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  • My hopes for a different future

    I really like post apocalyptic scenarios. Love, The Walking Dead, love the Fallout series etc so DayZ offers me a chance to explore that kind of environment further.
    However, after playing DayZ pretty much from day 1 it has occurred to me that gameplay has phases or stage and dependent on certain factors that gameplay cannot emerge beyond the early phase.

    As I see it there is the raw early stage of gameplay. You spawn in and acquaint yourself with the world, find some basic survival gear. If you survive those early moments you may begin exploring etc and slowly you gear begins to improve.

    Following that initial entry to the game world and first foray into loot collecting you will eventually reach a stage where you want some degree of semi permanency or at the very least a means to store excess equipment. That imperative is very important as a game mechanic. It is the first sign of effectively wishing to break from the 'early game' cycle, of wishing to make progress.

    To me this parallels how canon and history for that matter has demonstrated that humans, in the face of devastation, will seek to rebuild, to reestablish order. It's not simply a matter of food and shelter, though of course they are critical, but of recreating the familiar. In the aftermath of something so traumatic, familiar constructs are comforting and provide intrinsic benefits.

    Furthermore humans are tribal animals. Beyond the security that banding together can obviously provide we seek to group up at an almost primal level. We genetically understand the strength in numbers without even having to consider it. We are by and large drawn to each other.

    To my mind this dynamic is the beginning of phase two of gameplay and behaviour. Many seek to create a home base, band together and begin construction. They seek routines to make sense of the foraging, "I'm getting food and drink", "I'll go on an ammo run". We immediately seek the efficiencies that teamwork can provide to improve our survivability.

    Now a shoot on sight, easy to destroy base building mechanic and things of that ilk to me at least are actually keeping us from evolving. This is actually quite understandable, like the early trials and tribulations of a fledgling, phoenix society. The trauma of the apocalypse would bring the worst out in some, those that lacked morality or humanity prior to the disaster, would, in the absence of law and order revert to the basest instincts. Murder, robbery, destruction and senseless violence would abound. The destruction of bases would be carried out, resource and effort wasted in a genuinely psychopathic orgy of destruction for it's own sake, but people would persevere.

    Now if the destruction of bases remains extremely difficult for individuals, as I believe a degree of realism would dictate it should be, then perhaps a different future for Taviana is possible.

    (Sidebar, I believe it is realistic that the destruction of bases would be very difficult for lone individuals because one man against an armed group would always struggle. It is merely the previous ease of destroying the teamwork of groups that has exaggerated the effect lone individuals can have. That coupled with the timezones and not being able to stand guard effectively gave destructive players free rein to simply log in and kick over some tents. They rarely engaged players in actual gun fights and simply skulked about in the off hours doing disproportionate damage to their true capability.)

    Back on topic. A different future may be possible if bases retain some degree of security. A new phase of gameplay may emerge, a next step in the evolution of DayZ Tavian TG society may be possible if certain mechanics are allowed to prosper and people demonstrate a willingness to go beyond simple loot farming and look into really building.

    For example, what if one group secure Martin Barracks and lock it down. They decide they would like to set themselves up as weapons traders. Now, that's quite and undertaking. They must first build the fortifications, prepare to defend them and then work out a mechanism for establishing their clientele, delivering their product and securing payment.

    Now, in doing all this they will probably need to neglect certain other aspects, after they have specialised somewhat as an experiment. They will have need of building materials, food, water, vehicles (if they wish to deliver).

    In response to this enterprise what if another group took it upon themselves to secure a prosperous 'building materials' supply. They fortified the area and staffed it with basic security. Now they have the materials on site but it's still a fairly large undertaking, both in time and people. This would potentially reduce their ability to scavenge weapons and ammunition. No problem, they can trade building supplies for weapons and ammo.

    Now a building supplies yard where you can roll up and barter for everything you need to build multiple fortifications would be a very valuable business indeed. You might need extra security. That's where another group comes in. They don't have access to valuable loot spawn perhaps but they do have something of value to trade, and in the meantime they can scavenge supplies for that business and their own Private Military Company.

    Now all this commerce is going to need wheels and who better to provide them then a car dealer?
    The procurement, repair and sale of vehicles would I imagine be a very profitable line to be in, imagine how much a helo might cost. However, holding such a valuable car lot would probably require a fair bit of security and a lot of fortification. Here comes that trading again.

