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  • To Respawn or not to Respawn?

    I find that many editors are putting in respawn and I feel it takes away from the tactical side of gameplay. It has one advantage in JIP but it destroys everything else I feel this community should stand for.

    It gives the mission designer free reign to make his mission ungodly difficult for the men tasked to the objective. You could put 1500 AI opponents against 5 respawning humans and the humans will eventually win yet no general will ever only send in 5 men at a time to deal with 1500.

    In addition it requires extra manpower for the sole task of transporting the dead men walking.

    To the true dilemma and stake through its heart at least in this community imho, it destroys tactics. Anyone that has played on our servers knows that when there is respawn, people play stupidly. Who the hell cares if you get shot? You'll be back in 10 seconds, 60 seconds, 2 minutes. If you take out one guy now, you can take out another later, and so on. Trying to argue that with good commanders this wont happen is asinine. It happens on every mission with respawn. The group eventually gets fractured because one parts on the front line, another in transport, and the last at base waiting.



    I feel that no respawn missions require more out of us. The designer has to be aware of what is realistically possible with the group he has assembled. Every position in the group must be valuable. Someone playing chauffeur is a huge detriment. The crowning bit of no respawn: It requires players to play in a tactical and smart manner or they don't get to play at all.

    Some arguments I have heard against no respawn:
    - Players cannot JIP: Well then go to the bravo server (which, on a tangent, only one server is ever really populated) and play something with JIP until the current mission is over. Everyone comes up to public lounge when it is and so long as you are sitting there we will grab you

    - Less flying jobs: If you're mission really required someone flying, a no respawn version would still have that job. The job that would really go away is the ferry job, from spawn to front line. That job can easily be scripted in by the AI with something on the order of 4 waypoints. Why would you want a job in which all you do is fly back and forth? I can easily think of better transport missions and Im sure those among us can think of more.

    - One shot your out: The first aid modules help with this (They are not buggy if you use only the battlefield clearance and simulation module, not the action module) but the sad fact is someone is most likely going to die. Keep down and work as a team and this is not a serious issue. A mission designer who puts reasonable goals helps. While dead either A) Watch the remaining action or B) join the other server and wait until the mission is done.



    I know this is a long wall of text, but after all this I would put my vote in for no respawn on purely the basis that we will get more realistic missions out of it. </end rant>
    ---Bellicosity---


  • #2
    Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

    Something that I at least think could be a good middle ground is having a wave respawn on larger missions only after certain objectives are done, and in a way that wouldn't hinder progression to much.
    I.E. On The Longest Day after the first three objectives are complete people could respawn at the carrier, and since everyone should be RTB'ing for ammo and such anyway it's not that much of a problem. (Just an example, not saying someone should edit Longest Day to be like this.)

    Some other missions could have wave respawn every 10/15 minutes. (even 20/30 etc would be better than nothing.)

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    • #3
      Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

      Yeah, unlimited respawn causes problems.

      But.

      I would rather be able to play the game somewhat fluidly rather than having to wait for up to 1 hour between attempts.

      The game is buggy, it has issues, the missions have issues. If you die, lose connection, crash, or someone accidentally TKs you at main base or runs you over when trying to park a car, hey look, you can't play for 1 hour now. I agree that if there is no penalty to the team for dying then respawn missions can easily get pretty bad. Simply limit the number of deaths the players can sustain.

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      • #4
        Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

        Originally posted by beita View Post
        Yeah, unlimited respawn causes problems.

        But.

        I would rather be able to play the game somewhat fluidly rather than having to wait for up to 1 hour between attempts.

        The game is buggy, it has issues, the missions have issues. If you die, lose connection, crash, or someone accidentally TKs you at main base or runs you over when trying to park a car, hey look, you can't play for 1 hour now. I agree that if there is no penalty to the team for dying then respawn missions can easily get pretty bad. Simply limit the number of deaths the players can sustain.
        Thats just delaying the problem. The first life wont mean jack. Play a respawn mission on our server then play a no respawn mission. I will GUARANTEE that the players will play a hell of a lot better on the no respawn mission.



        Originally posted by LT. Razgriz View Post
        Something that I at least think could be a good middle ground is having a wave respawn on larger missions only after certain objectives are done, and in a way that wouldn't hinder progression to much.
        I.E. On The Longest Day after the first three objectives are complete people could respawn at the carrier, and since everyone should be RTB'ing for ammo and such anyway it's not that much of a problem. (Just an example, not saying someone should edit Longest Day to be like this.)

