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  • The Muttrah Withdrawl

    If you played in that round, you know what I'll mean by the title.

    I'll post more when I have time, but I would like to state for the record that I welcome a discussion of this round and the actions that occurred during it. If it is determined that such actions should be unlawful under TG rules, I will do my part to ensure that they are not repeated.

    However, I would also like to state that I invited my squad leaders, multiple times, to mutiny me if they felt my command was in error. Not only did they not mutiny me, they wouldn't let me stay on the island when everyone else evacuated, even though I insisted on my staying on the island to account for my failure.

    I would also like to state that I felt my orders were reasonable and logical based on the actions the opposing team took, which clearly communicated a desire to end the map as quickly as possible.
    Whether by air or on land
    foes crumble at my command.

    JaFaR Ironclad, at your service.




  • #2
    Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

    Ok
    doYouEvenLuftwaffe

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    • #3
      Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl
      1. A couple of guys on our team rushed Docks at the beginning of the round.
      2. They eventually died off and the you all managed to secure Docks.
      3. We captured North City and then assaulted Docks which led to us neutralizing it.
      4. We fended off your counter attack and secured Docks.
      5. Whining occurred.
      6. The U.S.M.C. eventually lost due to ticket bleed.
      7. Most U.S.M.C. players didn't end up sticking around for the next map.

      Note, I was AFK for a good 3/4 of the round while watching "The League", so I don't know all the details.

      There's no need to beat yourself up or be melodramatic about it. You lost, hard. It happens, move on.

      Rushing is lame, but it still happens. You just have to deal with it. Life sucks.
      CR8Z: "No, I've not been good, but as an American, I'm entitled to everything I want."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

        I'm gonna say that although rushing may not quite be against the rules type of thing, there's the old saying "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." In this case sure, the best way for the MEC to win this map is probably to rush docks, but a rush doesn't make for an enjoyable game and this is still a game, and most of the time rushing makes the round not worth the "GG" most rounds get. Now I wasn't on the ground as inf in this case so I dont know exact numbers but there was that small rush that I feel should definatley be strongly discouraged by the team that has such a squad.
        Last edited by Yrkidding; 11-19-2010, 01:52 AM.

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        • #5
          Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

          Originally posted by Silly_Savage View Post
          1. A couple of guys on our team rushed Docks at the beginning of the round.
          2. They eventually died off and the you all managed to secure Docks.
          3. We captured North City and then assaulted Docks which led to us neutralizing it.
          4. We fended off your counter attack and secured Docks.
          5. Whining occurred.
          6. The U.S.M.C. eventually lost due to ticket bleed.
          7. Most U.S.M.C. players didn't end up sticking around for the next map.

          Note, I was AFK for a good 3/4 of the round while watching "The League", so I don't know all the details.

          There's no need to beat yourself up or be melodramatic about it. You lost, hard. It happens, move on.

          Rushing is lame, but it still happens. You just have to deal with it. Life sucks.
          They said they were going to do it at the beginning of the round, and I voiced my opinion against it because of past topics on here about it.

          A few people rushed, not sure of the numbers, but they took two transport trucks. The rushers got wiped, but Im not sure what damage they did if any.
          I know my squad and another squad were leap frogging flags and capping pretty quick. We built a fob or two and moved out to attack.
          When the official attack on docks started, USMC had a fob with accessories built and ready. Im sure the defenses would have been better, but we did do a fairly organized attack to take it.


          I was all for forwarding it. I hate when people rush and I would rather have a decent fight. The only map I dont mind rushing on is Operation Barracuda.

          "All of you stay frickin high speed. All you stay on your frickin primaries and frickin slay bodies all day long. Good to go" -Combat Ninja lol

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

            honestly most of our team (MEC) caped the flags in order and stayed out of docks untill it was in play, it was just one squad. i dont approve of rushing docks, but you guys did get a cap on it, so im kind of on the fence about weather or not it our fault you couldent hold it. but i do agree that rushing docks is lame.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

              If one squad prevented the USMC to cap the first two flags then they would have lost anyway, it was just quicker now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                I don't think people do enough about rushing. People complain about it but never actually try and do the easy thing and counter it...

                Being a CATA and LP member I've done a lot of planning for skrims and tournament battles. Muttrah, Qwai and Beirut are important maps for starting deployment and every second counts... there are certain areas where you get to a position 3-5 seconds before the enemy etc. and these points are where the whole round will probably be decided. That's just PR. Before LP knew about the greatness of TG we used to go on random European servers where we would exploit to the max every weakness and strength with the starting deployment.
                I have screenshots of neutralising US main on qwai in 5 mins 30 seconds. Not boasting but that's how PR in European servers was played. When we came to TG we realised that rushing was looked down on and that we would have to be a little more thoughtful on our deployment.

