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  • Improvements to WAC infantry missions

    Partly spurred by the "hate post" earlier, but mostly because the missions have undergone significant change, I'd like to see if anyone has suggestions for the missions. I've been asking almost everytime I play one on the server, but haven't really gotten much response. People are busy playing, so it is understandable.

    I'd like to hear any suggestions for change/improvement.


    Currently, this is what has changed.

    - Removed "Weapons Section", now it is split into weapons teams (MG, AT, mortars remain elusive). Simplifies the command structure and makes for a better intended use of the Platoon heavy weapons, not just treating the Weapons Section like a regular Section with bigger guns.

    - Changed ammo loadouts. Rifle Sections no longer carry Platoon weapons ammo, no smoke grenades and hand grenades in the rucks. Rifleman are now between 17-20KG (depending on if you have a LAW), LMGs around 24KG, 1ICs around 23KG, 2ICs around 22KGs. Weapons teams are roughly 30KG each.

    - Significant changes to the AI system. All AI squads in the mission are now controlled under the script. Introduced a patrol algorithm and a defense algorithm, improved the AI spotting system allowing for better reaction to a spread out group of players. Units can be retasked now and will not sit around at a useless spot. Cleaned up the missions, less enemy now, but they should be more effective. Artillery has been tweaked, "danger close" limits have been raised for the AI, they had a bad tendancy of driving into their own artillery. Still working on this, possibly a new implementation will be used.

    - Forward Observer can now time delay the artillery by an actual time instead of adding minutes, ie: fire mission at 08:47. Accurate to within about 20 seconds or so.

    - Fixed bugs with the capturing objectives, and taking over the FO scripts. You now actually have to be within the proper radius.


    That's about all I can think of, might be some more stuff in there. I've looked over all the missions and tweaked the objectives to make it less of a walk after the battle, Ciney Line has had an objective removed and made into an entirely new mission.

    Bad news about Schmalfelden, it doesn't use a proper grid reference system, so I will need to modify the FO script considerably to get it to work. In the meantime, players will not be able to have their own artillery.

  • #2
    Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

    Great work as always beta, one suggestion I would add is to remove rucks for line infantry (except SL's (radio) and medics). Now I'm not in the military but it was my impression that rucks are not typically carried into an assault. Now I know this creates an ammo supply problem but perhaps making a couple attack and defend missions with one objective will help reduce walking/ setup time and provide opportunities for resupply. Here's a general idea of how the mission would work:

    Obj 1: 1-2 platoon assault on enemy town. Once opfor is reduced to a certain number PL and SL's get radio option to call in town as secure.

    Obj 2: Hold town. When pl calls in town as secure command says we need you to hold for x mins until reinforcements arrive. They also tell you that a counter attack is expected in y mins and that you will be resupplied with ammo. So then this triggers a AI ammo truck to drive up so everyone has some time rearm and set up defensive positions (possibly depolyable sandbags etc here if you wanted but I wouldn't I think it's fun to use the natural defenses). During this setup time I would also include enemy patrols/ probing attacks so that people have to maintain good perimiter security around the town as squads fall back into the center of town to resupply.

    Then once y mins have gone by here comes a large attack, supported with arty and possibly armor (each mission can be different).

    If the mission does have an armor or mech infantry attack I think giving each squad a law and the wep section getting a dragon in addition to a Carl G would make the sort of standard us getting wasted by armor less frequent and more fun.

    I think this kind of mission using your AI and artillery scrips would be really cool. Other than that I think you have a winning formula for some awesome missions.

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    • #3
      Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

      Well I am sitting in the sun watching a bunch of cars practice around Laguna so I thought I would chime in on my cell...

      On many occasions troops will go into an assault with full "bergens" packed withall their supplies if they are going to be away from base for any length of time. However if they are on day patrol returning to base, the will normally just be wearing their webbing.

      The beauty about ArmA is that there are many different missions for many different tastes. The WAC missions certainly have a certain style to them, some like that, others dont, but whatever the thoughts, Beita should be given solid feedback for elements that people like or dislike. I hope we dont encounter the type of response we saw recently again as you have seen, we as admins simply wont stand for it.
      BlackDog1




      "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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      • #4
        Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

        Only hate post I can think to say about WAC mission.. lol..

        is maybe not enough ammo?

        I find myself using my ammo pretty quick and I notice we're using enemy weapons pretty fast. You might consider having some ammo crates with at least some spare ammo at the starting point. That way we could fall back and rearm if we have to.

        Also.. AT.. one mission we got hit with like 3 BRDMs.. and we probably had 4 AT rounds max ..TOTAL. So more AT. (maybe some of those at a starting point ammo crate).

        Other than that... if you want to keep the whole "no spare ammo or resupply" theme going.. I would reduce the number of enemy present on the map and certainly armor. I think we mission editors are VERY guilty (and me too) of worrying too much about players "wooping" up on the enemy if they are too few. I have rarely seen a map which allows this. Maybe consider that for a WAC map.
        Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. - General George S. Patton.

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        • #5
          Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

          Ammo is certainly an issue. I think it is more related to having too many enemies, I am a big fan of not having weapons or ammo crates around, as they delay the start of the mission significantly.

          AT should be more or less solved. The dedicated AT gunners now have much more ammo available (8 rounds between the a gunner and the gunner), and each Section also has 2 LAWs. Also, 4 BRDMs and a BMP was a little bit ridiculous, don't know what I was thinking on that one hah.

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          • #6
            Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

            Replace the rucks with assault packs. Rucks get dumped in a movement to contact.

            I know that replacing rucks with assaults packs is basically semantics, but... you know.