    Those vehicles are going to need fuel. What if the Taviana Petroleum Group sprung up, secured as many gas stations as possible and sought to 'monetise' that asset?
    All these establishments would attract unwanted attention, bandits and vandals etc. There's another job for someone right there and perhaps a kind of anarchist type role for bandits to assume if the mood takes them.

    Ultimately I imagine it could be conceivable that groups could end up building shanty towns, irrespective of map location. Small container cities with multiple gates, people living out of tents, fires burning at night, free trade going on. Imagine how much hostile outside interest a TG Shanty town would attract, imagine fighting to defend it. Imagine the view at night from the surrounding hills, campfires burning, people walking about their business, the tension as the gates go up and a raiding group drive out in convoy to track bandit or procure supplies from the building merchant to further expand the 'city'.

    These are my hopes for some version of DayZ in the future, I believe much of it is possible now but it will require imagination and determination to make it happen. I believe if just some of these possibilities are realised then we can explore a whole new chapter in the history of DayZ at TG, with all the attendant teamwork, risk and excitement that entails.

    Perhaps I've played too much Fallout, watched too many films, but I dream one day of walking up to the gates of TG's very own Megaton, knocking and having someone I know open the door!;)



  • #2
    Re: My hopes for a different future

    If I can be fresh start Funsize, I'll help with your post apocalypse dream shanty town.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Re: My hopes for a different future

      I have always wanted to wake up next to a horribly mutated Wickens. ;)

      Jokes aside I fancy the idea of having a TG controlled town that is actually secure.
      sigpic|TG-6th|ghadlan
      [unit][armor]

      Sure I have flown plenty of choppers, I have just never landed one.

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      • #4
        Re: My hopes for a different future

        Originally posted by Wicks View Post
        (Sidebar, I believe it is realistic that the destruction of bases would be very difficult for lone individuals because one man against an armed group would always struggle. It is merely the previous ease of destroying the teamwork of groups that has exaggerated the effect lone individuals can have. That coupled with the timezones and not being able to stand guard effectively gave destructive players free rein to simply log in and kick over some tents. They rarely engaged players in actual gun fights and simply skulked about in the off hours doing disproportionate damage to their true capability.)
        I agree. I think we have finally proven the justification for the 'instanced' bases of the Standalone.

        . . .
        Personally, this is with the tinfoil hat off, I think all that stuff is fine and dandy. However there is a
        problem when the act of claiming it is the act of owning it to perpetuity. I can block off an entire
        locale with insurmountable crates. Say, well I own it now, and walk off and a way denying anyone
        access to it with no desire to trade its contents. Say I did that for Martin. I'm just one guy
        who 'acquired' a bunch of construct-able items and built the 'Great-Wall-of-Martin'. Okay so say
        you kill me here and stage a daring assault to take it from me, but you can't because you can't get in,
        because you don't own constructed items you that whole endeavor was worthless and I just get
        back there after the death.

        If this is what you want we need some other mechanics going on. Some form of territory ownership.

        Also just know the politics of Dayz might make more people mad at you than not. Cartels are known for
        being ruthless at times for a reason.

        Ultimately I imagine it could be conceivable that groups could end up building shanty towns, irrespective of map location. Small container cities with multiple gates, people living out of tents, fires burning at night, free trade going on. Imagine how much hostile outside interest a TG Shanty town would attract, imagine fighting to defend it. Imagine the view at night from the surrounding hills, campfires burning, people walking about their business, the tension as the gates go up and a raiding group drive out in convoy to track bandit or procure supplies from the building merchant to further expand the 'city'.

        These are my hopes for some version of DayZ in the future, I believe much of it is possible now but it will require imagination and determination to make it happen. I believe if just some of these possibilities are realised then we can explore a whole new chapter in the history of DayZ at TG, with all the attendant teamwork, risk and excitement that entails.

        Perhaps I've played too much Fallout, watched too many films, but I dream one day of walking up to the gates of TG's very own Megaton, knocking and having someone I know open the door!;)
        I want a Dhalgren like experience. Welcome to the City of Bellona!

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        • #5
          Re: My hopes for a different future

          I don't think I suggested things should be indestructible, apologies if you got that impression. I think structures need to be very difficult to remove as an individual, however if a group got together and were determined then removal of said structures would be feasible. The idea being that some degree of permanency is introduced, that the will of the majority can be imposed, that lone wolfing is difficult, that teamwork is rewarded.

