant on LDs.
                      Actually the targetting is the same for LGB's - you just select the LD and drop the bombs. 3x5 = 15 seconds. That may be too long. I'm not sure how the ordinance is modelled - you may find that they just follow the LD and don't have much of a flight model. A simple mission can be made to test it though. 5 tanks spread apart, 1 harrier and 1 to LD.
                      Jex.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ripple Fire

                        Originally posted by jex View Post
                        Actually the targetting is the same for LGB's - you just select the LD and drop the bombs. 3x5 = 15 seconds. That may be too long. I'm not sure how the ordinance is modelled - you may find that they just follow the LD and don't have much of a flight model. A simple mission can be made to test it though. 5 tanks spread apart, 1 harrier and 1 to LD.
                        Yes the pilot whould have to understand aircraft systems fully to ensure all bombs could hit their targets. This would mean high altitude, level flight and speeds close to stall speed and requiring the use of the aricrafts flaps. If these three variables were taken into account then the aircraft may have enough time on station to carry out the full ordinance delivery.

                        Does the aircraft have to be facing the target when releasing its LGBs or can it be circling? If the aircraft was circling would the LGBs be able to arc sideways onto the target?

                        Also, I was wondering, do terms like: "Fire for Effect" and "Fire mission" apply only to artillery missions or can they be used in coordinating CAS missions too?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ripple Fire

                          Both can be used to coordinate CAS (as far as I know), but the applications are a lot fewer since air ordinance is F&F, and there's less (or no) need to walk-in air support to target.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ripple Fire

                            Originally posted by Davies View Post
                            Yes the pilot whould have to understand aircraft systems fully to ensure all bombs could hit their targets. This would mean high altitude, level flight and speeds close to stall speed and requiring the use of the aricrafts flaps. If these three variables were taken into account then the aircraft may have enough time on station to carry out the full ordinance delivery.

                            Does the aircraft have to be facing the target when releasing its LGBs or can it be circling? If the aircraft was circling would the LGBs be able to arc sideways onto the target?

                            Also, I was wondering, do terms like: "Fire for Effect" and "Fire mission" apply only to artillery missions or can they be used in coordinating CAS missions too?
                            Now your entering the area known as exploiting the game engine. No aircraft today would fly as slow as they could over a target or circle it dropping bombs. Concievably you could use the auto hover of the harrier to do it but it just wouldn't happen in reality and can only happen in a game due to the limitations of the engine.

                            As for facing I would have thought it needs to be towards the target but I don't know how the physics are modelled.
                            Jex.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Ripple Fire

                              Originally posted by jex View Post
                              Now your entering the area known as exploiting the game engine. No aircraft today would fly as slow as they could over a target or circle it dropping bombs. Concievably you could use the auto hover of the harrier to do it but it just wouldn't happen in reality and can only happen in a game due to the limitations of the engine.

                              As for facing I would have thought it needs to be towards the target but I don't know how the physics are modelled.
                              Hmm, fair point. I suppose it wouldn't be an entirly realistic situation. However, there could still be a case for 'rippling' 2 or 3 bombs for someone with a LD to walk on to targets.

                              Comment

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