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  • Common sense

    Hi there,

    Here is a nice dilema for the community, and would like to know TG points of view about it.

    We are on the map where UK is on the airfield and Taki militia must hold the mine (don't recall the map name), we have been playing for more than 80 min. I was part of a great squad good comm. Sq. Leader was doing a good job, fire team leader was not too bad so far.

    We only have two objectives left to capture outpost and the center of the village. , our FOBs was light years from the final objectives and off course retarded pilots landed all assets nowhere and only one chopper was left. I & Sq. Leader dropped a FOB create west of the outpost outside the build boundaries in a small coumpound. We where only 2 for this op the rest of the squad was trying to cap outpost, so we didnt deployed the FOB assuming we will be back after caping OP. Near 90% completion we get totally raped by ennemy arty and are forced to spawn back to main airfield since all other location are not usefull at all.

    At airfield only one chopper is left, a bunch of noob was trying to pilot it without the proper kit, so i took the lead and got to the command before they spoil it. I tell my squad that I'm now in control of the asset, then land in front of hangar and we fill the chopper to capacity (both hardware and soldier). We take off initial plan was to land near FOB asset to deploy it and win outpost then Fire TL decide we should deploy a new fob at a other location. In mid fly fire team leader finlay decide where he want the LZ on top of the south hill behind the village (near small military compound) on my final approach maybe 1.5 click from lz i can clearly see there is at last one full squad and 2 technical on the lz all these manned and quite pissed off, advise him to reconsider.

    Pissed off, he yelled like a mad man to STFU and land where he decided (which in my book is a hot soup of death). Now at least half of the UK side was in that chopper, losing it was clearly not a option in my mind I refused to comply and landed west where I knew we left the FOB crate. We setuped the FOB claimed outpost and overrun the hill by flanking them, 10 min later we won with minimal casualities...

    The SL, was totaly pissed off! I tried to explain how I saved everyone "life" and clearly this was a better move (the results was a good proof) The only thing he cared about was the fact that I clearly disobeyed orders which I do admit but for the good of all inthis case. I was clearly in a better position than him to judge the situation, other squads was also present in the chopper, in my book I was the person in charge of the safety of everyone aboard.

    Not to sure how this is handle IRL do common sense prevail on lemmings order? Is pilot judgement > blind CO? I do understand the need to have troops follow blindly orders in order to have predictable results, but on the other side I guess they don't put brain dead in commands (well hope)

    I find the dilema rather interesting, and would like to know your toughts about it!

    TLDR: Received a braindead order, didn't followed it, saved lots of live and we won, is it good or bad?

    PS: The SL supposly reported this behavior (not sure where) if he actually did, at least you have my side of the story. You can back this up with NomNom which was in the back and witness the scene.

    PPS: Thx TG for your great server :)

    ADMIN NOTE: Edited to take out the player names, to keep things fair to both parties.
    Last edited by Jeepo; 09-22-2011, 05:44 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Common sense

    You were the pilot right?

    If so...

    It is up to you where to land. If you felt that the LZ was too hot and would have been a detriment rather than help the team. Gotta remember, you hold all of their lives in your role that you selected... I think that you made a good one, just chalk this up to end of round frustration, but good to know you guys won the round!






    "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Common sense

      Yup that's also my point of view, but do you know if in real life pilots get martial courted or squad leader is second in command when he's in the back of a chopper?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Common sense

        Hmmm. Firstly, I find it best if you don't call out peoples names in public for this stuff, instead report the incident to admins in the CAA link in my signature. However, admin hat of, looking at the story.....

        I have been playing PR for years. Once in the chopper, the pilot gets final say. HE is in charge of his vehicle, and the people in it, and gets the right to wave off the landing if it is too hot. At the end of the day, at least the bird and the squad live. Helicopters are HUGE assets to the team in PR, losing them is bad news, you get punished logistically and in tickets for it crashing. So I have always given the pilot final authority, thats the "done thing".

        A poor attitude is not needed from the player mentioned, and I will have a word with him about it. I will edit your original post to take out his name.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Common sense

          Snoop is a spammer ^

          In real life, infantry are clearly subordinate to the pilot transporting them (Pilots are generally far better educated, for one). The aircrew also consists of a crew-chief who is directly responsible for relating instructions or giving information to the passengers. This is why I think that on air-heavy maps (Iron Forge/Feruz Abad Resistance) air trans needs its own separate commander. Something like a JFACC:

          Taken from Wikipedia:

          Joint Force Air Component Commander (JFACC), is a United States Department of Defense doctrinal term.

          It refers to an individual of general officer rank that is responsible for air forces within a joint operations environment. The term "air forces" encompasses aircraft of Air Force and Naval variants, not already designated to specifically support ground forces (i.e. a Marine Air Wing as part of a MAGTF or "organic" Army aviation assets)

          The tool by which the JFACC tasks assets is called an air tasking order (ATO).

