Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

    Tactical Gamer,

    Issue: Discuss adding ACE mortars (60mm and/or 81mm), ammo, and other necessary equipment items to the Domination and Patrol Ops maps. Necessary equipment includes mortars themselves, ammo, range tables, aiming posts, map tools, DAGRs, and VectorIR binoculars/batteries. NOTE: In my original post I requested artillery computer Humvees, but I have done some research and learned formulas to calculate all necessary math by hand. The battery computer is no longer needed for mortars, although still helpful for M119.

    Current state: Currently players can build and use mortars on Domi, they are in boxes at spawn, with ammo. However, there is no way to use them accurately or make corrections to ongoing fire missions. This is because in ACE2, since T-E was removed fairly recently, firing mortars accurately requires aiming posts. Aiming posts are missing from both maps, probably because no one added new equipment since T-E was removed. I have discovered a glitch that automatically sets up mortar aiming posts the first time the mortar is constructed on Domni, but if these posts are lost or misplaced, there are no replacements anywhere. This is a glitch and in my mind should not be relied on; aiming posts need to be in the map elsewhere. DAGRs, Maptools, and Vectors should already be present.

    Patrol Ops does not seem to have any indirect fire equipment; mortars, ammo, or aiming posts. I could be wrong about this, as I have not tried all possible classes on Patrol Ops.

    Why we need aiming posts and other equipment: The aiming posts are used as reference points when setting the deflection on the mortars (much the same as they were on the howitzer until the invent of the collimator). Without them a mortar can only guesstimate their shots by essentially making sure to place the mortar base and top facing EXACTLY the right direction for the target. This method is a crude workaround and limits accuracy. Right now aiming posts are not present in boxes in either Domi or Patrol Ops. They are normally spawned in the "Aiming Posts box" item in the editor, under AE Arty Equipment, but such a box is not placed on either map.

    Why Not Add Them: One argument against adding these missing tools is that artillery would make things too easy. This argument misses the reality of Arma players. Let me be frank and say, very few people in ARMA have taken the time to really learn the artillery system of ACE. It takes time which few want to invest. Even if one person is skilled in mortars, the system is made to require several people (a crew of at least 2, if not 3) to effectively and quickly respond to spotter fire missions. I have never been on a server with such a trained crew of fire support people. In addition, not every situation calls for them. My point is, the odds of this change unbalancing the missions are low.

    Why Add Them: What it will do is provide another tactical alternative if people decide to learn how to use them. Using mortars will require planning, (finding a good spot to set the mortar up with 40 meters of relatively flat ground and sending out a spotter with proper long range radio, sighting equipment, and a DAGR), logistics (moving the mortar, ammunition, aiming posts, a long range radio, and the computer Humvee to the new firebase), and coordination (between spotter and gunner, between spotter and nearby ground forces).

    Summary: In short I am asking you to consider placing mortars, ammo, and other equipment into two of the most common maps played on Bravo Server (Domi and Patrol Ops). The most important currently missing equipment is aiming posts (m1a2 m58, and m1a2 m59 post). These are found in the editor under "Aiming Post Box" within “Empty/AE Arty Equipment."

    Thank you for your time.
    Garthra
    Last edited by Garthra; 08-15-2012, 07:19 PM. Reason: Typo correction and clarification
    The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

  • #2
    Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

    Patrol ops already has mortars included, the engineer class has access to them but it would be up to bl1p if he wanted to add the aiming posts, and as for domi its nothing we can really do unless we decide to make our own version as its a downloaded mission from armaholic.

    The aiming post the mortars deploy first time they are placed can be lifted and moved if required.

    My name: Adept a skilled or proficient person Abyss a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity
    So I'm a very skilled deep hole :D

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

      AdeptAbyss,

      About Patrol Ops, thank you for informing me about the engineer class. I look forward to joyfully firing off indirect fire! I see your point that the first mortar renders additional posts not strictly necessary to use mortars. You are correct that provided you know where the first mortar and posts were placed and so can retrieve them. Alternatively, if no one has taken it from the box yet, you could (using the engineer class) retrieve a mortar and use it. You are 100% right on that.

      However, I do not agree that the current status is fine, which seems to be the implication of your post. (Please correct me if I am mischaracterizing your position.)

      Regarding aiming posts appearing with the mortar, and nowhere else: From my perspective, it seems odd to be unable to replace what are in effect big straight poles (aiming posts) when we can replace, in the ammo box or around the base, all our other equipment including much more complicated ammunitions, weapons, batteries, vehicles, etc. Ideally, I would prefer if the aiming posts always (even the first deployment) started as objects distinct from the mortar, and had to be placed by the crew separately every time, as this would maximize realism and difficulty. But I believe the auto setup on the first placement is based on ACE, and no one here can change it.