          Cartels could be ruthless, that's the point, there would be several cartels quite possibly, not one. I have no doubt that trade wars would break out, people would charge too much when bartering or one venture might try to expand into other business areas. Far more interesting to me than "ooh I kicked your tent over last night", commences bean foraging, "and I'm kicking your tent over tonight in retaliation". If people want to play bandit, excellent, let them and give them an 'actual society' to rail against, not a pretend one. Give them a construct to try to disrupt and sow anarchy in.

          I love the idea of a fuel convoy being attacked or a 'container city' being sieged by an organised force of bandits. Smacks far more of a story that has got past the first chapter. It also makes sense to me that one bandit would struggle to attack say the PMC group on the server alone, however he may be able to hit them when they go to trade for gas or pick up supplies.

          I wouldn't want to neuter banditry, far from it. I want it to make sense, to have a proportionate effect, for it's targets to be intelligently chosen, as opposed to log in, run around like it's COD, who cares if I died, I briefly inconvenienced someone. I want bandits to have to work at what should be a challenging and extremely dangerous role.

          Also please don't think I am saying this is the 'right way' to play DayZ. These are my personal preferences and thoughts on what might need to be in place to arrive at "my version" of the future.


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          • #6
            Re: My hopes for a different future

            I LOVE this vision wicks!

            The biggest hindrance to a trader economy IMHO, is that supplies aren't regionally exclusive - except for the gear that spawns in Martin . I think the martin experiment would have been much less provocative if there were other sites that were the exclusive (or near exclusive) source of other complimentary gear. Today, one can't become the go-to-source for flares, or car-tires, or beans, or morphine or any other commodity because they spawn everywhere.

            edit: So, any group that seizes Martin doesn't necessarily need to trade what they find; they can simply deprive everyone else of that exclusive gear [and based on the vague revelations of intentions at the time of the Martin lock-down, it's not surprising, to me anyway, that people might have assumed that end.]

            On the other hand, imagine if there was one sand-pit on the island, three hospitals, one tire factory, two scrap-yards, two water-treatment plants, etc, etc..

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            • #7
              Re: My hopes for a different future

              I see a good future for Taviana.TG Dayz. I just finished talking to Buflak about how to recognize a need and be the supply of it to all who are willing to participate. I asked him about a certain piece of property and suggested to not walk away but fix it and trade that area to another interested party for a small fee of 5 to ten tank traps a week for a month. We also discussed other possibilities but without giving away my ideas before I am able to organized a business plan or that other parties will turn this into a political storm I will not elaborate on the details yet. But, I will say this, we have to start thinking outside of the box. Wicks had some good starting points for just doing that and if we can grow outside of our own selfish mindsets of how we think things should flow according to what game style or play we migrated from than the possibilities are open.

              I will give you a hint, for starters, eveyone on Taviana needs a place to put their hat. There is a space for one, two, three or more people somewhere out there on the island. Find it, fix it up, put it up for sale or trade to this community or other groups outside our community. I will not go further into what I see can be done with this, I need you to stop and think past your water bottle fix and cooked meat mentality.

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              • #8
                Re: My hopes for a different future

                Just as an aside, I'd like to remind everyone that we're NOT using the standard taviana loot-map. Vehicles are all over the place and the Martin base is NOT the only military spawn that generates very-rare gear.

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                • #9
                  Re: My hopes for a different future

                  Exactly Sarge and thank you Whiskey.

                  I feel I need to address a couple of points. None of this is after the event rationalisation for seizing the Martin barracks. The reaction to that doesn't concern me much, perhaps other than the lack of imagination which can be perhaps blamed on the lack of explanation.

                  Secondly, Martin is not the only high end military spawn, my own travels have taught me that. In fact the availability of all supplies in more than one location only serves to stimulate the 'economy' in the sense of the potential for price wars. Plus, as ever in a consumer economy, you have that other prime motivator, convenience. If I know say I am a HVT because I control the gun trade in a certain area then I am going to be more conscious about my security. As such I may wish to limit any uneccessary personal exposure on scavenging missions, a time when one can be extremely vulnerable as to maximise carry weight you may travel light, weapon wise.

                  However, I am an arms dealer, I have a stockpile of weapons and ammo. Why would I scavenge for the supplies to fortify my base and my 'financial interest' when I can go to Sarge say, with an appointment of course, and simply trade for everything I need to build 4 containers in one go. Sarge gets the weapons and ammo he needs to defend his interests without having to devote time to acquiring them, which could be better served acquiring stock for sale. Convenience would drive the economy.