        Some other missions could have wave respawn every 10/15 minutes. (even 20/30 etc would be better than nothing.)
        Well why not break the Longest Day into two (or three) missions that can be done without respawn? One for each section. Thats another thing with respawn missions is that they ridiculously large and complicated. Every respawn mission has you taking over the entirety of Cherarus with 20 guys against hundreds.
        ---Bellicosity---

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        • #5
          Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

          I think revive is easily the best way of having a realistic respawn system. Just 3 or 4 revives should be ok to protect against really silly decisions or crackpot AI.

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          • #6
            Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

            Well, you are not putting forth very valid arguments here ...

            I have played respawn missions and no respawn missions. The players playing "better" on no respawn missions isn't necessarily true.

            Respawn missions certainly take more effort to design, as you have to consider more design issues and problems. A major problem is player management, as you said, you will now have to deal with logistics and the movement of people and equipment. Some people enjoy this aspect of the game, some don't. You also have to be aware of the fact that in a respawn mission, by default you are given an unfair advantage over the AI, you can respawn, they cannot. Most missions counter this by putting more enemy for you to fight. Not generally the best solution, but an easy one.

            If you want a truly balanced mission, you need to consider the enemy assets versus the friendly assets. Like you said, if you can simply respawn forever, 5 players can eventually kill 1500 AI. Add 30 tickets, so if the team dies 30 times, you lose. Also, make the AI respawn as well, and limit the amount they can respawn. Now the players and AI are on equal terms with regard to game design. You have respawning vehicles? So do they. You can outfit your platoon with 15 AT weapons and 10 sniper rifles? So can they (God help you). Balancing game design elements is important.

            No respawn missions are typically more balanced in these elements than respawn missions, as it is difficult or impossible to implement working and reasonable systems for AI respawn, or allowing the AI to choose whatever weapon they think would be best, etc.


            So, what you are seeing when playing a lot of respawn missions is poor game design, be it because the mission designer didn't care, didn't have time, didn't know how, etc. If players can succeed in the mission by respawning over and over again after shooting 1 guy, that is not the fault of respawn, that is the fault of the game design. Generally, the players will pick the tactic that is most effective and easy to do to win, so, if you don't want to see players doing a specific thing, make them lose if they do it.

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            • #7
              Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

              Originally posted by DLBlue View Post
              Well why not break the Longest Day into two (or three) missions that can be done without respawn? One for each section. Thats another thing with respawn missions is that they ridiculously large and complicated. Every respawn mission has you taking over the entirety of Cherarus with 20 guys against hundreds.


              Agree...200%.. Enact the KISs principle (KEEP IT SIMPLE ) and JIP/respawn is not needed.

              But..Map making is an ART and the Artist's do what their muse tells them to..
              |TG|ARMA Pathfinder
              ..now where did I put my keys?

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              • #8
                Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                If the enemies respawned with you... you'd have domination. And if you've been on our teamspeak you already know what 90% of our players think about that.

                Just lately I've been seeing respawn put into missions as something of what I would call a cop out. Its a way to justify putting 500 men against you.
                ---Bellicosity---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                  *Sigh*

                  No, if you have respawning AI you do not have Domination.

                  It's getting kind of embarrassing around here with the amount of bashing that mission is getting. I respect the authour of it VERY much, he has done some extremely high quality work, and has contributed to this community immensely.

                  Yeah, there are some things in Domination that don't encourage teamwork, but the missions seem to be designed for a more general audience.


                  Alright, you do not like respawn, that is apparent. Tell me, how else would you implement a JIP mission then? As far as I can see, there is no other way, in ArmA you could have a JIP no respawn mission where you take "unused" slots, but in ArmA 2 this seems to be impossible.

                  Having a vast majority of the missions being non-JIP is hurting the community. Especially when a lot of them are missions with an expected completion time of 1-2 hours.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                    I always liked Domination, it's just the no teamwork (usually) part I didn't like. Xeno is pretty awesome at mission making/scripting.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                      my opinion on respawn: in public server or semi public server (TG atm) if you dont have respawn, youll never see high player numbers. For some players this is totally acceptable and they prefer small groups of players? However for me coming from PR background where we regularly have TG server and many other servers full with 30 vs 30 and "missions" lasting 2+ hours, seeing 1 hour missions and only 20-30 players tops is, well, underwhelming. My hop for arma2 is to be able to play large scale, COMBINED ARMS combat sim. Having 30 players on a server at a time to me doesn't seem large scale, and you cant possible have much armor/cas support with those low numbers. This game can potentially support 80-100 players, however to get to those numbers you need respawn or you wont ever retain the players on the server to stick around once they die. Join in Progress is key to keeping player population up, since players will have to disconnect, crash or whatever, there is so many circumstances that happen beyond your control in game, that having no respawn usually hinders the mission more than it helps IMO. You only need to play a couple no-respawn missions where the lead elements crash or have to leave to understand what I mean by this.

