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Why So Little TvT?

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  • Why So Little TvT?

    After being away from ArmA since the days when it was more or less Evolution or nothing at all, it is easy to see that ArmA has made great strides forward, and so has the TG ArmA community. I have had the opportunity to play just one TvT game on the ArmA server, and of course was struck by the difference between AI and real intelligence.

    I am curious as to why so little TvT games happen on regular nights. Clearly, the ArmA scrims are very popular (perhaps the most popular form of ArmA). I think I overheard someone saying that TvT tends to degrade into snipe fests. If so, surely this could be managed by disallowing certain weapons.

    I ask because I am hoping to see ArmA move into more 'live' intelligence action, such that only TvT offers. I can see that TvT may give too great an advantage to those with better CPU power and visual rendering, those with more experience in the game, or other factors -- but again, the ArmA scrims suggest that in the end, TvT is the most popular form, but the least played. Is this due to more policing, stricter rules, more "admin" attention or otherwise?

    Obviously, I do not expect the community to change to fit my desires, but I am curious -- if ArmA has the capability of providing us with real 'mano a mano' action, why have we not pursued it more (and I speak as one who is altogether terrible in CQBs...)?

    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Why So Little TvT?

    emale you get it rounded up and im sure they will come. I for one would try hard to join up. Ive had the game for 4 weeks but havent yet played it.
    that sounds like a good idea trooper.
    -Vulcan

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    • #3
      Re: Why So Little TvT?

      If I had to give one reason, it would be the lack of willing leaders.


      I remember we used to play TvT and it was pretty boring because the mission was a no respawn AND there was no leadership. It degenerated into watching 5 people camping in their own little bushes/buildings.

      I think a lot of people still have the idea that TvT = no respawn = boring.


      No respawn TvTs can be great as long as there is a clear goal and some leadership on each side. But, for larger groups (30+), no respawn isn't as popular, because many times people are dead or joined in progress and have to wait for up to 30 minutes before playing.


      Respawn TvTs typically involve the aforementioned "snipe fest". Typical example is the Bezerk series of maps, spawn at many points in the middle of the fighting, pick whatever weapons you want (read: Sniper rifle, rocket launcher), and have at it.


      Not ALL respawn TvTs fall into this category, just a great many of them.



      In my opinion, the reason why more TvT isn't played is that the level of coordination is still not high enough to make for an enjoyable game. But, in order to get the required level of coordination, more TvT needs to be played. The AI simply can't compete against a human player, and it is showing when we play TvT as the same group that worked flawlessly in a coop gets wiped out without getting within 200m of their objective.

      There is two ways to go about this, in my opinion:

      1. Start taking coop "more seriously". Yeah, I KNOW that the AI "can't see us from that far away", but what if it was players down there? Start treating every mission as if you were fighting against humans, and you will go a long way towards making TvT easier to get a handle on.

      2. Simply play more TvT, even if some people don't want to, take a vote and play if the majority agrees.



      Personally, I am playing a lot less and waaay less serious than normal simply because I know every exploit on how to easily beat the AI. It has become trivial. 3 players can take on 30 AI easily.

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      • #4
        Re: Why So Little TvT?

        Well, im going to be trying some TvT on the Iraq map in server one tonight, best way to test it.....Also, if we put that true ai range mod into CooP missions, it would make it more real?

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        • #5
          Re: Why So Little TvT?

          Believe it or not, one of the major reasons for TvT is simply time. TvT requires a lot more organization and commitment to playing time, especially if you are a leader.

          Another simple reason is also variety, the more we have the more we play. If you look at the popular web download sites, there is not that many out there.
          "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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          • #6
            Re: Why So Little TvT?

            Originally posted by beta
            There is two ways to go about this, in my opinion:

            1. Start taking coop "more seriously". Yeah, I KNOW that the AI "can't see us from that far away", but what if it was players down there? Start treating every mission as if you were fighting against humans, and you will go a long way towards making TvT easier to get a handle on.

            2. Simply play more TvT, even if some people don't want to, take a vote and play if the majority agrees.



            Personally, I am playing a lot less and waaay less serious than normal simply because I know every exploit on how to easily beat the AI. It has become trivial. 3 players can take on 30 AI easily.
            Agreed. Im not too interested in coop, I see coop mainly as "training" rather than real gameplay.

            Originally posted by Jeepo
            put that true ai range mod into CooP missions
            Agreed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Why So Little TvT?

              I have to agree with Beta on this.

              Leadership is key for good TvT and thats not always easy to come by, where as Coop only requires one leader and they don't have to be extreamly organised to succeed.

              I really enjoy some of the respawn TvT we played a few weeks ago. They had the right balance of value for your life but still allowed for JIP and if you died early you learned your lesson and played smarter. There was a pretty hefty penalty if you died as it took a while to get back to the front and weapons and ammo were scarce once you died. More of this TvT could happen regularely?

              I think one area that coop is great is allowing us to all play together in more realistic settings. Last night we played Operation Finger and there is no way it could have been pulled off in a TvT scenario and still had the same feeling to it. Insurgency within a populated area, IED's and VBIED's etc. It's hard to get human players to simply patrol areas or stand guard for an hour at a check point.

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              • #8
                Re: Why So Little TvT?

                With new maps now coming out at an astounding rate,TvT is becoming more popular,for example we look at the Avgani map,such an urban area is great for TvT as Jeepo and Blackdog will testify to.

                Yes indeed TvT does reqire more organisation but in the end it is well worth the effort.

                Yours truely
                Graeme(Grambo)Rice
                WE HAVE YOU COVERED

                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Re: Why So Little TvT?

                  More organization and mission design are the two big needs for TvT. Most TvT maps without strict organization turn into snipe fests because of the no respawn. The ones with respawns, might as well play BF2 with a mod of choice at that point.