          As defined in Joint Publication 1-02 1, the JFACC is:

          "The commander within a unified command, subordinate unified command, or joint task force responsible to the establishing commander for making recommendations on the proper employment of assigned, attached, and/or made available for tasking air forces; planning and coordinating air operations; or accomplishing such operational missions as may be assigned. The joint force air component commander is given the authority necessary to accomplish missions and tasks assigned by the establishing commander."
          This means that generally the air asset coordination should be run through a skilled aviator who acts as a combined air command and air-traffic controller since they are better able to understand the 'view from the sky'.

          When I fly transport, squad leaders ALWAYS need to suck it up and deal with where I put them. So long as you're in your own squad they have no jurisdiction to tell you how to do your job unless you're clearly being incompetent.

          When I lead the air-wing I write down all LZ requests and approve them for my subordinate pilots using the map/comms to detail which sites are and which sites aren't safe to land at. Also, recommending LZs with improved natural cover or where a low approach is possible increases the survivability of your helicopters.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Common sense

            Originally posted by 1n7r3p1d View Post
            When I fly transport, squad leaders ALWAYS need to suck it up and deal with where I put them.
            This attitude, when presented like this, goes for leaps and bounds to undo any work at changing the perception of pilots from skilled fellow warriors to casually dismissal a-holes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Common sense

              Ask yourself who is flying the asset worth a fistful of tickets?

              Ask yourself who is hitching a 'free' ride and could otherwise base-deploy to an FOB?

              Pilot's bird. Pilot's call. That simple.

              Unless you or the pilot actually have someone higher up you're responsible to.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Common sense

                I agree with Jack and Jeepo here. I firmly believe that since helicopters are such of vital importance in PR:Arma (the maps are sooo big) than people who fly them should have a good terrain knowledge, lots of single player practice and a solid sense of situation awareness. You are in charge. This is why i believe that choppers should always have their own squad. Squad commander can request supply or transport via the commanding channel. I understand that in this situation you took the pilot role 'last minute' and i think you did the right thing.

                my 2 cents


                -Rat
                sigpic


                Dont be shy, add me on Steam by clicking the icon below.



                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Common sense

                  I think you did the right thing for all the above listed reasons.
                  I would only add that even if it was your SL who told you to land in the hot zone it is better to risk his anger than lose the aircraft.
                  After all, he can't bring you before a court martial.
                  You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,
                  So that when they turn their backs on you,
                  You'll get the chance to put the knife in.Pink Floyd "Dogs"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Common sense

                    Intrepid I didn't say you were wrong, I said that imposing the attitude "My way or no way" is a terrible way to do business as a pilot. There's a lot of leeway SLs will generally cut you if you demonstrate you're happy to work with them on what they need, especially if you don't condescendingly dismiss their request as unfeasible because the LZ is too hot.

                    "I can't so I won't" tends to garner less interest than "I want to, but it's dangerous, how about.."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Common sense

                      I'm split. If the bird was a part of a different squad: He'd be right. As it stands, though, that Bird was effectively nothing more than an oversized Flying Ural...

                      Let me put it this way: You were in his squad as a subordinate taking an asset only momentarily to help that squad leader fullfill a mission he wanted. Its not like that bird would continue to be yours after that one mission was fulfilled/failed. In this case I see the helicopter as being only a tool to serve a purpose, not an option.

                      If you weren't in his squad and a CO wasn't telling you to do it, then you'd be golden. But by being in his squad to momentarily use the helicopter to set up an FOp.... you are nothing more than a Ural Driver.

                      To kinda let things be understood: Our Squad Leader was perhaps the ONLY objective minded SL for the entirity of the game. We had spent minutes sitting on points and capturing them at full rate even only to be mortared off! In a round full of team level *newness to the game* our squad was pulling the weight of the team to a painful victory! So lets just think that the SL could have been frustrated all over. I think we all were.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Common sense

                        Originally posted by Ytman View Post
                        I'm split. If the bird was a part of a different squad: He'd be right. As it stands, though, that Bird was effectively nothing more than an oversized Flying Ural...

                        Let me put it this way: You were in his squad as a subordinate taking an asset only momentarily to help that squad leader fullfill a mission he wanted. Its not like that bird would continue to be yours after that one mission was fulfilled/failed. In this case I see the helicopter as being only a tool to serve a purpose, not an option.

                        If you weren't in his squad and a CO wasn't telling you to do it, then you'd be golden. But by being in his squad to momentarily use the helicopter to set up an FOp.... you are nothing more than a Ural Driver.