                      Plain and simple I think respawn is required in order to gain a large player population, unfortunately all the respawn missions Ive seen currently for arma2 simply dont have any system built in that enables a good player behavior, and vanilla arma2 does not leave you with any real options other than to design your own system. If there is no punishment for death, than certainly thats a bad thing but I think you can still have respawn with join in progress and have consequences for death that would mean player behavior changes for the better.

                      If TG was to use only no-respawn missions, I think you'd see player numbers always low and never able to play with a large amount of players unless on a specific event. I'd like TG ArmA2 to get as popular as the PR server - - - 60+ players on at a time with well organized play in both coop AND tvt. With no respawn missions, your shooting yourself in the foot trying to build server pop when as soon as players start dying they start leaving, and joining players join and disconnect after waiting 15 min for a mission to end thats taking way too long.

                      Especially in tvt, having no respawn = very limited appeal. its always a syndrome of "our team killed 10 of them, they killed 15 of us, blabla" knowing exactly how many enemy left is hardly realistic and it resembles more of counterstrike match than a real life operation. I'd love to play an epic long round of TVT in ArmA2 3+ hours (PR players think kashan desert or kozelsk, except with arma2 view distance, weapon lethality and large scale map size). I think arma2 truly has potential to be amazing for alot of players, but here at tg it needs to attract and build more squad leaders and its hard to get experience in playing when these new guys are sitting there waiting for a mission to end or cant get into the server because its 18/18 slots.F

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                        I vote "no respawn"...there I said it

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                          I like Domination. I only play on the TG server and am almost never disappointed at the teamwork level. With larger numbers and players who don't take it seriously enough it can suck though.

                          Can you think of a better mission for newbies who need a walk through? I can't.
                          sigpic
                          |TG-1st|Grunt
                          ARMA Admin (retired)
                          Pathfinder-Spartan 5

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                          • #14
                            Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                            Yes I agree, keeping server pop up with no respawn is hard because of the lack of JIP.

                            If there was a way to have JIP people take open slots and just pop up near their SL while still having no respawn, I would take that every time.

                            Edit: I think I may have just thought of a way to do just that actually. Im thinking something along this:
                            Enable AI. Respawn is still set to bird. When someone dies they'll have to rejoin but thats ok. What we do is put a script in each init of every playable character that says something along the lines of if (this != player) then { leave the group and move to the opposite end of the world, turn off move ai, turn off target ai, turn off autotarget ai}. When a player joins we catch that and have them join their original SL's group and move within 10 meters of their SL.
                            ---Bellicosity---

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                            • #15
                              Re: To Respawn or not to Respawn?

                              Originally posted by beita View Post
                              Yeah, unlimited respawn causes problems.

                              But.

                              I would rather be able to play the game somewhat fluidly rather than having to wait for up to 1 hour between attempts.

                              The game is buggy, it has issues, the missions have issues. If you die, lose connection, crash, or someone accidentally TKs you at main base or runs you over when trying to park a car, hey look, you can't play for 1 hour now. I agree that if there is no penalty to the team for dying then respawn missions can easily get pretty bad. Simply limit the number of deaths the players can sustain.
                              Agreed. When I was playing ArmA1 I had to sit out many a mission because of a disconnect issue, forcing me to seagull the entire round (this did mean that I got a GREAT view of the single lone AI the survivors missed He-Man throw a grenade across the map, directly into their laps as they were taking a success photo).

                              Originally posted by DLBlue View Post
                              Thats just delaying the problem. The first life wont mean jack. Play a respawn mission on our server then play a no respawn mission. I will GUARANTEE that the players will play a hell of a lot better on the no respawn mission.
                              No, they play SLOWER. Slower does not always mean 'better', and I think you're being melodramatic. So your impression is that all the 'scrub' games TG plays with respawning is just everyone running around by themselves, bunnyhopping and pretending they're Rambo? How come I don't remember having this issue on the Evolution server? Or in ArmA1 at all for that matter?
                              Last edited by Uranium - 235; 07-27-2009, 10:10 PM.

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