                That said, I always prepare myself for an enemy rush, even on TG, yes even on TG!...
                Once I heard 'Oh LP rushing, that's a surprise'. I've refrained from rushing enemies first flags but still players think that if you're not going for your first flag, then you are rushing. Why do we need to have 30 guys to cap a flag that is right outside our main? The answer is you don't and actually 1 full squad is too much too. You only need two guys, the others can go to the next flag or build a fob somewhere. BUILD A FOB (I think 95% of PR players don't get this concept, of the 5% of players that will know the importance of a fob Bullseye takes for about 75% of them)

                So back to muttrah...

                USMC boats can get a full squad to docks cap range in 44 seconds from timer start I remember correctly (that's with 6 guys spawning and jumping in the boat, even quicker for 2 and rally or 2x2 and 12 guys on 2 rallies) while MEC trans truck takes about 55 seconds? I will go check some plans out and get the exact times we got. But, the point is that USMC can get to docks much quicker than MEC and have the flag pretty much capped (now with the super fast docks and NC cap time for USMC) before MEC can get there. On top of that, the boat can have a HAT/LAT/SAW to wreck any any sqd in a truck going for that SE hangar at docks.
                Also why don't USMC squads go for east/west CC at round start, get a squad defending in those T buildings and MEC is going to have a real though time (especially with delayed logis) getting the flag.
                Attack Huey perfect tool for anti rush also.

                Granted, getting into a truck and driving is a lot easier than getting a sqd spawning on the right spawn, jumping into the right boat/chopper and getting the pilot going to the right location fast. However, if you find yourself with a sqd ready, someone you know flying a chopper in SL mumble and still a good amount of time before round start. Maybe make a plan, rather than getting the squad to just spawn on carrier and get in a any chopper and see where this blue guy will take you. Or get take a boat and rush docks or the CC flags, boats are extremely quick.

                I really hope this thread was about rushing and I haven't just made a fool out of myself.

                Thanks
                Luda

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                  Jafar, I want to say; good job man. I've been wanting to do such a thing on that map for a while. You were playing along the realism clause in my opinion. Its much less realistic to rush head long into a heavily fortified position anyways. Of course if admins have an issue don't do it again, and I wont do it in the future.

                  Originally posted by sapientiea View Post
                  If one squad prevented the USMC to cap the first two flags then they would have lost anyway, it was just quicker now.
                  ^This.

                  Muttrah is, on a gameplay level, a poorly balanced map. Of course on paper it all looks lovely, and sometimes its a wonderful fight. It hinges way too much on docks, before and after the fight starts.

                  The MEC solution to this map is simply; Rush Docks. Even when North City is taken I've seen BTRs and Supply Trucks just rush blindly through the streets to set up ambushes in a USMC controlled flag that has an area of about a square kilometer! (not the flag itself but the whole docks area) Soon they kill all rear facing FOs due to a lack of personnel at the back lines and as a result an inability to use what AT assets they have.

                  Now sure, the USMC could stop them from doing such rushes, and I think they should attempt to do it more often. But the ease in which MEC time and time again perform such rushes successfully is too much IMO.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                    Only problem I had with the round was the attitude of the usmc team.

                    When it became clear you had lost docks you all quit trying. Everyone sat on the carrier to eithe tk one another or type disrespectfull comments to the mec side.

                    Sure there's suck a thing as being a poor winner, but the usmc side was full of poor loosers. Sometimes you loose. **** happend deal with it
                    doYouEvenLuftwaffe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                      1 squad rushed Docks last night. If you think that they'll be reading this thread then you're most likely wrong. I could tell you one person that was in that squad and a majority I hadn't even seen on TG before.

                      My squad had the glorious duty of capping the back flags. We built a FOB near West City, just south of the construction site, and then walked to the gas station at the round-about on the south end of North City. There, we waited for our apc transport to take us further north. By this time the initial rush was apparently taken care of, the US had capped docks, but the MEC concentrated assault on Docks had begun.

                      I believe my squad managed to kill maybe 4 people the entire round. In all honesty, we contributed absolutely nothing to our team that round as we were always behind the curve and late for every engagement.

                      The US team needs to aggressively roll out to more flags than just docks at the start. As Luda discusses above, this is really the only viable strategy that they have to win. You cannot get yourself in a situation where you are pinned with your backs to the water. If you do, then you've lost. We've all been on that side of the fence before.

