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CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

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  • CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

    Hey guys. After reading through some of the discussion on the main PR Forums (not TG), I have decided to start a discussion on here.

    This strategy is partially linked to the whole "Squad Alpha FT1 + FT2" concept JaFaR has been experimenting with.

    With the new advantages of the attack helicopters(thermals) and some of the new assets to assist them(Kiowa, CO UAV[when it is back online]) and disadvantages/balancing (3D Markers removed, BVR=N/A) the possibility of Attack Choppers(AC from now on) flying realistically is a possibility.

    My main proposal is to have the CAS squad set up like this:

    Fireteam 1:

    FT1: Tasked to Air Operations
    SL: Main Spotter/Communications Officer
    SM1: Pilot 1
    SM2: Pilot 2
    SM3: Gunner 1
    SM4:Gunner 2
    .::NOTE::. If there is only 1 AC and a Scout Chopper(SC), then FT1 may take control of the SC.
    .::NOTE TO AC's::. If there are hostile VMADS(explained below) or hostile SSAME(also explained below), try to have first CAS strike on the Anti-Air, and the second strike on the DESTARG (Designated Target).

    Fireteam 2

    FT2: Tasked to Ground Operations (This depends on the map)
    SL: Secondary Spotter/Communications Officer

    Case 1: Vehicle Mobile Air Defense System (VMADS) Available
    SM1: VMADS Driver 1
    SM2: VMADS Gunner 1
    SM3: VMADS Driver 2
    SM4: VMADS Gunner 2

    C1 Outline:
    VMADS 1 and 2 move out on call of CAS request. FTL1 + FTL2 plan ahead on the fastest path to target, as well as safest. FTL1+2 recon the route to make sure there are zero or minimal INF or ARM threats. (FTL1+2 also, hopefully using high accuracy weapons, disable any SAM sites active) As VMADS 1/2 enter the general return path set out for the AC's in the field, AC1(+2) move out on flight path. AC1(+2) attack designated target, and return on the DRP(Designated Return Path). VMADS engage any perusing aircraft, hopefully before they can engage friendly aircraft.

    Case 2: No VMADS Available - Scout Chopper Available
    SM1: SSAME (Stationary Surface-Air Missile Emplacement)
    SM2: MANPADS Equipped
    SM3: SC Pilot (If FT1 assumes control: Possible 2nd SSAME)
    SM4: SC Observer (If FT1 assumes control: Possible 2nd MANPADS, ((would require help from FT1))

    C2 Outline:
    Due to VMADS not being available, at start of round FT1 + FT2 equip with 1(2) MANPADs system(s), and designate a return path for AC CAS runs. FT1+2 set 1(2) FOB on that return path and place ONLY a SSAME at the FOB(s). FT1+2 destroys FOB so that they do not hinder their team or have people spawn. Soldiers manning the SSAME should have Rifleman Kits + Crates so they may resupply their SSAME.
    SC Crew should be using the SC to assist in the designation of targets while working wit FTL1+2. If necessessary SC shall engage targets with mounted weapons.
    Case 2 strategy should then follow the general outilne of Case 1 on Engagement Routes and DRPs.


    The purpose of the complexity is to AVOID contact with enemy aircraft and let others deal with them. If needed the friendly aircraft can engage hostile, but in my opinion, the faster they RTB, the faster they're safe.

    I am currently thinking out routes and situations on my Tablet PC, might post some up if I get them refined, but it isn't my main focus.

    Well this is what I have for now. I know there are a lot more situations and cases that will have to change the set up of the Fire Teams, but I hope you get the just. Now:

    Last edited by ZephyrDark; 11-05-2010, 12:45 PM.
    Blackpython / ZephyrDark
    Former 31st RECCE Member

  • #2
    Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

    Last edited by Warlab; 11-05-2010, 01:11 PM. Reason: deleted



    • #3
      Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

      Warlab, this is about Attack Helicopters, not Jets. This also was only a proposal that is still partially a WIP. Now that I think of it, one of the things that might be fine is to reduce FT2 to half of a squad about and only man one VMADS or SSAME.

      Could also make it so the Air Operations FT is reduced to 1 Helo at a time due to the nature of this style of CAS.

      The purpose of this is NOT to kill the opposing Attack Helo's, but to protect your own while still providing CAS to your team.
      Blackpython / ZephyrDark
      Former 31st RECCE Member


      • #4
        Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

        I saw that Zeph and deleted while you were posting.
        Sorry Bro.



        • #5
          Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

          I like this idea, if I get it right. What I read into this is AA working with helicopters creating a flight path, especially on rendezvous and/or safe zone for the helicopter.

          I don't think coordination at this level between AA and helicopter has been done before and it would be interesting to play out.

          One aspect I am tentative with the layout is anti-armour. I believe the layout of the ground squad should have at least a HAT. Reason being to knock down enemy AA/other armour within the zone of control.

          Speaking of the zones of control, it seems that the response time to put AA into position would be slow and would rely on a more static AA defence. Therefore the weakness would be response time to the enemy, its strength in theory being the ability to claim airspace and overall protection of air space and air assets.