                        To kinda let things be understood: Our Squad Leader was perhaps the ONLY objective minded SL for the entirity of the game. We had spent minutes sitting on points and capturing them at full rate even only to be mortared off! In a round full of team level *newness to the game* our squad was pulling the weight of the team to a painful victory! So lets just think that the SL could have been frustrated all over. I think we all were.

                        I understand and respect your view. However i disagree with it. By taking the pilot kit, the player assumed the pilot role, with all the authority and responsibilities that comes with it. Urals are common, choppers are less common (i was about to say are not common, but it would not be true :) ) By that i mean helicopters are a more central asset to the team and their losses hurt the team a lot more than urals.

                        So momentarily, in my opinion, the pilot had authority on his squad leader for that particular call. However, landing under fire is sometimes necessary, but not if the objective can still be accomplished by landing a couple hundred meters off target, in my opinion.



                        -Rat
                        sigpic


                        Dont be shy, add me on Steam by clicking the icon below.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Common sense

                          Well lets look at it in another light.

                          You were landing at an LZ that was hot. Was there a friendly squad there to help lay down cover fire for you to touchdown?

                          Were you picking people up in a hot LZ that said team could have provided cover fire for your landing?



                          The above two are nice additions to have in a hot LZ. Something to take some attention off the people shooting at you. If I were a pilot, and the OPs original situation occurred, and you landed within a reasonable distance of the desired LZ, a little bit of walking/ running is not going to hurt the squad. Markers are not mean for point direction. This mark is here so you go here. What happens when stuff changes when your on route or like what happened described by the OP? Stuff needs to be improvised. Even if there was a CO, I still would have landed differently. This was a lot of tickets that was in danger, it was a lot of personnel that could change the tide at that location.

                          Instead of being pissed at the pilot for trying to help the team, be pissed at the others that were on the ground not helping with an LZ, or helping CAP & DEFEND stuff. I know speed is crucial sometimes, but it seems as though people forget this is not a game for those tactics sometimes. Thinking actually can win, and you have time to do so. People bitch about how long it takes to cap something. Then why dont we take advantage of that and actually come up with decent counter attack philosophies instead of insisting on rushing into a situation where you have no intel??






                          "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population....Tactical Gamer is not mainstream. We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers" ~ Apophis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Common sense

                            Debate is good gentlemen, however I am watching. A few points. Assumptions based on your sole perspective of the battlefield are folly, they are naive and fundamentally flawed.

                            To kinda let things be understood: Our Squad Leader was perhaps the ONLY objective minded SL for the entirity of the game.
                            Oh really, let things be understood by what, your perspective, your opinion. Conjecture at best.

                            In a round full of team level *newness to the game* our squad was pulling the weight of the team to a painful victory! So lets just think that the SL could have been frustrated all over. I think we all were.
                            Again, highly subjective and pure opinion. Nor does anyone's frustration level excuse abusing other players or projecting hostility on the server.

                            I am delighted that despite the game only being in beta stage, and then only for a matter of weeks, that we have such experts amongst us. Despite being in charge of both PR Titles, playing PR:BF for 4-5 years and a long time on Arma I am under no illusions as to my level of expertise at this new title. I've also probably employed just about every infantry tactic in the book and studied more. Yet despite this I approach each game as a learning experience and look to develop my knowledge in this new arena. Again I know I have much to learn as an SL in this new game, particularly as the opportunity's afforded by the engine are so unique.

                            Maybe I will improve more quickly if I can actually spend more time playing and less time monitoring issues on the server. In other words tone down the attitude, the "I know best", "what is that squad doing" stuff. You don't know best. If a squad is finding it's feet they are to be encouraged, assisted and respected. Give them time to learn and be courteous about.

                            I'll state this for the record now, loud and clear, this isn't some lame ass clan tournament and we aren't some lame ass clan. My primary goal in these early days is to see new players get to grips with the title and slowly lay the foundations for good tactical play. It is on these foundations that this particular community within a community will be built.

                            Elitism, "GO, GO, GO" pressure and looking down on people for admittedly learning a title, rather than claiming they know it all already won't be tolerated. I have actually had some amusing yet condescending lectures from self appointed Armchair generals myself, usually consisting of 1 parts egotism to 2 parts stating the bleeding obvious. It didn't end well.

                            Shape up, mind your tone, respect other players, communicate and don't forget to enjoy it.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Common sense

                              I also agree with the pilot in this that he wouldve known best. Whether the pilot was in the same sqd with the people he was carrying or not. I wouldve also done the same thing. You are the pilot of a full chopper and you see that your LZ is hot and your most likely going to perish on that landing. so why would you land there knowing that youre going to die? I think you did the right thing in going a bit off course and land somewhere where its safe for you, the chopper and the sqd inside it.

                              Comment

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