                  If you don't have a vehicle it's going to be dangerous going to an out of the way area to piecemeal scavenge material. So, do you spend your 'resource' on getting a vehicle. If so what do you have to trade. High value areas would in effect become focal points, as they would in reality. As such they would attract bandits because of the activity. That would create further demand for protection, fortification, weapons and ammunition. Bandits may decide to occupy the hinterlands to avoid detection, living off what they can 'rob'. In turn this would give them time to build their own bases, albeit smaller perhaps for security reasons. If they were smaller they would need less supplies making the outlying areas perfectly viable for them.

                  Eventually the map would change. You would have built up areas because of actual activity, residence etc and badlands where bandits were known to roam fairly freely, swooping into populated areas to raid when they got desperate or felt the urge.

                  I've devoted too much time to thinking about this lo.


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                  • #10
                    Re: My hopes for a different future

                    Originally posted by WhiskeySix View Post
                    I think the martin experiment would have been much less provocative if there were other sites that were the exclusive (or near exclusive) source of other complimentary gear..
                    There is another location on Taviana that is a High Value Military Spawn site with the same gear that spawns in the Barracks. Apo also made it clear one should not use the offline loot maps as spawn locations and values (low/mid/high) had been altered on Taviana.TG.

                    I share Wicks complete vision. Problem is people whine too much as opposed to just playing it out and seeing what happens. If we could pull off Wicks vision, this server would be awesome!

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                    • #11
                      Re: My hopes for a different future

                      We have the potential of going beyond a Dayz typical game style of zombies, bandits and survivors of actually providing to the outside Dayz community a Taviana map that will help newcomers, whether single or group to have a place to put their hats, mingle within the community centers, and interact with the populace. All at a price, that is affordable yet will keep the economy thriving and moving forward. This will also provide the bandits and grievers targets, but the TG members I mingle with love a good mudrat hunt once in awhile anyway. You don't want to wake up that bear.

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                      • #12
                        My hopes for a different future

                        Wicks we share the same vision. Hence my recent post ;)

                        TGU Instructor TG Pathfinder

                        Former TGU Dean Former ARMA Admin Former Irregulars Officer

                        "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." - Dag Hammarskjold

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                        • #13
                          Re: My hopes for a different future

                          Your explanation and vision makes me want to get into this game. As if ARMA2 isn't addictive enough :)

                          Current ARMA Development Project: No Current Project

                          "An infantryman needs a leader to be the standard against which he can judge all soldiers."

                          Friend of |TG| Chief

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                          • #14
                            Re: My hopes for a different future

                            Wicks all my point was that with current mechanics doing what you suggest isn't necessarily
                            problem free. To realize your vision there would need to be some further mechanic to territory.
                            Elsewise, as an asset denial mission, I'd block all important spawns with the currently immovable
                            containers.

                            Finally, I'll trade well for just intelligence about where I could find high grade military loot beyond
                            Martin and the Castle.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: My hopes for a different future

                              One of the additions that I would like to see, perhaps in standalone since I doubt very seriously that the A2 game mechanics will allow it, is similar to YT's suggestion of "capturing" an area and Wick's idea of knocking on the doors of Megaton:

                              I'd like to see some kind of mechanic introduced that would eliminate zombie spawns from a "secured" area. An example of how this might work is as follows:
                              Someone decides to set up a specialized group dealing in car parts and industrial supplies, as Wicks suggested with the specialized economics model. As such, they take the prime real estate in Ekaterinburg. But this isnt some ramshackle setup, and these guys come prepared. Two on guard duty popping endless hordes of zombies from the 30 or so zombie spawns inside the complex while the others furiously build. Within a couple of hours, The entire complex consisting of the 2 high value buildings, the warehouses, container yard and 6 cylinders are fenced in by double-high shipping containers. There are gates set up at the north and west exits. A bunker has been erected in the courtyard and tents have been pitched for storage. Hell, these guys even have a water pump.

                              Now, in our current iteration, that would mean that these guys just essentially committed base-suicide by securing a base that has 30 zombie spawns that crank out the biters faster than you can kill them (mostly). The change that i'd like to see would be something that would eliminate said zombie spawns once a continuous perimeter had been formed around them by buildable objects.

                              For those that dont get it, heres a graphic represetnation:
                              Unsecured ekaterinburg (its a crude representation, I did it in 3 minutes at work, shut up) with the green dots representing zombie spawns:


                              And secured ekaterinburg with the red walls now representing a completely enclosed area (again, green dots representing zombie spawns, but notice that there are none inside the compound now):

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