      Regarding mortars for the engineer class and no others: engineer class players are often in demand for other tasks, such as repairing ground vehicles, disabling IEDs, or placing explosives. These tasks often require commanders to deploy their (two maximum) engineers with the main ground force. Limiting mortars to these two people places yet another hat on an already in demand class. This discourages use of indirect fire by commanders and limits their flexibility in planning. Why not allow riflemen to draw them from ammo boxes and equip them as well? After all, mortars are part of a rifle platoon, and a subset of infantry. Of course there are counter arguments to this: 1.) Philosophically/generally commanders resources should be limited to encourage thoughtful planning. 2.) Commanders can well deploy one engineer with the ground force and one in artillery a K or two back. Both are good points, just not quite convincing to me.

      Nevertheless, the main argument you raise about minimal necessities is a valid one. If adding aiming posts or changing the class inventory system is a really serious hassle for the mapmaker/editor, then perhaps it is not worth the effort. I am admittedly a novice mapmaker, and so I could be underestimating the effort required to add several objects to the ammo box or change a class inventory setting in Patrol Ops. However, if the effort required is limited, I do not see a downside to changing Patrol Ops.

      About Domi, it seems there is little anyone in Tactical Gamer can do about it. As I am barking up the wrong tree, and will go bark elsewhere.

      Thanks for the reply! :)
      The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Mortars or placing the larger artillery batteries are solely dependant on the ACE system. This is not the issue.
        The issue arises from their updates that are ever changing. Which leaves the mission makers to constantly, update their missions as the updates are pushed/published.

        TGU Instructor TG Pathfinder

        Former TGU Dean Former ARMA Admin Former Irregulars Officer

        "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." - Dag Hammarskjold

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

          Ill see how the mortars work without the posts before I add the posts to the engineer class.
          If the mortars do not work now without posts ill add them.
          The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

            As lowspeed has covered the ACE system changes so much that its not always easy for mission makers to keep everything up to date, until not so long ago the mortars didn't require the aiming posts to be used correctly and so many mission makers had no reason to add the posts into ammo boxes although this may start to change as the ace systems and missions are updated.

            In terms of engineers not always being free to use the mortars it is possible for other classes to use them, it just requires an engineer to retrieve the mortars and ammo for the box, so if required a commander can assign some riflemen to crew the mortar and leave the engineers free for other duties, but this all depends on the commanders play style.

            I think a lot of mission makers and commanders avoid using mortars and larger arty due to the amount of training it can involve, it isn't something that someone can pick up and fire away not without at least some guidance but hopefully maybe a few mission makers will read this thread and start to include both the mortars and the aiming posts as required, I know I have created some missions with arty and plan to create more. As for missions that already include arty but you think require the inclusion of aiming posts try contacting the mission maker and letting him know, just be nice about it, remember it is their free time they spend creating missions for us to enjoy.

            My name: Adept a skilled or proficient person Abyss a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity
            So I'm a very skilled deep hole :D

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

              HighSpeedLowDrag, I was not really taking into account the constant updating required of mapmakers, my mistake on that. I definitely understand mapmaking time is limited, and so as a mapmaker you would not want to go back constantly and update old maps to account for new changes. Your responses, along with those of AdeptAbyss have convinced me that I was underestimating the complexity, time, and work involved the for mapmaker. In making my initial post it was not my intent to impose upon map makers limited time, and so I now think this change may be too much trouble for you guys (the map makers).

              BL1P, thank you for considering a change. As I said earlier, if this is too much trouble no worries.

              AdeptAbyss, as to your point that few maps include artillery because there are few people who know how to use it, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been giving basic artillery training or mortar training to anyone who asks me, trying to build that base. Also, BlackPython, CombatMuffin and I have done some work on more advanced stuff so we are ready for any mission that comes our way. (Contingencies like “what to do if the gun is facing the completely wrong way for the target, what if parallaxes error is too great for the pantel aiming sight to deal with, etc.) We still have a ways to go before we have solid base of trained artillerymen who are on par with the experienced infantry guys on TG, but we are working on it.

              Finally, you are completely right that map makers are doing a service to the rest of us in investing their time to make something fun for others to play. I do appreciate that gift. I hope nothing posted above implied otherwise. I have made a few (very poor quality) missions, and they took many hours. I don’t know what producing a real quality map requires, but presumably even more time and greater skill. I really am sorry if I came across as unappreciative.

              Thank you to everyone for their replies! I now consider my initial post fully answered by AdeptAbyss, BL1P, and HighSpeedLowDrag. However I would be happy to continue this discussion if anyone has thoughts on artillery in missions and mapmaking.
              The question foremost in my mind is "what will bring the most tactical fun to the server?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Mortars on Domni and Patrol Ops (BRAVO Server)

                I'm so happy about all this ... every toy I've always recevied as a youngster said, "Battieries NOT included."

                We are making really good progress here! :row__534:
                sigpic
                I run my $#@! new school style with old school roots...

                Comment

                Connect

                Collapse

                TeamSpeak 3 Server

                Collapse

                Advertisement

                Collapse

                Twitter Feed

                Collapse

                Working...
                X