          I am not sure as to its effectiveness besides a kind of static or entrenched function, especially if the enemy thrust a counter or the AA positions are weakened by a loss of assets, are too strung apart (without valuable airspace and ground cover maintained), or both.

          I do like the cobweb-like infrastructure though and its value as a force to be reckoned with in theory, especially the value of keeping air dominance and firepower. Also I can see how this could work with other units but again a weakness would be if it was too concentrated on the value of keeping airspace/assets to the detriment of all others; that would be fatal. The function of this set up therefore should be with a priority first and foremost as support to the team's other units like infantry, armour and tasks, and secondly the helicopters. Also, then, is a strong emphasis on flexibility, dominoing to the rest of the team. A too-a-heavy reliance on air support if it were to go wrong would be catastrophic as much as its known strength, in matches, and therefore should not be placed first in reliance, full stop. When it works though, as we know, it works thunderously but as said, it would be a huge error to rely on it solely and so must work in conjunction with other units; its awesome effectiveness being a bonus, not the solution.

          Theory aside, the proof is in the pudding: I'd be willing to volunteer a good few rounds to operate AA, or other ground function, in its testing.
          Last edited by Taip3n; 11-05-2010, 02:49 PM. Reason: spelling


          • #6
            Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

            I agree with Taip3n, there needs to be some sort of AT ground unit. I was in a squad on Kashan running APC's, and we took one AA Car and one APC. The APC was able to protect the AA from infantry and light armor threats. Any tanks came rolling along, we had to rely on the CAS to help us out. But we ended up gunning down 3 or 4 enemy AC without ever losing the AA, and keep our CAS from getting shot down. Those Mobile AA platforms are absolutely deadly. With the zoom capabilities in the targeting system, you can lock onto an enemy aircraft through flares. Also, since they carry 4 rounds in a "clip" or can fire 4 rounds before they need to reload, I think having two in a relatively small area to be overkill. That's a lot of AA firepower.

            So my recommendation would be to replace one AA with an APC. Preferably something with a TOW launcher, so you can take out the heavy armor. Other than that I think this would be a very effective strategy, and would love to help try it out.


            • #7
              Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion


              You sure Zoom affects the AA lock cone angle?
              |TG-12th| Namebot


              • #8
                Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

                Why have an AT with you when you have the attack chopper in direct comms? Your job is to support him in this case, so I'm sure he will be the first to rush over and support you in case of amour, especially with FT 2 SL being a spotter.

                Unless the CAS strikes are being done far away from any friendly main elements(and even then sending out an AAV just to guard the rear of the chopper especially if there are two is possibly a waste of man power, but that can only be found through in game experience this is just my opinion) I think having the AA stationed near friendly Armour, flags or infantry would be a lot better. AAs in these areas could help the air assets with any enemy ACs as long as the ACs are doing runs nearby the friendly forces which is very likely, and the AA can guard the friendly units from enemy air attack even what the friendly ACs aren't in the area. The downside from what I read in your plan is that those AA(s) may not see any action unless the friendly attack chopper is tailed which can also end bad even with friendly AA nearby( AA splash can kill anyone of the choppers with flares everywhere, and the enemy AC can just fire to AAs from 800m out away from the ground AA and run, leaving the friendly AC dead and the ground AA can't do anything about it), but at the same time friendly ground forces can be getting with their AA support seaming to them in the middle of nowhere not supporting them when it can do both roles.


                • #9
                  Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

                  Originally posted by Namebot View Post

                  You sure Zoom affects the AA lock cone angle?
                  I'm about 95% sure. When I was zoomed in, it was a lot easier to get the lock on the helicopter, even though the flares were just deployed.


                  • #10
                    Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

                    I can vouch for Henry. The lock on ability relies on distance of center to the nearst heat source, by zooming you have more precision and can aim at the helicopter better.

                    I'd take this concept a bit further. CAS + Advanced Armor Assault Team, instead of having just AA in the second fire team Id suggest having at least one MBT and then another Medium-Heavy armored vehcile. This then allows for a really devestating 1-2 punch against defensive installations and reletively stationary enemy armor lines.

                    Standard INF/RECCE squad calls out an enemy line and gives time for armor positioning (if its the next flag this should already be nearly ready). If AA is in the area INF lazes them first or tries to take them out one their own. With AA nuetralized Armor/Anti-armor targets are next for CAS. Once armor/anti armor is downed the friendly armor team advances forward to mop up the fleshy remains.

                    If CAS for one reason or other is unable to take out the armor in their attack dive they at least have a general idea of the armor/anti armor positions and can relay them to the tanks if the RECCE team cannot.


                    In the end though all this Fireteam1+2 is is just making a standard doctrine of teamwork and asset use.

                    OT: When making INF fire teams one team needs to be the designated leader team or you just have two really cooperative squads.
                    No person can simply just be; they are what they do.


                    • #11
                      Re: CAS Squad - Attack Choppers - Discussion

                      Zooming does not affect the lock angle at all. You can check this in the code. Its probably just an illusion of being able to see the target better or not knowing when youve locked onto the flare off your screen.




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