                      If I recall, the MEC team suffered through an abysmal Kokan round just prior to Muttrah where the first cache was at the bottom of the map and we knew we would lose as soon as we saw it's location. Sure enough, we churned through over 200 tickets to get that cache down and we lost half of our squad leaders to rage quit before the first cache went down. Sure, we all have bad days and the game gets to you, but this is PR .95 and it is brutally harsh and has no forgiveness. If the dev team is striving for realism then perhaps they've hit upon it at this point, because just like in RL, if you f up then you're dead and that's it - game over.


                      EDIT: Re-reading this thread I feel compelled to add a little bit more. The last time I played muttrah I was on the US team. We flew in to North City to be greeted just outside the docks by at least 1 truck full of infantry who shot our chopper down on their way into docks. I don't recall myself or anyone else giving **** to the other team about their tactics nor saying crap about people in chat. It is times like this that I really feel as though the old TG has passed us by, and further infuriates me at the hypocrisy most people that play here demonstrate.

                      "You milsim guys are ruining the game."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                        Made us talk about a 'surrender' button again.
                        Actually I think it would be a good idea. There's nothing wrong in admitting defeat, and a SL or CO induced Surrender-vote could save everyone a load of time and frustration.
                        If 75% of one team is sure that they can't win, admitting defeat is an honorable option in my book. Hanging around doing stupid crap sure isn't helping. (Such a vote would have to be thought through of course.)

                        The situation yesterday reminded me of the japanese game 'Go'.
                        If a player faces inevitable defeat it's expected of him that he surrenders to not keep the winning player playing a already won game.
                        And if you look at it from the reality side... What commander would throw his troups into useless battle if retreat is the only viable option?
                        We may aim for hard battles and a brave attitude, but it also takes maturity and honor to admit your own mistakes and to grant your friends on the other side their well earned victory without leaving the whole server with 15 minutes of dead time.
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                          Fly to n city. Drop off 2 sqs and advance though taking out the mecs fb's. Move up to docks. Kill mec from their rear. Recap docks keep playing.
                          doYouEvenLuftwaffe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                            Good points Luda but let me ask you something. Why is rushing good? Is it because the people doing it hate the map and want to end it fast or is it only to brag after as it was a race? Sure it gives you a big advantage, but isnt' it more fun to win a hard fought round than one won by rushing?
                            I can understand doing it on tournaments but not on every day public games. I like PR, i like the maps so i want to play them more than 20 minutes. With rushing it feels like vanilla where only speed and timing counts.
                            I might just be getting lazy but i like to take it slow and having a chance to correct mistakes.


                            [AAR]
                            I feel this particular case was different. We had a strong opponent yet we managed to beat them for 2-3 rounds. I know how in this case people get pissed wanting to get revenge, this happened last night. They exploited our biggest weakness, lack of speed and organization. Even though Jafar stepped up to CO it was a bit late for the plan so he missed the southern entrance of docks. This in turn made me die building an FB there and letting a full squad and an apc flank most of our team positioned north while the main mec attack came from the west.

                            Spreading out our team to all three entrances would've been a better move but squads rushing and the too late apc support never left us enough time to set up proper defences.
                            Once we lost docks we retreated to the carrier to discuss the tactical outcomes of that 400+ loss on muttrah.

                            Funny enough, next map silent eagle they rushed our first flag again pushing us back to the missile silo ungerground. CAS was very good though so that and SLs changing made us turn the battle and win by 150+ tickets.
                            I was gunning for [ODS]Murphy in a tank, the lack of hatkits and his driver skills made my day :)

                            It was a fun night.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Muttrah Withdrawl

                              Using Ludacris' suggestion - Use 2 boat squads (one with the CO in it) have only have helo's drop crates near docks, have the APC's in the water enroute.

                              - Hydra Huey does not need to be airborne - I will probably get angry PM's for saying this, but it is true, the hydra huey doesn't need to be in the air, it can even *gasp* still be on the carrier empty.

                              - No need for a 2 man locked CAS team to be in the NW hills - Everyone knows this spot, everyone knows that a FOB will go up around this spot, you can always go up to the hills after docks is capped, those hills will be there, construction plans for the golf course and resort condominiums have been put on hold.

                              When the boat squads reach the shore, have the CO drop the commander rally = 14 players/Rest of the team spawning

                              Or have one squad of those 14 extra players en route via helo to the city.

                              Docks capped, docks defended, All is well. APC's arrival and ready to start the advance into the city.


                              *Note - in order for this to properly work infantry squads will have to not take specialty kits right off the bat, yes, that is correct you can't lolly gag and grab that sniper rifle that will win the entire round for your team, there isn't enough time to grab it and go to Home Docks Depot.
                              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                              Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                              Level I HazMat Technician
                              NYS EMT-B
                              Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                              sigpic




                              Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
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                              Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                              Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                              We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

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