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            • #7
              Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

              Originally posted by beita View Post
              Ammo is certainly an issue. I think it is more related to having too many enemies, I am a big fan of not having weapons or ammo crates around, as they delay the start of the mission significantly.
              You can add ammo to the rucks via scripting, right? I fully support the lack of weapon and ammo crates (too much "HURR DURR MEDIC WITH M107" in other missions), but the lack of ammo is... challenging.
              Last edited by Apocal; 05-16-2009, 02:38 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                Like BD mentioned, if the mission is themed as being a part of a long campaign away from base, you should have packs with gear. Day patrols, you would have a day pack/assault pack so I think they should be used. As for the weapons section, did you disperse them amongst the squads? Is that what you meant by changing them? If so, then that's cool though personally I like having a dedicated weapons squad. The changes you made sound good though and the biggest issue before was taking on a much larger force while you have no armour support or air support and the enemy had tons of armour and arty too. I understand trying to make up for the AI's stupidity but sometimes it seemed like a bit too much. If you want lots of enemies then I'd suggest having two versions of each map, 1 for a single platoon of bluefor and 1 for 2 platoons of bluefor. Sending a standard equiped plt to tackle so many enemy forces with armour and arty support makes the mission feel unbelieveable that a commander would order one plt to take care of the mission. But it is cool to see that type of mission here and there to give us one hell of a surprise.
                |TG-Irr|LCpl. Soto
                TGULT-Roel Yento

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                • #9
                  Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                  Still trying to find the right balance of forces. Kind of hard when I keep messing with the AI hah. I am going to try and design a mission with a low count of AI and see how they do. I would love to actually give missions with a realistic ratio, ie: 3 players to each AI defending. But, the AI simply isn't proficient enough to be able to put up a good fight. I am thinking of redesigning the missions (most of them) to be more of a meeting engagement rather than a offensive, this would at least "explain" the balance of forces better. Some missions will be retooled completely and be made into proper offensive missions, I am planning on making a few ambush missions and some defensive missions as well.

                  Adding more ammo to the rucks isn't really a viable solution, then you have the problem "Why do I have 45 kilos on me? 'Light' infantry my ass". I recently redid the kit to make the units lighter, as that was a concern. The same amount of ammo is available, minus some hand grenades and smoke grenades.


                  The Platoon weapons have been separated into their own 2-player teams, a Machinegunner and Assistant Machinegunner, a Carl Gustav Gunner and Assistant Carl Gustav Gunner. The purpose of getting rid of the Weapons Section leader was to simplify the command structure, allowing for more redundant leadership; less leader slots equals more 2ICs in general, something important as there are typically high casualties.

                  The Platoon weapons teams are now, more or less, under the control of the Platoon 1IC, he tells them where to go and who to follow. A Section can be dubbed a Weapons Section simply by attaching the weapons teams to them. Or the teams can be attached to separate Sections, or left under the Platoon 2IC, or the Platoon 1IC, etc. etc. Allows for more flexibility.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                    I challenge you beita to make a mission where there are as many enemies as players.. or maybe only 10 or so more. Just get fancy with waypoints and triggers, and some patrol scripting stuff. maybe some random small patrols here and there. A nice sweet 10 minute mission. I bet people would love it.
                    Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. - General George S. Patton.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                      Originally posted by GeneralCarver View Post
                      I challenge you beita to make a mission where there are as many enemies as players.. or maybe only 10 or so more. Just get fancy with waypoints and triggers, and some patrol scripting stuff. maybe some random small patrols here and there. A nice sweet 10 minute mission. I bet people would love it.
                      He has a whole custom set of AI scripts that he uses in his missions. Besides, I really enjoy the challenge that the WAC missions bring, and they are usually fairly balanced.

                      That one we placed a couple days ago was meant to be played with two full platoons (64 people, I think) and we had half. That's why we got rocked.


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                      • #12
                        Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                        Beita, I thoroughly enjoyed your past and enjoying your current missions. Full stop.
                        Hardcore, barebones, old school. Can I get a Hoorah!?

                        TGU Instructor TG Pathfinder

                        Former TGU Dean Former ARMA Admin Former Irregulars Officer

                        "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." - Dag Hammarskjold

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                        • #13
                          Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                          Beita,

                          I think Carver has a point about the ammo. That is usually my biggest bug bear about your missions, is the rather stringent choice on ammo. Fixing weapons is fine, but this is relatively modern warfare simulation and therefore it is perfectly normal to be able to for more ammo.

                          I understand the desire to get things rolling at the start, so ho about this:

                          Set a trigger quite a way inside the battle zone (a farmhouse say) where Blufor can call in an ammo drop. Then use one of Xeno's (or create your own) Helicopter/parachute drop of an ammo crate. Again only the C.O. can call this.

                          No soldier should ever have to consider saving his ammo on a day patrol mission. Especially if the squad wishes to provide suppressing fire while moving into the objective area.

                          Maybe that's an improvement that could be made.

                          BD1
                          BlackDog1




                          "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                            I think the best solution to the ammo problem is having a back pack on the infantry (not the machine gunners or gustav gunners) and give all the rifle man maybe 4 more mags of stanag or for assistant machine gunners 2 extra stanag and another mag of Machinegun ammo. This can be scripted in cant it? If so it will solve the slow start problem and allow them to keep there own weapons for longer and i think those 4 extra mags will help last out the mission unless your really trigger happy.
                            Gregos also known as Sir Jones

                            "War can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun." - Mao Zedong

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Improvements to WAC infantry missions

                              Everyone already has rucks with ammo.

                              The ammo shortages are usually not "real", the player runs out of THEIR ammo and instead of ASKING for ammo from someone else, they immediately loot an enemy weapon. Just bad player habits.

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