                  This all goes back to ArmA is a terrible pub game, it's all about the people you play with and the type of mission agreed upon to play. A TvT in an open pub environment is not going to work out well, especially if it is a no respawn.
                  |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                  XBL GT: Khan58

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                  • #10
                    Re: Why So Little TvT?

                    I feel the solution is more organized events specificly TvTs, this way everyone knows whats going on.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Why So Little TvT?

                      Originally posted by *spacecadett* View Post
                      I feel the solution is more organized events specificly TvTs, this way everyone knows whats going on.
                      Agreed, but the problem there is commitment and feasibility. During the week, the time zones come into play much more dramatically than on the weekend. A 4 player closed TvT does not need as much as a 20 player open TvT. The admins could set aside a day during the week, but you would find a very inconsistent population that would make organizing a decent size TvT impossible.

                      Another issue with TvT, that I think is overlooked is that TvT in ArmA is different than other games. What makes ArmA different from other is that it is a total simulation. Small unit TvT is actually better done in games like America's Army, Rainbow 6, Ghost Recon, imho. ArmA has the potential to be much greater with combined arms, etc, but population dictates smaller unit engagements. It all comes down to whether or not missions are available that provide a framework for small group TvT. ArmA is a sim, but it's not perfect. The same people who cannot overlook the A.I. inabilities and play the mission as if they did not exist, will be the same people who attempt to game the system and take advantage of the limitations of the sim. You couple that with no respawns, you have an environment where TvT does not look to be the greatest.
                      |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                      XBL GT: Khan58

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Why So Little TvT?

                        Originally posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
                        Agreed, but the problem there is commitment and feasibility. During the week, the time zones come into play much more dramatically than on the weekend. A 4 player closed TvT does not need as much as a 20 player open TvT. The admins could set aside a day during the week, but you would find a very inconsistent population that would make organizing a decent size TvT impossible.

                        Another issue with TvT, that I think is overlooked is that TvT in ArmA is different than other games. What makes ArmA different from other is that it is a total simulation. Small unit TvT is actually better done in games like America's Army, Rainbow 6, Ghost Recon, imho. ArmA has the potential to be much greater with combined arms, etc, but population dictates smaller unit engagements. It all comes down to whether or not missions are available that provide a framework for small group TvT. ArmA is a sim, but it's not perfect. The same people who cannot overlook the A.I. inabilities and play the mission as if they did not exist, will be the same people who attempt to game the system and take advantage of the limitations of the sim. You couple that with no respawns, you have an environment where TvT does not look to be the greatest.

                        Not all TvTs are no respawn.

                        Not all respawn TvTs are a frag fest.


                        I agree, TvT is a greater investment of time, but it makes for a more exciting match.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Why So Little TvT?

                          Originally posted by beita View Post
                          Not all TvTs are no respawn.

                          Not all respawn TvTs are a frag fest.
                          As I said in a previous post, it's all about choosing missions that are designed to fit the environment. Many do not fit or provide the framework similar to our COOPS, with the exception that the opfor is human controlled. That being said, my favorite mission is TvT, Warfare, but it has its own issues with organization. It's a decent pub mission because player count isn't as significant and join in progress, but with the wrong kind of players or leaders on both sides you run into a lot of lone wolfing.

                          My point was that in an open, public server having a TvT with or without respawns will be more trouble than it is worth. You would need someone dedicated to assigning team members as they join or disconnect on most of the smaller missions. My other issue was having closed sessions require more organization and commitment to assure even teams. Again, the mission selection can help reduce the investment of both and make the entire session worth while. I think our weekend sessions provide the greatest opportunity for TvT missions as time zones become less of a factor and commitments are easier to get.
                          |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

                          XBL GT: Khan58

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Why So Little TvT?

                            Lets focus the discussion of the possibility of TvT in the regular TG open server (#2) by establishing the following premises:

                            1) there will be no lone wolfers
                            2) there will be strong squad leaders
                            3) there will be respawn with a reasonable penalty for dying
                            4) there will be limited weapon choices
                            5) late joiners and new players will be promptly assigned to a squad.

                            All of these premises are reasonable, I suggest, based on the current climate of play at the TG server #2 on most evenings.

                            The current condition of play on server number two shows that we have very strong squad leaders and, when needed, PLs.

                            Thus the discussion of possible future TvT should proceed by recognizing that we have been managing a very high level of organization and team-work in an open server environment with no tolerance for lonewolves.

                            Time also seems to me to be less of an issue than it may have been in the past, as we have seen many excellent nights of play that involved long periods of organization, briefing, and tactical movement. In other words, we seem to be quite happy and capable of playing one to two hour rounds of highly organized games.

                            This makes me think that many of the objections voiced here to TvT may not represent the current condition of teamwork, organization, and leadership on many nights.

                            Keep in mind that I am not trying to argue that we should be all or mostly TvT -- the games we play are largely the result of in-game group votes and should remain so.

                            I am simply exploring the issues surronding TvT and current conditions within TG Arma.

                            Thank you for the helpful feedback thus far,
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Why So Little TvT?

                              3) there will be respawn with a reasonable penalty for dying
                              I'm not so certain about this, certainly some missions need a respawn system and play much more fluidly with it. At times respawns work as a force multuplier, in other instances they increase the 'fun' factor. While other missions may be better off with no respawns at all. Even with the harshest penalty any respawn simply cheapens the players life, even if only marginally. Knowing you might have to sit out for 10, 30 or even 60 minutes is a pretty big motivator to stick with the group, cover all angles and generally watch out for one another. Of course, even this is a double edged sword because in some cases players become overly cautious and don't do anything. However, if the TvT is truly objective based then the team that does nothing will lose. So I don't think it should be a general rule to play only respawn, it really should be mission dependent.

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